Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[refugee]

Duggars Said to Seek New Reality Show — Counseling Sex Abuse Victims

That was dated August 19

Here is the story

https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... -abuse-vic

Started to read this. There... are... no... words...

I mean, the first paragraph was bad enough. But I kept reading, and (I wouldn't have believed it possible) it just kept getting worse.

Thanks for linking that story. I never would have believed it, for the world. OTOH, considering the people in the story, it's believable.

Is this a reliable source? Because, it's so bad, it sounds like parody.

ETA: Re-read the article. Followed the link to People. I find myself asking myself how reliable is "People"? Shake my head at myself. It's difficult to contemplate that JB and M are not just deluded, but monstrous.

I mean, we were deluded, but we got out. They are all set to perpetuate their horrible system. ("Nothing to see here; move along. It's all the fault of the officials who released the documents [as they were required to, by law] -- they are the ones in the wrong. Not J, and certainly not us upright Gothard-following parents! Why, we're sure all you folks out there will get over this, will realize we're not at fault, will be understanding and forgiving and forgetting.")

[Firiel]

i would like nothing more for anna to break free, but i know that will likely never happen, or if it does it will take a long time of a lot happening to get her to that point.

the thing is, she wasn't just indoctrinated and brainwashed. the same thing happened to me (though admittedly not as extensive as anna). i broke out, but i also never felt like i truly belonged. i always felt like a bit of an outcast, like the circle i was in was not for me.

but anna was very happy in her station, she felt fulfilled. i didn't. and even so, it still took years - and a few drastic events - to make me break away completely. for someone who was getting fulfillment in her position though...even if that fulfillment is starting to wane, it would be nigh impossible to break out of that world. not totally impossible (there's always the potential for a miracle), but still highly improbable.

eta: and like i said, if she does, it would more likely be from a culmination of events over a long period of time, not just after a couple of bomb drops.

I'm hoping that she talks to her non-fundie siblings about this.

I remember two things that Christian women said that really helped me let go of my marriage. One was my ex's conservative aunt who told me when she picked me up from the airport for my "win him back" visit (which worked-- for two months) that she felt I had done enough and could bow out without feeling guilty or ashamed. The other was when a pastor's wife urged me to leave my school program and move back to try to make things work-- but when I explained to her the logistics of it and how I would be shooting myself in the foot gut if "winning him back" didn't work, she agreed with me and admitted it wasn't that easy. These people saying those things to me gave me permission to feel that way myself. I really hope Anna at least has someone tell her she has the Biblical reason she needs for divorce if she so chooses. Even hearing that from another person might give her the "permission" she feels she needs to be empowered and make her own decision.

[meowmeow19]

This video of Anna makes me sad. youtu.be/MyWTayyt9OA?t=43s

I wonder if she will stand up for what's right when it comes to her. It does show that she does have personality behind that servants smile, I have no doubt that she can yell.

[Curious]

Well I am never going to catch up since I have a dr. appt. today and I'm still on part 2. This will no doubt be on part 4 by the time I get home :shrug:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'm going to throw this out. People keep saying that Josh seemed to be looking for something he was missing in his relationship with Anna in terms of what he wanted with sex.

Since Anna was raised from birth to essentially do whatever her headship wanted and always be available, why wouldn't Josh just talk to her about doing the things he wanted to do. All the stuff he had in his AM profile were pretty vanilla. It's not like he had any kinks listed (bondage or role playing, etc). Bubble bath for 2 was about as wild as he got.

It seems like he could have just suggested that to Anna and she would have gone alone with it because she was trained to do so if nothing else. She may have actually been interested in more than laying flat on her back, in missionary position every time. Who knows.

I just don't get why he wouldn't have explored some of these things with Anna rather than going outside the marriage given their relative innocence.

[nokidsmom]

Just watched the wedding video where Josh sings to Anna. Started watching with a little giggling snark and then it hit me like a lead balloon. That poor innocent girl never had a chance. Her upbringing, being railroaded into a marriage & not even realizing she was being railroaded, unknowingly being the one who was supposed to "fix" her scumbag husband. She really loves him and thinks he is marrying her for love. I guess my "mama bear" instincts kicked in and to quote my grandmother, "Someone needs to tan his hide!!!" (But then Joshie might like that...who knows?)

To the bolded: you make a good point. I don't think Anna had any inkling that Josh was being pushed into marriage in order to deal with his desires problems. His parents were worried about him falling into further sexual sin and which then would curtail his marriage chances even more not to mention the harm it would do to their brand. It was like his parents transferred the problem to Anna who was expected to "fix" it. I seen this happen with troubled young man whose family was conservative evangelical Christian. Marry him off and it's the spouse's problem.

Which further has me convinced that JB and maybe Josh per his dad's instructions did not come completely clean with Pa Keller. I think JB and J'chelle were very vested in making the marriage happen so they did the bare minimum in disclosing so they could feel that they were honest. Combined with Anna's sheltered upbringing, and frankly Pa Keller doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer either, they had no chance to think it through and ask some serious questions.

[twinmama]

They tend to have a "it's different when we do it" attitude. I think the logic goes something like this: I'm a good, church-going, god-loving conservative person, so it's just a little slip-up when I do it. Other people are heathens who admit to enjoying sex, so it's wrong when they do it.

The Nixon defense!! "when the president does it that means that it is not illegal"

[paganhomeschooler]

Here is a pretty good blog post a former fundie friend of mine just shared on FB. I found it to be a good read. It talks about getting out of a covenant marriage. fiddlrts.blogspot.ca/2015/08/josh-duggar-ashley-madison-and-covenant.html?m=1

[Guest]

This video of Anna makes me sad. youtu.be/MyWTayyt9OA?t=43s

I wonder if she will stand up for what's right when it comes to her. It does show that she does have personality behind that servants smile, I have no doubt that she can yell.

Holy crap, I'm so glad that Priscilla isn't going through this, and I hope she will never have to (though... chances are high). We might not see Anna as a stereotypical "strong woman," but compared to Priscilla...

I really hope Anna will stand up for her kids. I don't know if she'll do it for herself, but I think she's more likely to make a change for her kids.

[refugee]

Well I am never going to catch up since I have a dr. appt. today and I'm still on part 2. This will no doubt be on part 4 by the time I get home :shrug:

It seems like he could have just suggested that to Anna and she would have gone alone with it because she was trained to do so if nothing else. She may have actually been interested in more than laying flat on her back, in missionary position every time. Who knows.

I just don't get why he wouldn't have explored some of these things with Anna rather than going outside the marriage given their relative innocence.

Because one of the things to come out of this culture is that mixed sexes do not talk about sex. At all. They are culturally conditioned that way. Men might talk about it in the company of other men (dirty jokes, I assume -- I don't think they'd go into the hows and whys and wherefores so much), women will talk about it with other women (not a joking matter, but dead serious indoctrination to the tune of "you must never refuse him when he's in the mood" and that sort of thing).

(spoiler text because maybe TMI)

Mind, the women's talk is not *practical* but rather indoctrination. I remember talking to my kids about how to avoid UTIs (you pee as soon as possible after sex), b/c I was never told about that and suffered the consequences -- and I think of the newlywed young woman in our ex-church who came to church a week after the wedding, looking miserable. Turns out she had a UTI... wonder if her mom gave her the Talk, and if any practical matters were included...)

That's powerful conditioning. So powerful, that it's highly possible that fundie husband and wife don't talk about sex at all, or feel extremely uncomfortable with the subject. They don't talk about it. They Nike. (just do it)

[twinmama]

Go borrow 4 children under 6 for a week and see how much time you have to meet your side piece. Hilarious! It would be nice if Anna has that much "me" time, but I'm guessing it's a banner worthy day when she gets to pee alone. ;)

If she ever leaves the kids with one of the Duggar girls to go to the store by herself, she has time to cheat. If she wanted to do it, she could find a way. But I don't think she is or has.

[hapamama]

Go borrow 4 children under 6 for a week and see how much time you have to meet your side piece. Hilarious! It would be nice if Anna has that much "me" time, but I'm guessing it's a banner worthy day when she gets to pee alone. ;)

I had 3 under 6 at one point, with a newborn, and had no energy for sex with my husband, let alone a "side piece". I barely had time to shower let alone find time to screw someone.

An almost 6 year old probably doesn't nap much.

[socalrules]

I don't understand why anyone thinks that Josh and Anna will write a book about the cheating and go on a book and speaking tour. They can never do that because the molestation will always be hanging over Josh's head. People will forget and get over the cheating because at the end of the day, some people cheat and adults having consensual sex is not illegal (not including if prostitution was involved). People will never get over child molestation. The first interview they give, the molestation will be asked about. If the molestation scandal never occurred and the cheating problem was what came out last May, no one, other than FJ, would be talking about it now. The molestation will follow Josh far longer than the cheating. The molestation will be what keeps Josh from finding work. The molestation will keep people from allowing their children to come over and play with the M kids. The molestation is a lifetime sentence for Josh. His cult may be able to look past the molestation but the rest of the world will never be able to do that. Yet, his cult will likely be far more unkind for the cheating and the rest of the world will not care other than to snark.

[MalteseBaby]

Yeah, I'm just going to have to go on the record as STRONGLY disagreeing with you here.

I grew up in a fundy system, and yeah, I was a strong-minded straight-up rebellious bitch *in my heart*. But outwardly, I did what I had to do to get by -- I obeyed my parents, I respected people in authority, I dressed modestly (frumpily), I followed all the rules ... until I was old enough and had enough money saved to get the hell out. Do you have any idea how hard it is to know who you are but still have to live a lie just to survive? Tell you what -- maybe you could understand it like this ... Imagine if you're a gay teen in a fundy family. Now are those kids weak for knuckling under and hiding themselves just to survive? Fuck no. They're strong as hell. And so are fundy women *who are doing what they have to do to survive*. Yeah, women are adults and have more legal rights -- but they're often hobbled and thwarted at every step so that getting out often means leaving EVERYTHING behind. Not everyone is willing or able to do that. So they just keep living a lie.

Just because I and others have managed to get out of that deadly system doesn't mean that those who are left behind are WEAK. The brainwashing begins at birth. Women are taught that they are second to men (and children, even, if the children happen to have penises). They are given poor educations so that they cannot support themselves. They are strongly discouraged from getting jobs of any kind. They are discouraged or forbidden from getting an education. And they are encouraged to breed like rabbits. They are not WEAK because they don't conform to YOUR idea of strength.

I have no freaking clue what's going on in Anna's mind. Maybe she's swallowed the party line hook, line and sinker and deserves your contempt. Or maybe this was the final straw that broke her faith. Or maybe she's been rebelling in her heart a helluva long time but has to "stay sweet to survive" even while constantly searching for ways to escape without losing everything that has ever mattered to her. Point is, none of us know. But to write off all fundy women as WEAK pisses me the hell off. It's bullshit.

Fundy women are trained to be weak. So yes, any fundy woman who doesn't use her own mind to see that what she is being fed is BS and go to a safe place ( Anna has sisters who aren't fundy now) is saying she's too weak to do anything else.

And for the record, I don't give a flying fig what happened to you or why.

I'm not responsible for your anger, your opinion or the fact that your life was fucked up by fundies. You got out, but you are denying that Anna has the ability to do the same?? It's America, she has the same ability to go to a shelter with her kids and then get help with a job and child care. That's what shelters do. It's not a cushy life like she may want but it's an independent life. I've seen women beat to within an inch of their lives, with many children and pregnant with another go to a neighbor's and call 911 to get herself and her kids to a safe women's shelter.

Your rationale is pathetic. You are not even making sense, really, since you say you did get out ( do you know RR? :)) but you feel oh, so sorry for poor little Anna who doesn't have the same right to walk away and to public help and assistance with her career and her chidrens' care.

Your anger is still crippling you. I have absolutely no respect for you as a poster for screaming at me in huge font and cursing at me. Don't reply to me because you just earned the " Foe" status from me. I don't take your type of abuse.

[FunFunFundie]

I feel terrible for Anna. I don't think any of this should be blamed on her, although I would guess that she will feel pressure from within and without to shoulder the blame. She is in a terrible position, and she has been groomed to be in this position.

What I think is important, though, is that she's on the cusp of culpability herself - she's raising her children in the same system. At some point, she stops being the fundie kid (victim of a cult) and turns into the fundie mom (perpetrator of the cult). I don't know when that is.

I think it would be great for her to leave. I don't think she will. I don't know if she thinks she has any options, or if she would even want to leave. And, probably that's not my business. Where I do place blame, though, is on what she passes on - if she goes through this and decides this is the life she is going to lead, okay. But if she goes through this and *still* thinks this is the life she is going to force upon her children - to teach her daughters to always "be available" and sweet, to teach her sons that they must simultaneously suppress all outside-of-marital-sex desires and also that they are not responsible for their own sexuality - then I can't see her as simply a victim.

[Analytica49]

What is it with fundies and blaming Satan? Why can't they just take full responsibility for their actions? I was raised in a pretty religious household (not fundy, but strict Catholic). If my mom had caught me doing something wrong and I told her it was because I had Satan in my heart, she would have called BS and told me to own up to what I'd done.

They ALWAYS have a scapegoat, even if it's a weak one. :roll:

But I wonder if, even from a fundamentalist perspective, blaming Satan doesn't really do them any good.

After all, if you believe this nonsense, you'd have to ask yourself why Satan sets up his fortress in some hearts and not in others. From a fundie point of view, wouldn't they think that Josh ALLOWED Satan in, or even made a place for Satan in his heart? Or perhaps they'd say Josh did not sufficiently guard himself against Satan's wiles.

In other words, blaming Satan does not really get him off the blame hook. It just pushes the question of guilt one step farther back.

[ClaraOswin]

I don't think you have to, but I don't think that it will ruin a marriage if you do and can let a couple know if they are sexually incompatible. To some people this would be a deal breaker and it is better to find out before marriage. I think that the way he was raised played into him not respecting his wife and the way he treated her. Treating women as objects who are always under the authority of a man can easily lead to a guy growing up thinking it is okay to treat his wife poorly. It could be that he would have always been a major jerk, but the way he was raised couldn't have helped curb these tendencies.

The problem with that is it doesn't necessarily work in showing if people are sexually compatible because often people's sex drives change throughout the course of their lives. Sexual compatibility at one time in a relationship doesn't mean it will always be so.

[refugee]

I don't think Anna had any inkling that Josh was being pushed into marriage in order to deal with his desires problems. His parents were worried about him falling into further sexual sin and which then would curtail his marriage chances even more not to mention the harm it would do to their brand. It was like his parents transferred the problem to Anna who was expected to "fix" it. I seen this happen with troubled young man whose family was conservative evangelical Christian. Marry him off and it's the spouse's problem.

Sort of like Doug Wilson pushing a convicted pedophile at a girl (I don't know if she was a "young woman" or "girl" at the time) -- in his congregation? -- and then presiding at their wedding.

'Cause the pedophile repented, don't you know. So all's well with the world.

[sisterwives]

Yeah, it's the good old 'mess around with the bad girls for fun and then settle down with a nice 'wife material' girl and have the kids and the house' thing....but in reverse because Josh was never given a chance to mess around and be a normal young male adult before getting married.

Yeah I think the addiction and "he needs professional help" comments are REALLY reaching. He really is just a regular ol' guy doing what most people do. I would be concerned if his sex became risky, dangerous, etc. But based on his profile, he seems to have just wanted regular sex with women who weren't Anna (aka sex that wouldn't bring babies he probably doesn't want). Maybe he had a porn addiction, that's debatable. But sex? Na, he's doing what most 27 year old men do, married or not. I've seen atheist people who got married young ruin their marriages in similar fashions.

[nokidsmom]

He has no life now, -not the one he previously had and not the one he carved out in DC. Nothing. That said, I personally believe that all adults are accountable for their actions, NO MATTER what happened to them as children. Josh CHOSE this whole Ashley Madison mess, and forced it on his wife and children. THAT will not get an ounce of sympathy from me.

Snipped to shorten to this part I would like to comment on:

Thinking further about this, Josh did have the opportunity to expand his life with this job in DC. Yeah, it was the FRC, but it was in a completely different city and environment than what he had lived in before. Bigger, more diverse, he would be exposed to people from all walks of life with different beliefs and attitudes. It was my hope that maybe this new experience would be good for him and I guess my thinking was based on if I were him, I would jump at getting away from JB and J'chelle. A bit of projection on my part, I know. But it was an opportunity to forge a different life and he has blown it big time. The molestations, while awful, were done when he was young and while there were questions of it being adequately dealt with, it was in the past. This time, this is very much in the present and he clearly chose to sign up on AM, a site that facilitates infidelity, while being married with kids, something that his upbringing clearly forbade. He had some opportunities but unfortunately it appears he took the wrong ones.

[refugee]

I don't understand why anyone thinks that Josh and Anna will write a book about the cheating and go on a book and speaking tour. They can never do that because the molestation will always be hanging over Josh's head. People will forget and get over the cheating because at the end of the day, some people cheat and adults having consensual sex is not illegal (not including if prostitution was involved). People will never get over child molestation. The first interview they give, the molestation will be asked about. If the molestation scandal never occurred and the cheating problem was what came out last May, no one, other than FJ, would be talking about it now. The molestation will follow Josh far longer than the cheating. The molestation will be what keeps Josh from finding work. The molestation will keep people from allowing their children to come over and play with the M kids. The molestation is a lifetime sentence for Josh. His cult may be able to look past the molestation but the rest of the world will never be able to do that. Yet, his cult will likely be far more unkind for the cheating and the rest of the world will not care other than to snark.

And yet, according to People, the Duggars are stunned, as in “still stunned†by the public reaction to the news about Josh. His parents “truly felt people would understand and eventually be okay with it,†said a source quoted by People in an online teaser for the print article. “‘None of the Duggars think Josh is to blame’ says the source,†the teaser continues. “Instead, it is the officials who released the police records about Josh and his young victims who are the focus of the family’s anger.â€

The molestation is no big deal to them, apparently, and shouldn't be to the outside world, either.

They haven't a clue.

[sisterwives]

The problem with that is it doesn't necessarily work in showing if people are sexually compatible because often people's sex drives change throughout the course of their lives. Sexual compatibility at one time in a relationship doesn't mean it will always be so.

Thank you! I had a debate like this with my sister recently (she's 32 and has been single for over a decade now) that sex drives are not constant. There will be times where sex just isn't a priority. Of course ideally, you should work towards making those times as limited as possible, but sometimes, after things like births or deaths of loved ones, sex won't come as naturally as it did in the first year. That's the flawed logic behind sleeping together before marriage.

[JesusPony]

Holy crap, I'm so glad that Priscilla isn't going through this, and I hope she will never have to (though... chances are high). We might not see Anna as a stereotypical "strong woman," but compared to Priscilla...

I really hope Anna will stand up for her kids. I don't know if she'll do it for herself, but I think she's more likely to make a change for her kids.

My god. I really do think Pris has developmental issues. It's a stark difference when she's sitting next to Anna. I hope Waller is less of an ass than her sisters' husbands: Smuggar and Schrader. Yet another reason why this lifestyle is so dangerous.

[nokidsmom]

Sort of like Doug Wilson pushing a convicted pedophile at a girl (I don't know if she was a "young woman" or "girl" at the time) -- in his congregation? -- and then presiding at their wedding.

'Cause the pedophile repented, don't you know. So all's well with the world.

Yep, similar to that.

[Talitha Cumi]

...... And, there it is ..... Had a feeling it would go that way :(

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-sex.html

From the article:

In his role as Executive Director of FRC Action, Josh said in one interview that he was committed to 'taking the message of faith, family and freedom all across America.'

He also bragged that his family was the 'epitome of conservative values.'

Yep. Pretty much.

[Elegant Mess]

And now for something a bit more light-hearted: Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian[tm][/tm] now has several Facebook postings about Joshley Madison.

Quoting from the resume that got him his job at the Family Research Council, Josh Duggar brags: “I've been the biggest hypocrite ever!†Bristol Palin takes strong exception.

facebook.com/pages/Mrs-Betty-Bowers-Americas-Best-Christian/312383761871?ref=mf