Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[Analytica49]

I saw a yahoo article that was written the same day as the Joshley Madison scandal broke, but I think it was published earlier in the day before the JM news broke. I have seen similar articles referenced a few times on this thread so I won't re-post it but I think it's worth noting that the article was stating that JB&M are distancing themselves from their son because of the molestation scandal. So if they were already abandoning him and then this happened, it really makes me fear for Josh's safety. He's losing everything he's ever known and he hasn't had many bad things happen to him in his sheltered lifetime. Most "normal" people don't have to go through what he's been through lately and I'd imagine if these things happened to me I'd have a really hard time coping. So I can't even imagine the thoughts running through Johsie's mind right now. I hope one of them isn't suicide. And I don't mean for this to sound like I'm defending him. I totally think he's a real tool. But even though he's an adult I don't think he has the mindset of an adult due to his poor upbringing. So I still place a lot of blame on boobstick & DQ.

I've been wondering about Smuggar's state of mind. (I truly have much better things to be doing, but this whole news is [to me] so rivetting, I can't let it go.)

One thing I wondered was whether he actually developed a relationship (or even more than one??) with a woman through A.M. If so, that relationship presumably was severed rather drastically and dramatically when the molestation information came out in May. At that point he ended his membership in A.M. and presumably had to really be careful about any behavior that might become public.

If Josh is as needy as his Ok Cupid description implies, then over the past few years he might have become quite dependent on another woman. At this point, he can hardly be leaning on Anna; with a newborn and three other young kids, Anna has more than enough to do, and she's unlikely to be feeling very warm about him right now.

So what I'm saying is, on top of losing his job, his fundamentalist credentials, the approval of his parents and family, his political connections, and most of his future prospects, he may also have lost a relationship (an extra-marital one) that meant something to him.

Truly, it's hard for me to imagine how someone could so totally mess up his own life. (And please note, I am not feeling sorry for him here; just trying to imagine what's going on in his head.)

[browncoatslytherin]

And yet, according to People, the Duggars are stunned, as in “still stunned†by the public reaction to the news about Josh. His parents “truly felt people would understand and eventually be okay with it,†said a source quoted by People in an online teaser for the print article. “‘None of the Duggars think Josh is to blame’ says the source,†the teaser continues. “Instead, it is the officials who released the police records about Josh and his young victims who are the focus of the family’s anger.â€

The molestation is no big deal to them, apparently, and shouldn't be to the outside world, either.

They haven't a clue.

exactly. the leghumpers adamantly defended the molestation, downplaying it and writing it off as a youthful mistake. after some time - and maybe a book explaining his "path of repentance" or whatever drivel - i can totally see fundies accept him back into the fold.

[JenniferJuniper]

And now for something a bit more light-hearted: Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian[tm][/tm] now has several Facebook postings about Joshley Madison.

facebook.com/pages/Mrs-Betty-Bowers-Americas-Best-Christian/312383761871?ref=mf

Crude, but diet coke is all over my keyboard now:

"Was he using the site to cheat on his wife or his sisters?"

[Daenerys]

Well I am never going to catch up since I have a dr. appt. today and I'm still on part 2. This will no doubt be on part 4 by the time I get home :shrug:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'm going to throw this out. People keep saying that Josh seemed to be looking for something he was missing in his relationship with Anna in terms of what he wanted with sex.

Since Anna was raised from birth to essentially do whatever her headship wanted and always be available, why wouldn't Josh just talk to her about doing the things he wanted to do. All the stuff he had in his AM profile were pretty vanilla. It's not like he had any kinks listed (bondage or role playing, etc). Bubble bath for 2 was about as wild as he got.

It seems like he could have just suggested that to Anna and she would have gone alone with it because she was trained to do so if nothing else. She may have actually been interested in more than laying flat on her back, in missionary position every time. Who knows.

I just don't get why he wouldn't have explored some of these things with Anna rather than going outside the marriage given their relative innocence.

Maybe he wanted someone with a bit of spark, who would put up a bit more of a fight (like, playing hard to get) rather than just passively doing whatever. I imagine that could be really boring after a while.

[JenniferJuniper]

I've been wondering about Smuggar's state of mind. (I truly have much better things to be doing, but this whole news is [to me] so rivetting, I can't let it go.)

One thing I wondered was whether he actually developed a relationship (or even more than one??) with a woman through A.M. If so, that relationship presumably was severed rather drastically and dramatically when the molestation information came out in May. At that point he ended his membership in A.M. and presumably had to really be careful about any behavior that might become public.

If Josh is as needy as his Ok Cupid description implies, then over the past few years he might have become quite dependent on another woman. At this point, he can hardly be leaning on Anna; with a newborn and three other young kids, Anna has more than enough to do, and she's unlikely to be feeling very warm about him right now.

So what I'm saying is, on top of losing his job, his fundamentalist credentials, the approval of his parents and family, his political connections, and most of his future prospects, he may also have lost a relationship (an extra-marital one) that meant something to him.

Truly, it's hard for me to imagine how someone could so totally mess up his own life. (And please note, I am not feeling sorry for him here; just trying to imagine what's going on in his head.)

I think it's worth keeping in mind that Smuggar is not only a raging hypocrite, he's a total narcissist. He probably figures it will all blow over eventually and he'll be fine. To hell with all of the victims he leaves in his wake.

[fraurosena]

See, IMO, they were both raised in the same culture-- one that is built on oppressors and victims. I feel sorry for these people as long as they are victims. But Josh, at some point, happily accepted the power the culture offered him and became an oppressor within the culture. At that point, my sympathy for a person really drops off, even though I do still have sympathy for the pretty awful childhood and indoctrination that contributed to him becoming the way that he is. I also don't have much sympathy for Jill R., who has taken on an oppressor role in regards to her children.

This culture is built on breaking their children because they follow the Pearls handbook. I can imagine that such a child will have an immense feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, so that when the moment finally arrives that they can have power, in whatever form it comes, they grab at it with both hands. In that light, the fact that it can lead to absolutely reprehensible behavior (molesting your sisters) and infidelity and unfaithfulness isn't that surprising. So yes, in a sense I have sympathy for all the children (and now grown adults) that are/were subjected to such a childhood.

Do I condone or diminish the atrocity and moral deviance of Josh's acts themselves? Absolutely not. While I admit that of course the individuals have their own culpability for their chosen actions, I fully blame JB and M (I can't bring myself to call them parents) for creating these stunted and broken kids.

Who knows if Josh would have done all these things if he hadn't been broken as a kid?

[VaSportsMom]

My heart hurts for Anna. My husband & I split up nearly 3 months ago and there are still tons of people that don't know. We aren't hiding it and we answer questions if asked but we haven't been pressured to share with the world. The first of Sept he is moving hours away so things will change then and I'll deal with questions as they come. I'm grateful for the 3 months that I've had to process things privately though. It allowed me and the kids to find a new normal without everyone watching and "advising".

Anna doesn't have that. Her worst nightmare is playing out on a national stage. The pressure must be crushing. No matter what she decides there are those that will judge her unkindly and loudly. Her choices will be ripped apart and thrown back at her by one side or the other. There is no "win" for her.

[Becket70]

What I find ironic is that a few years ago TLC aired Ashley Madison commercials. Yep. They aired in the evening for a period of time but there was a huge backlash on their Facebook page so that didn't last too long. I often wondered if TLC knew what Ashley Madison was or if they just sold the commercial time without checking.

If you want to see a humorous take on the recent Duggar issues, go to the Happynicetimepeople site and enjoy!

[lascuba]

I get what you're saying. If Anna started giving interviews where she constantly bashes Josh and is looking for pity all while remaining married to him - I would likely agree with you. I have a very low tolerance for bullshit like that; I have the mindset that there is always a solution to a problem and you just have to try and find it. Constantly complaining or looking for sympathy distracts from that.

I doubt that will be the case here though. Anna will not be giving interviews on the subject. If she does, she will stay on script. She may reveal some of the pain this has caused her, but she won't bash her husband and the only thing close to sympathy she will ask for is in pleading for privacy to deal with stuff as a family.

Like others have pointed out, Anna was raised to believe any moral failure her husband commits is a direct result of her behavior and thoughts. Its possible she feels a great deal of guilt and responsibility over the fact that her husband cheated on her, despite the fact that (to all appearances) she did everything she was supposed to do as a good and Go(thar)dly wife.

Anna is no martyr. . . but she also isn't deserving of the blame some posters here (and on other sites) have thrown her way either.

TL;DR Version: Theres a middle ground between Anna-bashing and Anna-worshipping. :lol:

Yeah, I don't think Anna deserves any blame in this. While I do think fundamentalist has a lot to with the particulars of this case, I'm not really focused on that aspect of it, precisely because cheating--and women forgiving it--is way too common for us to point fingers. On a personal level, I just prefer cold-hearted practicality in these situations. Tell me you're staying because of money and/or you just don't care about fidelity as long as everything else is the way you like it...that makes complete sense to me. Say, "But I love him!" and insist it's just a rough patch and you two will work through it and he'll never do it again, and I hope for the best while believing that forgiving a man for cheating is giving him permission to do it again. I'd never say or imply anything of the sort to women dealing with it, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

[Hera]

Well I am never going to catch up since I have a dr. appt. today and I'm still on part 2. This will no doubt be on part 4 by the time I get home :shrug:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'm going to throw this out. People keep saying that Josh seemed to be looking for something he was missing in his relationship with Anna in terms of what he wanted with sex.

Since Anna was raised from birth to essentially do whatever her headship wanted and always be available, why wouldn't Josh just talk to her about doing the things he wanted to do. All the stuff he had in his AM profile were pretty vanilla. It's not like he had any kinks listed (bondage or role playing, etc). Bubble bath for 2 was about as wild as he got.

It seems like he could have just suggested that to Anna and she would have gone alone with it because she was trained to do so if nothing else. She may have actually been interested in more than laying flat on her back, in missionary position every time. Who knows.

I just don't get why he wouldn't have explored some of these things with Anna rather than going outside the marriage given their relative innocence.

Maybe it's because he doesn't really know her? Sure, they're married, but that doesn't mean that they have the requisite emotional intimacy and emotional trust for him to talk to her about his sexual wants beyond baby making - thoughts and wants which have repeatedly been beaten (likely literally) into him as being shameful and sinful. Whatever mind fuckery that passed as counseling for Josh when he was younger didn't just go away when he got married to a virtual stranger that he never spent any alone time with. And Anna seems pretty into the whole ATI thing; maybe to him she represents his parents and church and he figured she would judge and reject him. Or maybe Josh was afraid she'd "tell" on him for wanting something "kinky." NOT that I am blaming Anna at all because this mess is Josh's and these issues are Josh's and Josh should have taken the high road and dealt with them in a way that wouldn't hurt his wife. But, I do get the secrecy and why he wouldn't reach out to Anna, given his background and even why he wouldn't know where to turn or who to reach out to to talk. This whole mess just seems like a side-effect of Josh's fucked up upbringing and its fucked up courting rules and its fucked up obsession with sex. I'll say it again, but the best thing Josh and Anna could do now is go see a non-ATI marital counselor.

[MalteseBaby]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

In this country, women have resources to help them find a safe shelter, to have their kids fed and clothed, and to teach them skills, as in a job.

Likewise, legal representation is provided for divorce proceedings when a woman is in an abusive situation. The lawyers make certain that she gets half the property and assets from the marital home.

It is completely disingenuous to state that because Anna ( and Josh) were raised in fundy homes, they " lack" the ability to now act as adults in a totally adult situation.

Anna has the ability to make independent decisions because she is a human being with normal intelligence, and she has been out in the world when she lived in DC. She probably knew divorced women. She probably knew single women. Some of them probably had children. She's not been locked away for 27 years, she's had life experiences with " the rest of us".

I cannot infantilize Anna Duggar just because she was " raised fundy" and chooses to remain fundy.

She is sealing her own fate by her own lack of pro-active action.

One of the basic principles of human life is that bad things will happen to each of us. It's how we analyze and respond to the " bad things" that determine the course our lives will take. She owes it to her children to get them out of an emotionally abusive home.

It's not her fault that her parents raised her with a messed up world view, courtesy of sexual predator Bill Gothard, but it is her fault that she chose to marry a man she had been told had molested his sisters a few years before.

It is on her that she stayed with him when the world found out, and she defended him.

It is her fault that she won't choose a safe, independent life for herself and her children ( if she does decide to stay married to Josh).

No matter what, a person of normal intelligence in the USA who is not physically being held against their will has options, choices, and opportunities to make their life something healthy and something that has personal power.

To say there's no other option is for her to once again give away her personal power and strength. There's always another option as long as there is freedom in our country and resources for women living in abusive situations. And Anna IS living in an abusive and neglectful situation in all ways that I can think of.

The name of this board is " FREE Jinger".

Anna needs the message that she can be free, too. She has ample grounds for leaving Josh, even in her religion.

[meowmeow19]

My god. I really do think Pris has developmental issues. It's a stark difference when she's sitting next to Anna. I hope Waller is less of an ass than her sisters' husbands: Smuggar and Schrader. Yet another reason why this lifestyle is so dangerous.

Eh, what a marriage to be into. I have a feeling that Priscilla and David's marriage is a marriage of convenience for their families. Not that either of them have anything "wrong" with them, one is likely to be gay and the other most likely has some developmental issues. I only have a problem if they were sold off to each other. Just makes me think much less of Pa Keller. Some of his children escaped and are against the lifestyle and the 3 of the daughters that have stayed have "interesting" husbands.

[Firiel]

Fundy women are trained to be weak. So yes, any fundy woman who doesn't use her own mind to see that what she is being fed is BS and go to a safe place ( Anna has sisters who aren't fundy now) is saying she's too weak to do anything else.

And for the record, I don't give a flying fig what happened to you or why.

I'm not responsible for your anger, your opinion or the fact that your life was fucked up by fundies. You got out, but you are denying that Anna has the ability to do the same?? It's America, she has the same ability to go to a shelter with her kids and then get help with a job and child care. That's what shelters do. It's not a cushy life like she may want but it's an independent life. I've seen women beat to within an inch of their lives, with many children and pregnant with another go to a neighbor's and call 911 to get herself and her kids to a safe women's shelter.

Your rationale is pathetic. You are not even making sense, really, since you say you did get out ( do you know RR? :)) but you feel oh, so sorry for poor little Anna who doesn't have the same right to walk away and to public help and assistance with her career and her chidrens' care.

Your anger is still crippling you. I have absolutely no respect for you as a poster for screaming at me in huge font and cursing at me. Don't reply to me because you just earned the " Foe" status from me. I don't tak your type of abuse.

...

WUT.

And the Overreaction of the Year award goes to...

:roll:

[Marissap]

I get what you're saying. If Anna started giving interviews where she constantly bashes Josh and is looking for pity all while remaining married to him - I would likely agree with you. I have a very low tolerance for bullshit like that; I have the mindset that there is always a solution to a problem and you just have to try and find it. Constantly complaining or looking for sympathy distracts from that.

I doubt that will be the case here though. Anna will not be giving interviews on the subject. If she does, she will stay on script. She may reveal some of the pain this has caused her, but she won't bash her husband and the only thing close to sympathy she will ask for is in pleading for privacy to deal with stuff as a family.

Like others have pointed out, Anna was raised to believe any moral failure her husband commits is a direct result of her behavior and thoughts. Its possible she feels a great deal of guilt and responsibility over the fact that her husband cheated on her, despite the fact that (to all appearances) she did everything she was supposed to do as a good and Go(thar)dly wife.

Anna is no martyr. . . but she also isn't deserving of the blame some posters here (and on other sites) have thrown her way either.

TL;DR Version: Theres a middle ground between Anna-bashing and Anna-worshipping. :lol:

There is a middle ground. And I was one of the people calling her an idiot if she doesn't change anything. Totally understand she's indoctrinated into this crap but what's the definition of sanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

In no way do I hope that this cycle continues; no one would wish that on someone but 5, 10 years down the line IF it does continue are we supposed to just keep saying poor Anna? She is still a victim yes but there does have to be a level of responsibility for yourself and your children. She was born into a crap life that's for sure but if you know of alternatives and choose not to take them (as her sister did) then my sympathy meter recalibrates downward.

And yes I can say that from my position of not having to deal with it so it's easy for me to say........

[sisterwives]

[snip] Since Anna was raised from birth to essentially do whatever her headship wanted and always be available, why wouldn't Josh just talk to her about doing the things he wanted to do. All the stuff he had in his AM profile were pretty vanilla. It's not like he had any kinks listed (bondage or role playing, etc). Bubble bath for 2 was about as wild as he got.

[...]

I just don't get why he wouldn't have explored some of these things with Anna rather than going outside the marriage given their relative innocence.

Honestly, I think it was much more than him wanting to do a bubble bath for 2. I have always gotten the vibe that he genuinely just doesn't LIKE Anna. Maybe he loves her as the mother of his children and maybe even his wife. But there has hardly been any chemistry with them ever.

I also suspect that the reason he didn't explore any of these things with Anna is because Anna probably refuses to use any kind of birth control. It jumped out to me that on his profile he wanted "professional classy women." What kind of professional woman would risk her career by getting pregnant with an affair partner? Obviously he used some kinda BC, something that Anna would shut down immediately. So he seeks his bubble baths from another lady.

[Firiel]

There is a middle ground. And I was one of the people calling her an idiot if she doesn't change anything. Totally understand she's indoctrinated into this crap but what's the definition of sanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

In no way do I hope that this cycle continues; no one would wish that on someone but 5, 10 years down the line IF it does continue are we supposed to just keep saying poor Anna? She is still a victim yes but there does have to be a level of responsibility for yourself and your children. She was born into a crap life that's for sure but if you know of alternatives and choose not to take them (as her sister did) then my sympathy meter recalibrates downward.

And yes I can say that from my position of not having to deal with it so it's easy for me to say........

Serious question-- do you feel the same way about women in abusive relationships? That they are idiots who don't deserve much sympathy?

[Marissap]

My heart hurts for Anna. My husband & I split up nearly 3 months ago and there are still tons of people that don't know. We aren't hiding it and we answer questions if asked but we haven't been pressured to share with the world. The first of Sept he is moving hours away so things will change then and I'll deal with questions as they come. I'm grateful for the 3 months that I've had to process things privately though. It allowed me and the kids to find a new normal without everyone watching and "advising".

Anna doesn't have that. Her worst nightmare is playing out on a national stage. The pressure must be crushing. No matter what she decides there are those that will judge her unkindly and loudly. Her choices will be ripped apart and thrown back at her by one side or the other. There is no "win" for her.

So sorry for your situation.

[justoneoftwo]

Honestly, I think it was much more than him wanting to do a bubble bath for 2. I have always gotten the vibe that he genuinely just doesn't LIKE Anna. Maybe he loves her as the mother of his children and maybe even his wife. But there has hardly been any chemistry with them ever.

I also suspect that the reason he didn't explore any of these things with Anna is because Anna probably refuses to use any kind of birth control. It jumped out to me that on his profile he wanted "professional classy women." What kind of professional woman would risk her career by getting pregnant with an affair partner? Obviously he used some kinda BC, something that Anna would shut down immediately. So he seeks his bubble baths from another lady.

I think this is a good point. I've never seen anything to show he actually likes Anna. Also, their hopes and dreams seem quite off, he wants one or two kids, she is hinting around for more. Have we ever seen them have a substantive conversation? Do anything that shows affection and not a desire for sex? If the issue is really that he doesn't like her that can be so much harder to live with.

[Hisey]

I think that the birth control issue played a huge role in creating a situation where an already unstable person might cheat.

Josh and Anna had no alone time before they were married.

Four months after their marriage, she was pregnant. Then pregnant again. And again and again.

I had tiny children only for a very short time (mine were adopted as toddlers) but I found it exhausting and draining. Imagine two immature 20 year olds with a baby?

It is certainly not Anna's fault that Josh cheated. However, her attitude towards babies (more! more!) indicates they were not on the same page. He seemed sad and resigned about their babies, she seemed fulfilled and contented. It seems likely she was oblivious of his feelings, as she kept pushing for a fourth when they already had so many so soon. Again, the situation is not her fault, not at all. But it seems clear they were on different pages about a very important life-changing issue--whether or not to constantly have babies.

Even JB and Michelle had those four sinful years when they used BC before Josh was born. They've actually said those years were invaluable in getting them started financially and probably emotionally.

My point is, with Anna happily pregnant or nursing nearly all the time, these two youngsters never had a chance to get to know each other sexually. How could they? Babies' demands are so enormous and time-consuming. Pregnancy hormones probably complicated things too.

Anna probably never had a chance to know if she liked sex, and they never had a chance to discover if they were sexually compatible.

Even now, I don't know how they are coping with this crisis while dealing with the demands of four very young kids. How can they talk, sort things out, forgive or shout or cry, when they have so many toddlers around? I have two adolescents and can hardly find a minute to talk to my husband alone.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I just saw that the dad who announced his wife's pregnancy to her by testing her pee, on YouTube (and they later miscarried then said the world hates Christians and they possibly never even were pregnant) (see thread here viewtopic.php?f=81&t=26720) was a paid Ashley Madison user!

[Firiel]

I just saw that the dad who announced his wife's pregnancy to her by testing her pee, on YouTube (and they later miscarried then said the world hates Christians and they possibly never even were pregnant) (see thread here viewtopic.php?f=81&t=26720) was a paid Ashley Madison user!

Where? Link please? :)

[Marissap]

Serious question-- do you feel the same way about women in abusive relationships? That they are idiots who don't deserve much sympathy?

I guess you could make the case that she IS abused. Emotionally at least due to her culture .

Logically, it is hard for me to understand why, when the resources are out there why people in abusive relationships can't reach out and utilize the resources. Just thinking of my kids, I would lay down my life to keep them out of an abusive situation- even to financial/other detriment to myself. Would it be ideal? Hell no. Would I do it to protect their lives or mine? Without hesitation. Like I said , I think it's very easy to make a decision from the "outside" and say what I would hypothetically do in that situation. I wholehearted acknowledge that.

I feel bad for anyone in an abusive situation: I think I'm more fired up about her, specifically, because they've spent years saying they are better than the rest of us because they are pure and yada yada and its crap.

[sisterwives]

I just saw that the dad who announced his wife's pregnancy to her by testing her pee, on YouTube (and they later miscarried then said the world hates Christians and they possibly never even were pregnant) (see thread here viewtopic.php?f=81&t=26720) was a paid Ashley Madison user!

omg..... People are so messy.

[EmmieJ]

The whole system is set up for marriage troubles.

And yeah, leaving is scary. And it's hard. It's hard to start over and build from the ground up, but it's doable. I hope Anne can leave. If she stays with Josh I'm afraid it will just give him the idea he can do whatever he wants and his wife will still be the same sweet woman who stays by his side no matter what.

He might have his reasons why he wants out of marriage. And if so, I hope he has the balls to just come out and say so and put Anna out of the misery of living with an unfaithful and disinterested spouse. It would be far better, IMHO, for them to separate now and make new lives for themselves than stay together and continue to produce more offspring while Josh continues to do whatever the hell he wants.

I appreciated your personal viewpoint as someone who grew up fundie. I agree the system is rigged against women. I have five sisters, and two of them moved from Catholocism to more fundamental Baptist type beliefs in college. The younger of the two married a Navy guy who never really got into her religion, although after the birth of their child, he did attend church with her on a regular basis for some time. In time, he began to cheat on her. She wasn't quite in so deep as to place all blame on herself, but she is fundie enough that divorce was out of the question. However, since he wasn't fundie, her husband was the one who said, "this isn't working" and moved out. However, if he hadn't chosen that path; if he wanted to remain married and living together, she would have continued to forgive him as he repeatedly cheated on her (which would have driven me crazy!).

It makes me very sad for Anna and her children, that she will most likely stay with Josh, continue to forgive him as he behaves disloyally toward her, probably blame herself for his actions, and in the end -- he'll probably leave her! The message she is sending to her children, especially the girls, is just terrible. And all her forgiving and trying to be the perfect Christian wife, will likely not even pay off in the end. Either Josh stays with her yet strays on the side; or eventually he leaves because he just can't stand the unhappiness of his situation. Either way, she's emotionally all alone in that relationship. It has to be really lousy to be Anna.

[CharityBear]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I am trying to keep up and am finding it impossible. Somebody commented on another website that there is a Facebook account under the email address Josh used on his AM account. I haven't had time to do much snooping yet to see if I can find anything interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/joe.smithson.9028?fref=ts