Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[Growelly]

I take a short vacation from the online world to visit with family, and what happens?? Another Josh crisis. :pink-shock:

I am amazed, appalled, and (in a schadenfreudenlich way) delighted. (It's been years since I studied German, so I'm not sure I made the adjective correctly from the noun. And if it's not a real adjective, it should be--it applies so well to me.)

Here's my comment (which, after doing a search, I don't think anyone has yet made): How on earth did Smuggar have TIME for all this? Think of what was involved for him:

First, he obviously spent a lot of time online. He had to learn about OK Cupid and Ashley Madison; he may have chosen them over other possible online cheating "options." He had to create his profiles. Then he had to deal with whatever replies he got--if he got any. (And I gather that some responses are real and some are invented, at least in the case of A.M.) I'm assuming he did get replies, at least on A.M.; that would explain why he maintained his membership and renewed it.

Then he had to decide which message(s) to reply to, and decide how to reply.

Then, assuming he and the responder were both interested, he had to meet with her. And unless she had the "lovenest" he was hoping for, he (and maybe she) had to arrange for a place to meet.

Then there are the actual meetings themselves, which I will not allow myself to imagine (since I think Smuggars is just as unattractive as his Howdy-Doody-Daddy). If he really likes "cuddles" and "foreplay", then each meeting will be longer than, say, five minutes. Let's say, a minimum of an hour(?). And he had to travel to and from them.

And maybe he did this repeatedly.

And he did this while he had two, then three young children, a wife whose whole world revolves around him, and a job that (even though he shares its morally repugnant goals and premises) seems to have been stressful, at least at the beginning, judging by what we saw in the early shows about their lives in DC.

How the heck did he manage to fit all this in to his life?

Knowing the family he comes from, I doubt that Smuggar is a model of good time management. So I'm baffled as to how he did it.

Easy.

He didn't have any real job in the sense that he was important only because he was a Duggar. It's not likely he was writing policy or even his own speeches. He just had to show up.

Lots of free time.

Also, we've seen that he isn't the most active parent - for fucks sake, he took a nap while his wife was in labor. Anytime he gets the Mkids without Anna, it was made out to be Wow - what a great dad he is! (Though Jana was probably just around the corner).

In short, he was raised in an atmosphere where he was the bestest, got himself a wife who is a fundie wet dream whereas being a mother and helpmeet are concerned, and he found himself with a lot of free time.

[browncoatslytherin]

I second VR. I would also like to add that I would not mind if people put a hard stop on any comments wishing this situation would get worse. It's completely inappropriate, and says more about you as a poster than it does about Smugger & Co.

qft.

i won't lie that i was tinkled pink about this whole thing being exposed and the duggars getting taken down a peg. it still sucks for the innocent people involved, but it brought me a little joy that a hypocrite was definitively uncovered (and confessed!).

however, i don't wish anything worse to happen, for anna and the m-kids' sake. she has more than enough to deal with and a lot to process (which is going to be even harder without good critical thinking skills).

[nokidsmom]

Count me in the camp that feels very, very sorry for Anna and exponentially sorrier for the M kids.

I was raised in a very liberal home by feminist parents. I am educated. And seven years ago, in my early 30s, found myself in a relationship with a recovering alcoholic. We married, I got pregnant, he relapsed. It took FIVE YEARS of escalating emotional and verbal abuse, much of it IN FRONT of my daughters from my first marriage and our son, for me to FINALLY work through the emotional mess and decide to leave. The children and I are moving out on August 31. (Side note: reading here over the past couple of years has played a big part in me reconnecting with my inner strength, so THANK YOU all!)

Never in a million trillion years would I have ever thought I would become a person who stayed in that kind of an environment. Who exposed her children to that. But I did. I can't even begin to imagine what it is like for those of you who grew up in fundie households and struggled to break free of that. Bottom line, I don't think Anna has the emotional or coping skills to even begin to process any of this in a healthy way, thanks to her upbringing. She may be a full grown adult, a mother, etc., but she has the emotional maturity of an adolescent. And that's by design of her cult.

Good that you found the strength to leave your situation and hope all goes well for you and your kids.

Anna is probably in a state of not believing this is her life right now. I can't fathom how she can even begin to process this.

[LainieR]

I second VR. I would also like to add that I would not mind if people put a hard stop on any comments wishing this situation would get worse. It's completely inappropriate, and says more about you as a poster than it does about Smugger & Co.

Agreed. You can't go poor Anna one minute and then rub your hands in glee hoping this shitstorm gets worse.

[polecat]

I don't believe that you have to sleep with an individual before marriage. I think that having a strong friendship and bond before marriage is key. Sex won't always be there.

I think in Josh's case, he thought he was smart. He could do it and not get caught or have to answer to it. I don't think it had anything to do with his lack of anything other than respect for his wife. I think he's got an addiction issue. He needs professional help.

I agree that you don't have to have sex with someone to know if you're compatible sexually. I don't think there's anything wrong with sex before marriage, but it's not absolutely necessary, either. Do what is right for you.

But I disagree that he has an addiction issue. Fundies always go straight to "porn addiction" or whatever when they're caught with their hands in the cookie jars and their pants around the ankle. What Josh has is a crappy upbringing, an unhealthy narcissistic attitude and a stark lack of self-awareness. And yes, he definitely needs professional help.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I know a lot of stories from within the bible belt here that there is a first born about 7/8 months born after marriage and the baby is 8 lbs. And the next is that weight at 40 weeks :shhh:

My gramma had a saying that the first baby can come at any time - it's the rest of them that take 9 months!

She hated when people would count backwards from birth to the wedding date.

Took me years to figure out what any of that meant as I was mildly shocked that my Gramma knew people could have sex before marriage! I told my mom and she laughed and said every generation thinks they are the first to have discovered sex but we wouldn't be here if our ancestors hadn't figured out what went where. :lol:

[HarryPotterFan]

My gramma had a saying that the first baby can come at any time - it's the rest of them that take 9 months!

She hated when people would count backwards from birth to the wedding date.

Took me years to figure out what any of that meant as I was mildly shocked that my Gramma knew people could have sex before marriage! I told my mom and she laughed and said every generation thinks they are the first to have discovered sex but we wouldn't be here if our ancestors hadn't figured out what went where. :lol:

That's kind of like how I was extremely shocked the first time I heard my grandma made a sex joke :lol: she said she's been around longer than me and has heard more things than I have.

[smittykins]

I remember a letter to either Dear Abby or Ann Landers about a supposed 7-month, 10-pound baby. Her response: "The baby was on time. The wedding was late." :lol:

[HoneyBunny]

Regarding what the future holds for the Josh Duggar family...my hypotheses:

Anna will not leave Josh. Fundies believe that these are the times for which the wedding vows were intended. I also think she's had the example of many, many who have gone before her down this same road.

Remember how many humpers, at the time Josh's molestation of his sisters was revealed, adamantly stated that this happens in LOTS of families? Most of us were WTF?, but I believe that, in certain conservative Christian circles, that really is more commonplace, a predictable outcome of their weird upbringing with regard to sex (never before marriage, constantly after).

Similarly, I believe that porn addiction and marital affairs are more common place in conservative Christian circles, for the same reason. For us, Josh's marital affairs are a big deal; for them, it's called Thursday. It's only a big deal because they are all public personalities. Anna will persevere like so many before her have done, especially as she sees herself as a role model.

But, these are the Duggars, and there is money to be made, especially considering the apparent prevalence of marital infidelity and porn addiction in their culture. I see a book, a book tour, and speaking circuit in the J/M and the J/A futures. They will come out of this as heroes; meanwhile, behind the scenes there will be an understanding and acceptance that nothing will have changed.

[3_and_counting]

I agree that you don't have to have sex with someone to know if you're compatible sexually. I don't think there's anything wrong with sex before marriage, but it's not absolutely necessary, either. Do what is right for you.

But I disagree that he has an addiction issue. Fundies always go straight to "porn addiction" or whatever when they're caught with their hands in the cookie jars and their pants around the ankle. What Josh has is a crappy upbringing, an unhealthy narcissistic attitude and a stark lack of self-awareness. And yes, he definitely needs professional help.

I wasn't talking about porn, I was talking about sex, in general. He is addicted to sex and probably to the high he would get by successfully having an unnoticed affair.

[formergothardite]

I don't believe that you have to sleep with an individual before marriage. I think that having a strong friendship and bond before marriage is key. Sex won't always be there.

I think in Josh's case, he thought he was smart. He could do it and not get caught or have to answer to it. I don't think it had anything to do with his lack of anything other than respect for his wife. I think he's got an addiction issue. He needs professional help.

I don't think you have to, but I don't think that it will ruin a marriage if you do and can let a couple know if they are sexually incompatible. To some people this would be a deal breaker and it is better to find out before marriage. I think that the way he was raised played into him not respecting his wife and the way he treated her. Treating women as objects who are always under the authority of a man can easily lead to a guy growing up thinking it is okay to treat his wife poorly. It could be that he would have always been a major jerk, but the way he was raised couldn't have helped curb these tendencies.

[justbecause]

How many late nights at the office did he lie about? "Gosh, honey, the gays are still trying to be equal so I have to attend an emergency meeting tonight." .... "I know, I know, but what am I supposed to do?" .... "Give the kids a kiss goodnight for me and hopefully I'll be home by midnight. Pray for us!" What other valid-seeming excuses could he have used?

Also, how many times was he alone in D.C. (or anywhere else) when Anna and the kids were in Arkansas, Florida, or Illinois visiting family?

Do you really think he feels that he has to account for his time at all to Anna? I think he made a few excuses in the beginning and then just built off of that. If he feels that he 'owns' her per se. why wouldn't he just tell her to go to bed and he'll get home when he's done with whatever he has work.

I don't think after the first few times he really had to say too much. He was probably like "i'm getting paid good money at this job, and this is part of the job, I'm doing it for us "babe""

[browncoatslytherin]

Regarding what the future holds for the Josh Duggar family...my hypotheses:

Anna will not leave Josh. Fundies believe that these are the times for which the wedding vows were intended. I also think she's had the example of many, many who have gone before her down this same road.

Remember how many humpers, at the time Josh's molestation of his sisters was revealed, adamantly stated that this happens in LOTS of families? Most of us were WTF?, but I believe that, in certain conservative Christian circles, that really is more commonplace, a predictable outcome of their weird upbringing with regard to sex (never before marriage, constantly after).

Similarly, I believe that porn addiction and marital affairs are more common place in conservative Christian circles, for the same reason. For us, Josh's marital affairs are a big deal; for them, it's called Thursday. It's only a big deal because they are all public personalities. Anna will persevere like so many before her have done, especially as she sees herself as a role model.

But, these are the Duggars, and there is money to be made, especially considering the apparent prevalence of marital infidelity and porn addiction in their culture. I see a book, a book tour, and speaking circuit in the J/M and the J/A futures. They will come out of this as heroes; meanwhile, behind the scenes there will be an understanding and acceptance that nothing will have changed.

i don't know that i can agree that the adultery is commonplace thing. not that it doesn't happen at all, but in my ati and ifb experiences, adultery was still considered a huge scandal.

i agree that, after some time, they'll probably try to spin it and profit off of it in some way. they'll try to become fundie darlings again, and it just may work.

[crazysnark]

I am hoping this will, in the long run ,be a good thing for the family. Not that I blame fully Jim Bob and Michelle for Josh's actions but I do think the way he was raised played a part in this whole situation. They sheltered him, shamed him when he masturbated, never let him look on the Internet, and basically told him that his wife would fill all of his sexual wants and desires. Which is not true.Married people still lust after others just not all act upon it. Hopefully they take notes from the Bates family and reevaluate their stances on certain things and choices like Kelly and Gil did when Zach's courtship failed with Sarah.

P.s I am NOT a Bates leg humper. I do however applaud them for admitting when their decisions negatively effected their child and then did something to change it.

[nana sew dear]

I think what's really sad is who know's what turns that creep on. He may have wanted someone else for any reason. Some kind of weird fettish or something. He may have just wanted to experience sex with someone else. Who knows with this weird family. Maybe it was the 'sex toys' thing.

I am no expert, but I've noticed that Josh has some patterns of behavior.

He confesses and then goes back and does the same thing. Then he confesses again. Jesus must have a callous from all of the face-palms. :doh: I think Josh gets some perverse pleasure from the whole game he's made of it.

Also, Josh is turning 'sneaky' into an art form. Because this sneaky behavior was coupled with his budding sex drive, he really gets a thrill from the process.

I'm not a psychologist, these are just my conclusions. If only his parents had actually PARENTED! Likely if he'd been seen by a professional earlier, this might not have happened.

Or, he's just a big douche bag that makes horrible choices. I'm sure he ran to the closest, family approved girl to marry and have sex. That has to make Anna feel terrible.

[HarryPotterFan]

I remember a letter to either Dear Abby or Ann Landers about a supposed 7-month, 10-pound baby. Her response: "The baby was on time. The wedding was late." :lol:

A wizard is never late! Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.

Edited because autocorrect is stupid

[FundieFarmer]

A wizard is never late! Nor is he early. He stories precisely when he means to.

Calvinists would say, "A Calvinist is neither early nor late. He simply arrives when he is predestined to do so." :lol:

[Iamthe20thDuggarKid]

I wasn't talking about porn, I was talking about sex, in general. He is addicted to sex and probably to the high he would get by successfully having an unnoticed affair.

I agree. I think Josh needs more sex than Anna or any other wife could give him, especially when she's busy caring for three (and now four) little rugrats. He gets some of his satisfaction from porn (and maybe some self pleasure while watching it) and maybe some from affairs with other women. I'm not even sure its a sexual compatibility issue with Anna either. I also think that Josh is somewhat emotionally immature, which may or may not be because of his upbringing.

[VelociRapture]

A wizard is never late! Nor is he early. He stories precisely when he means to.

A partial quote from Gandalf. . . on a thread about Josh Duggar. . . concerning his admission that he sought affairs. . .

I'm calling it now. The Rapture is here. Everyone! Grab your tinfoil hats and join me in the bunker for drinks!

[freehannie]

Polecat said

But I disagree that he has an addiction issue. Fundies always go straight to "porn addiction" or whatever when they're caught with their hands in the cookie jars and their pants around the ankle. What Josh has is a crappy upbringing, an unhealthy narcissistic attitude and a stark lack of self-awareness. And yes, he definitely needs professional help.

I completely agree. Josh has been raised to create a persona that is acceptable within his fundamentalist community at which he clearly excelled. He said all the right things all the while having a double life where he behaved selfishly and recklessly ignoring the needs of his family. Instead of claiming that Satan caused his misdeeds, he needs to get honest and recognize that it's his own sense of entitlement that was fueling a lot of this. Also I don't think it was only his or Anna's inexperience or fundamentalist upbringing that led to his dissatisfaction with his life but rather his belief that he deserves to have whatever he wants whenever he wants it. (Which I guess is partially a product of the patriarchal crap hie was raised in). Anna could never satisfy that nor should she. She should leave him and create a life for herself and her kids free from this crap. If he could at least be honest about the fact that he is just a selfish jackass there might be some hope of him changing but I don't see it yet.

[refugee]

I hope this doesn't break any rules (please delete if it does), but I'm copying this over from the previous thread because I posted it right before that thread closed.

I always figured his job duties consisted only of being a public face, attending events and delivering speeches written by others. He probably thought he'd be doing real work, drafting polices and strategies, etc. But then he was told "let the people with actual educations handle that." If he really is smart (as people have said) that would be very painful for him.

This brings up some of the personal anger I have been working through. Not ATI, but detoxing from pat-riarchy. (calling it that because they have a lot of "pat" answers, and because it seems a lot of public figures in that crowd like to pat female body parts)

Part of the promise that drew us in was that we were going to change the world. We were going to make it over into a bright, shiny place full of promise. I know ATI families who seemed to think that they were providing a superior education to their children -- I know that the general patriarchal homeschool crowd was told that we were providing a superior education to our children (just look at Brian Ray's "statistics"!), and that our children would be the leaders, poets, writers, filmmakers, and artists of the next generation.

I didn't see the (what is the adjective that goes here?) underbelly of the ideology until we were so entrenched that it was agonizing and difficult to find our way to the exit. Maybe, as I've been told about Masonry and other secret societies (don't know if it's true, just what I've been told) there are higher levels of knowledge. So the grunts at the bottom only hear the shining vision. They don't hear about the uglier things, like the idea of re-instating the OT death penalties (stoning, anyone?) and other Rushdooney fantasies. (Rushdooney was a name I overheard dropped in private conversations among "leaders" as I passed by on some grunt task or another. When I finally looked into his writings, I was shocked and dismayed.)

So all these ATI kids (and a lot of other fundies, apparently) have been told about their "superior" education, and when they grow up, they find out they've been equipped, maybe, to be street sweepers, hole diggers, stable muckers. At best. It's like that study a few years back that showed US kids had the lowest test performance and the highest opinion of their abilities, of school kids around the world.

G-d! Bill Gothard (and a lot of other jerks) were living a fantasy, and dragged a whole lot of people in with them! And people I know are still living the fantasy, as their families, and others, fall apart around them!

(If we were living a sci-fi/fantasy story there would be an evil glamour cast over the land, that made people look at reality and see something completely different.)

I guess a mercy is that dh and I were both college educated, and avid readers, and somehow managed to teach our children to love to learn. They will do well in the world, with their abilities... if they can get past the mental health issues engendered by growing up fundie.

My kids may yet become leaders, poets, writers, defenders of the underdog... but they'll do it without any "help" from the pat-riarchs, who would have confined them to the kitchen and bedroom.

(At least they will have a choice regarding kitchen and bedroom, and not an obligation...)

[smackyabum]

Going back to the "close insider" speculation. It seems to me like it'd be Jessa (either directly or indirectly). She seems hungry for money and she's probably being paid for the information. OR it's Amy. I have long thought Famy was throwing them under the bus to tabloids. She seems like she needs to feel important and likes to piggy back off their fame so if a tabloid worker were to pump her up even a little I bet she'd spill the beans pretty quick. I don't think they'd let her in the house right now just to hang out because of how crazy everything is. So I think she's been texting one of the 19 in the house (like Jessa) for updates and then relaying the overall tone to the tabloids. Just my thoughts on that topic.

I saw a yahoo article that was written the same day as the Joshley Madison scandal broke, but I think it was published earlier in the day before the JM news broke. I have seen similar articles referenced a few times on this thread so I won't re-post it but I think it's worth noting that the article was stating that JB&M are distancing themselves from their son because of the molestation scandal. So if they were already abandoning him and then this happened, it really makes me fear for Josh's safety. He's losing everything he's ever known and he hasn't had many bad things happen to him in his sheltered lifetime. Most "normal" people don't have to go through what he's been through lately and I'd imagine if these things happened to me I'd have a really hard time coping. So I can't even imagine the thoughts running through Johsie's mind right now. I hope one of them isn't suicide. And I don't mean for this to sound like I'm defending him. I totally think he's a real tool. But even though he's an adult I don't think he has the mindset of an adult due to his poor upbringing. So I still place a lot of blame on boobstick & DQ.

Lastly, my local news was just showing a story on the AM hack and the last bit was saying the reality tv star Josh Duggar was found to be using the site. But I guess the news anchor has never heard of the Duggars before because he called him Josh Dooger. :lol:

[MoonFace]

Duggars Said to Seek New Reality Show — Counseling Sex Abuse Victims

That was dated August 19

Here is the story

https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... -abuse-vic

[polecat]

I wasn't talking about porn, I was talking about sex, in general. He is addicted to sex and probably to the high he would get by successfully having an unnoticed affair.

I was talking about addiction in general. And I think in this case, it's nonsense. It's an excuse.

It's just something I've seen play out over and over and over again in fundies, which definitely colors my opinion. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

[Lewy]

Not that it excuses cheating in any way, but this is what happens when you tell boys they are going to tell if they masturbate and force them to get married just to be able to talk to a woman privately and kiss her, let alone have sex.

He's doing the same experimentation most guys in their twenties do. Difference is most guys aren't pushed into marriages where they can't truly judge compatibility.....and sexual compatibility IS a big part of whether or not a relationship will work. Josh and Anna might like totally different things when it comes to a sexual relationship and they didn't get to work that out until they were already married....

Josh is a horrible person but I do think ATI/IBLP has a lot to answer for here. They're not 'protecting' anyone with these rules, what they're doing is making it different for young people to truly know if their relationship will work.