Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[sisterwives]

if anyone knows Josh's mistress--can we please get her to join FJ?

:stir-pot:

God no, I don't think I'm ready to hear about the sex toy bubble bath! Or worse, the ~sexy talk. Never thought I'd ever imagine Josh Duggar doing any of that kinda stuff.

[martian]

This culture is built on breaking their children because they follow the Pearls handbook. I can imagine that such a child will have an immense feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, so that when the moment finally arrives that they can have power, in whatever form it comes, they grab at it with both hands. In that light, the fact that it can lead to absolutely reprehensible behavior (molesting your sisters) and infidelity and unfaithfulness isn't that surprising. So yes, in a sense I have sympathy for all the children (and now grown adults) that are/were subjected to such a childhood.

Do I condone or diminish the atrocity and moral deviance of Josh's acts themselves? Absolutely not. While I admit that of course the individuals have their own culpability for their chosen actions, I fully blame JB and M (I can't bring myself to call them parents) for creating these stunted and broken kids.

Who knows if Josh would have done all these things if he hadn't been broken as a kid?

I've been thinking a lot about the ways kids cope with living in abusive environments. What do you do when your parents demand access to all of your innermost thoughts so that their control, their ownership of you is absolutely, inescapably pervasive? Do you attempt to shield yourself by becoming a smooth liar, a hypocrite with both a public and a secret persona? Or do you buckle under and join them in rooting out every unacceptable thought and opinion and polish your inner self into a mirror that your parents can see their own reflections in? I guess I wonder if in the intensity of this kind of abusive environment you can only survive by becoming Josh or, maybe, Jill or even Anna.

As much as I agree that Anna went into this marriage like a lamb to slaughter believing that she had faithfully fulfilled her side of the Gothardite bargain and now would get her happily ever after, what if Josh equally bought into all of the empty guarantees? Josh is troubled but likely just as indoctrinated as Anna. There's really no evidence that he didn't also think that this holy marriage would do what it was supposed to and make him a godly, respectable, fulfilled young patriarch. Maybe he even thought that with his desires "righteously fulfilled" his inner and outer selves would finally be reconciled. Josh as much or more than anyone probably thought marriage to Anna was the answer to his prayers. The video of their wedding that's been posted with him singing his promise to be faithful is just tragic to me. And once it all turned to ash for him, what did he have? The easiest way out, the way that doesn't anger or disappoint his parents or Anna, was to lie and hide like he always has. Maybe he's so damaged that it doesn't even seem wrong to him to do so, I don't know.

To be clear, I think the only way forward that would give Josh a chance at some kind of functional adult and selfhood is for him to take full responsibility and be accountable for what he's done. But I do lay this on Michelle and Jim Bob's doorstep. I think Josh is a very, very damaged man. I hate that they get to back away slowly and wash their hands of it, all "Welp, we taught him better." Because, no, no they absolutely didn't.

[javafriend]

Question: Why did JBob and Shell give Anna and Josh a gift certificate for marriage counseling if they didn't know/suspect that something was going wrong in J and A's marriage? I think they might not have been as shocked as they said. Maybe they didn't know the extent of the problem but they knew something.

Ride with me on the ISB to Oakbrook, Illinois. Anna and newborn are sent to stay with Pris and David to get out of the spotlight. While she is there, she is given some personal counseling by Gothard. He explains to her that the Duggars are such wonderful Christians that Satan tried to take them down by making Josh molest his sisters. But the mighty Christian family overcame. This made Satan hella mad. Then Josh went to DC and became a powerful voice for Jeebus - and Satan had a giant hissy and took Josh and family down even harder. All because they are such amazing examples of Christianity! (not because Josh is a jerk with no impulse control).

AS they sit on a couch with his hands running over her knees, Gotherd asks Anna to describe, in detail, her sex life with Josh. Then, Gothard pulls out some ATI diagrams to explain to Anna how she has been (reader's choice): bitter, unfeminine, unsubmissive or defrauding. By forgiving Josh, she can make amends for all the things she has done wrong. A tearful Anna collapses into his goaty old arms as he cops a cheap feel.

Later that evening (who am I kidding - this part probably happened the minute the reports surfaced) Goatherd "counsels" Josh by having him describe, in detail, every extramarital encounter he has had. Gothard tells Josh that Satan went after him because he is such a godly man. Gothard assures Josh that he will be waiting by the phone whenever Josh wants to talk about inappropriate sexual activities.

[Firiel]

Well, to be fair, I'm sure anyone seems dumb next to an "exceptionally smart person" whose skills were fostered from birth by intensive interaction with adults with multiple college degrees. ;)

Her son was also speaking nearly full sentences by 9 months and reading the newspaper and explaining the articles by the age of two, so it runs in the family.

[VelociRapture]

God no, I don't think I'm ready to hear about the sex toy bubble bath! Or worse, the ~sexy talk. Never thought I'd ever imagine Josh Duggar doing any of that kinda stuff.

:shock: :brain-bleach: :wtf:

What has been imagined, cannot be unimagined. . . I blame you both for my nightmares tonight! :lol:

[MalteseBaby]

What? No one is saying they don't support Anna Duggar leaving, just that we don't blame her for being so brainwashed that she doesn't see it as an option.

You created your own argument here. I didn't say that FJ members were not supporting Anna's right to choose what is best for her childrens' future and for her own self- esteem and long- term happiness.

I simply stated what positive statements might do if they reach Anna, which is to help her see that she has personal power and survive this debacle and build a new life in time. I wasn't arguing with anyone at all.

Please.

[Firiel]

You created your own argument here. I didn't say that FJ members were not supporting Anna's right to choose what is best for her childrens' future and for her own self- esteem and long- term happiness.

I simply stated what positive statements might do if they reach Anna, which is to help her see that she has personal power and survive this debacle and build a new life in time. I wasn't arguing with anyone at all.

Please.

You sure seem desperate to defend someone you think is a total imbecile.

Oh, who am I kidding. I'm foe'd.

EDIT because someone already did what I asked before I even asked! :)

[MoonFace]

I wonder what 'professional counselors' the Duggars are bringing in to support Josh, Anna, and the family (or what Christian knights they're mustering to storm Satan's hidden fortress).

I fear the 'professionals' will be Chris and Anne Hogan of the Noble Call Institute. Chris Hogan, remember, was the relationship coach genius who put that piece of rebar at JB's throat in the 19Kids episode "Love & Marriage," telling JB that "it's standing between you and your spouse."

Maybe they can get Jim and Tammy Bakker to counsel them. :oops:

[MalteseBaby]

Yeah. . . I don't see any comments along those lines either. A lot of comments - my own included - have stated that we don't blame her for wanting to leave, wanting to stay, or not realizing she has legitimate other options. . . but nothing that says we don't support Anna if she does choose to leave.

I never spoke for anyone but myself. i said what I thought. I have not said " other FJ posters think Anna needs to support Josh" or anything.

This is not a " She said" and " She said the opposite" situation. We all likely want a better life for Anna than to be Josh's servant.

I think this is totally not being read with clarity at this point in time. A person can make a positive statement of their own. It does NOT mean that other peoples' statements were negative or non- supportive.

My words are independent of anything else.

[Vivi_music]

OR, there's no "close insider" and it's simply somebody random from the town or publishing company blowing smoke out of their ass.

It's happened before.

OR, I bet there's no ''close insider'' and tabloids are reading FJ and using speculation as a reliable source.

It's happened before. ;) ;) ;)

It's not like we don't already know other people read on here (other fundies, journalists, etc.).

[VelociRapture]

Thanks for your post, VR. I am NOT blaming Anna, Josh was and is the guilty party here. Anna didn't ask for this and she deserved better. But, it has happened and life moves in one direction- forward.

Looking backwards is not productive when the situation is as bad as this situation is concerning the facts are about Josh Duggar's actions. I'm a " looking forward" type of thought process individual.

I have seen women killed by their non-loving spouses because the woman wouldn't leave him. I've dealt with the aftermath of so many murders where the woman stayed in a loveless or otherwise extremely dysfunctional relationship because she needed love, she needed him, she needed the security. And what she got in the end was a coffin.

My own best friend of 25 years' was murdered last year by a man with a propensity for cheating. She confronted him one AM with a friend of hers with her. He shot both of them, their bodies so riddled with bullets that the state forensic pathologist could not count the bullet wounds.

I grieve for her every day. She is the one who helped me leave a bad marriage many years ago, and I was not able to be there to help her. We texted every day but we lived 1000 miles away from each other. I had no idea she was in a dangerous situation.

Because I know how badly these types of situations can get in a hurry, I definitely do think the best place for Anna right now is far away from Josh's reach. They each need time and resources to help each one understand who they are as individuals, to get past the shock to be able to make good decisions.

Blame has no place in the present. The facts are ( probably mostly) known.

If Anna chooses to stay, as I think she probably will, then 4 small children are doomed to a very sad life in fundieland with a cheater as a dad and a mom who has to be devastated at the present time and probably will never trust him again.

I didn't mean for my initial comments to call out any specific posters. If you feel I was targeting you or anyone else, please know that is not the case at all. My posts were meant for the community at large and were a plea for people to keep all the facts in mind while posting. Its very easy to get swept up in outrage and target the wrong people (for instance, Anna.)

I'm sorry to hear about your friends. I can't imagine what that must have been like for you. I have no experience with domestic abuse myself - I've been very fortunate in that sense. The fact is though, that there are posters here who are under the assumption that it would be extremely simple and easy for Anna to leave - and that isn't the case. The resources are there yes, but Anna needs to want to leave and realize it is a valid option for her. At the moment, I suspect she doesn't want or realize either of those things.

I absolutely agree that the healthiest thing for both of them would be time and distance right now. I think most posters here would agree with that. It would allow them both time to think and process and understand what they want better. Most normal couples would probably do this and the individuals involved would likely come out stronger for it, regardless of whether they remained a couple or not. . .

But Anna and Josh aren't a normal couple - their faith doesn't allow for them to consider things like divorce or separation or birth control. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they truly did not realize divorce was an option in this situation. And that makes me sad.

It also makes me angry - not at Josh and Anna, but at the Duggar parents, the Keller parents, and Gothard. And one day, if they decide to teach their children the same things they were taught, my anger will turn on Josh and Anna as well - we have twelve years to go before Mack is an adult though, so it'll be a while before we know for sure.

[GodsKnickers]

Maybe they can get Jim and Tammy Bakker to counsel them. :oops:

Tammy, from beyond the grave? :lol:

[purple_summer]

I've been thinking a lot about the ways kids cope with living in abusive environments. What do you do when your parents demand access to all of your innermost thoughts so that their control, their ownership of you is absolutely, inescapably pervasive? Do you attempt to shield yourself by becoming a smooth liar, a hypocrite with both a public and a secret persona? Or do you buckle under and join them in rooting out every unacceptable thought and opinion and polish your inner self into a mirror that your parents can see their own reflections in? I guess I wonder if in the intensity of this kind of abusive environment you can only survive by becoming Josh or, maybe, Jill or even Anna.

As much as I agree that Anna went into this marriage like a lamb to slaughter believing that she had faithfully fulfilled her side of the Gothardite bargain and now would get her happily ever after, what if Josh equally bought into all of the empty guarantees? Josh is troubled but likely just as indoctrinated as Anna. There's really no evidence that he didn't also think that this holy marriage would do what it was supposed to and make him a godly, respectable, fulfilled young patriarch. Maybe he even thought that with his desires "righteously fulfilled" his inner and outer selves would finally be reconciled. Josh as much or more than anyone probably thought marriage to Anna was the answer to his prayers. The video of their wedding that's been posted with him singing his promise to be faithful is just tragic to me. And once it all turned to ash for him, what did he have? The easiest way out, the way that doesn't anger or disappoint his parents or Anna, was to lie and hide like he always has. Maybe he's so damaged that it doesn't even seem wrong to him to do so, I don't know.

To be clear, I think the only way forward that would give Josh a chance at some kind of functional adult and selfhood is for him to take full responsibility and be accountable for what he's done. But I do lay this on Michelle and Jim Bob's doorstep. I think Josh is a very, very damaged man. I hate that they get to back away slowly and wash their hands of it, all "Welp, we taught him better." Because, no, no they absolutely didn't.

I know someone like this. Their mother was the leader of the group we were in and they were constantly held up as the golden child. The double life started early (think age 10/11), by 14/15 they were running away (and sleeping with lord only knows who) only for everyone else to be blamed and for them to be framed as the "victim" of our actions. It's been almost 10 years and their life is still just as messed up (unstable and co-dependent to say the least) but of course that's because we were "unfaithful" and led her astray.

Their sibling didn't at all act out in the same way and was a super sweet kid. I'm sure they have their own issues however we haven't kept in touch.

[MoonFace]

Tammy, from beyond the grave? :lol:

Yes! She has been enjoying a closer walk with Jeebus so she can counsel Joshie and Anna the bestest! :dance:

[MoonFace]

Tammy, from beyond the grave? :lol:

YES! She's been enjoying a closer walk with Jeebus so she could give GOOD advice!

[Sparkle]

This thread...I was only 25% through thread 2 when I wanted to comment and realized I couldn't because we were on thread 3! D:

That being said--

As to him saying he disappointed Jesus or whatever--so he finally got the meaning of JOY, huh? Jesus, others, then yourself. Took him long enough.

Spinning this into a TV show--how long has Kendra spun Hank's indiscretions with a transsexual into airtime? If TLC doesn't pick it up, WE will :|

*back to thread 2*

[Sundaymorning]

I have to say, I wonder what Joshs mistresses think about this scandal.

I mean, sure, there could be some famewhores who just wait to get to the press.

But there also could be women who were cheating on their partner, and now fear that they will be exposed too.

And imagine if some unfortunate single girl met him on his ok cupid account or anywhere else and had a fling with him, not even knowing that he was married and a fundie nut job. I honestly would be :angry-screaming: if something like that would happen to me.

[MalteseBaby]

Her son was also speaking nearly full sentences by 9 months and reading the newspaper and explaining the articles by the age of two, so it runs in the family.

If you think that mocking me and my family makes you superior, go at it.

My child was blessed with exceptional intelligence.

Likewise, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is extremely disrespectful to call another person a liar when you do not know them nor the child about which they posted.

You can spin things for your own sneaky agenda. It does not matter to me what you or any of the other people here think of me or my son, or my husband. I know what we are and I benefit from my choices greatly.

My point,which you know was my point, is that Anna is not stuck where she is. The media is screaming that she's staying with Josh, and it seems that there is no voice saying " She has other choices. "

What has been posted here through three versions of " Josh is a cheating spouse" is " Poor Anna. I feel so sorry for Anna.".

The mindset of feeling sorry for Anna does not help Anna.

Likewise, you treating a fellow poster with obvious contempt is showing what type of person you are. It does nothing to diminish who I am. :)

[justoneoftwo]

I have to say, I wonder what Joshs mistresses think about this scandal.

I mean, sure, there could be some famewhores who just wait to get to the press.

But there also could be women who were cheating on their partner, and now fear that they will be exposed too.

And imagine if some unfortunate single girl met him on his ok cupid account or anywhere else and had a fling with him, not even knowing that he was married and a fundie nut job. I honestly would be :angry-screaming: if something like that would happen to me.

It seems likely she was an escort, many of the women on AM are. This likely means we will never know.

[Whoosh]

I'm going to put on my psychologist hat for a moment to say the following. At times our personal histories and life experiences of trauma in relation to certain topics strongly color if not totally warp our perception of what is being conveyed through words (both our own words and the words of others). It seems that if one is able to acknowledge a particular topic is a personal hot button issue, they might want to be wary of falling into such a trap when discussing that topic. If that same individual is getting feedback from a variety of others which indicates they are either misinterpreting the words of others or failing to realize how their own words are coming across, it might be wise to take a moment and reflect on the situation.

[Elvis Presby]

Poor Anna, she has got to be so humiliated on top of dealing with her postpartum hormones. It's bad enough to have an unfaithful spouse in regular life, but to have EVERYONE know, is just unthinkable. :cry:

The kids can turn out fine if she breaks away. She probably won't though.

[lascuba]

One thing I want to say about the points made regarding Anna's legal options...yes, that's all technically true, but the reality is so much more difficult, to the point where I can't really blame anyone for not bothering with that whole mess. Sure, she'd eventually get legal help, and after many, many court appearances and such will eventually get some kind of financial/property settlement and child support and alimony, but until that happens, life would seriously suck. And the end result might not be worth it to her when all is said and done. And that's not even taking into account the whole religion aspect of it all. Hell, I think Anna is a shitty human being and while I find her blameless in this I don't really feel any sympathy for her, but ending a marriage when you're NOT an uneducated, ignorant, religiously fanatical and financially dependent dingbat is hard as hell. Let's not assume anyone can do it so easily.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I know someone like this. Their mother was the leader of the group we were in and they were constantly held up as the golden child. The double life started early (think age 10/11), by 14/15 they were running away (and sleeping with lord only knows who) only for everyone else to be blamed and for them to be framed as the "victim" of our actions. It's been almost 10 years and their life is still just as messed up (unstable and co-dependent to say the least) but of course that's because we were "unfaithful" and led her astray.

Their sibling didn't at all act out in the same way and was a super sweet kid. I'm sure they have their own issues however we haven't kept in touch.

This isn't exactly a new phenomenon. The stereotype that preachers' and teachers' kids are hellions didn't arise solely from a myth.

(It's not anything more than a stereotype, but most people can cite an anecdote of someone they know.)

A life of absolutes and rules upon rules without also teaching moderation, balance, and flexibility creates confusion and sets most children (held to the standards of preachers and teachers) up to be disappointments - and to be disappointed.

[browncoatslytherin]

If you think that mocking me and my family makes you superior, go at it.

My child was blessed with exceptional intelligence.

Likewise, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is extremely disrespectful to call another person a liar when you do not know them nor the child about which they posted.

You can spin things for your own sneaky agenda. It does not matter to me what you or any of the other people here think of me or my son, or my husband. I know what we are and I benefit from my choices greatly.

My point,which you know was my point, is that Anna is not stuck where she is. The media is screaming that she's staying with Josh, and it seems that there is no voice saying " She has other choices. "

What has been posted here through three versions of " Josh is a cheating spouse" is " Poor Anna. I feel so sorry for Anna.".

The mindset of feeling sorry for Anna does not help Anna.

Likewise, you treating a fellow poster with obvious contempt is showing what type of person you are. It does nothing to diminish who I am. :)

honest question: then what *are*we to do? multiple people have listed over and over what she can do, what her options really are, etc., but how else do you propose that we do? we feel sorry for her because that's how we feel, but afaik, nobody here is in a position to physically help her in any way. expressing how we feel and what *can* be realistically done by her is really all that i can see we can do. that is support, at least according to the way i see things. what about you?

edited because i used caps for emphasis for two words and don't want that misinterpreted as yelling.

[Mrs. Figg]

One of the OKC questions asked something along the lines of would your SO be shocked by anything they'd find if you died (or something like that) and he answered NO. Could be another case of saying what a prospective date wants to hear but I wondered if Anna already knew? Or if he was stupid enough to think his tracks were covered.