Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[Hera]

Where? Link please? :)

Interesting. I was actually surprised that the FRC statement came down so hard on Josh. I wouldn't be smacking my lips so soon if I were them. As more information is released, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few more FRC names popped up. "Pro Family Values" is basically code for "Obnoxious Hypocrite of the Highest Order."

[Lovebug]

My biggest laugh from comment thus far, found on the 19KAC Facebook page...

"...Josh your mother should have swallowed you"

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm sad that SNL won't have new episodes for another month. Between this and the stupidity of Trump, I think they could fill up the entire show.

I hope Bill Maher has something to say about this tonight, tbh. lol

[Firiel]

I guess you could make the case that she IS abused. Emotionally at least due to her culture .

Logically, it is hard for me to understand why, when the resources are out there why people in abusive relationships can't reach out and utilize the resources. Just thinking of my kids, I would lay down my life to keep them out of an abusive situation- even to financial/other detriment to myself. Would it be ideal? Hell no. Would I do it to protect their lives or mine? Without hesitation. Like I said , I think it's very easy to make a decision from the "outside" and say what I would hypothetically do in that situation. I wholehearted acknowledge that.

I feel bad for anyone in an abusive situation: I think I'm more fired up about her, specifically, because they've spent years saying they are better than the rest of us because they are pure and yada yada and its crap.

I don't know that Anna was in an abusive marriage (though think that many people who are serial cheaters are at least emotionally abusive). But what makes it so difficult for women (or men) to leave abusive partners is the huge power imbalance between the two people in the relationship. The patriarchal approach of ATI kind of builds that imbalance in, so even if Josh is "just" a total asshat and not abusive, there is still a huge power imbalance there that is preventing her from leaving.

She can. People have, and I hope she does. I think she can be stronger than anyone (FJers, Duggars, Kellers, Josh) gives her credit for. But it's really hard. It's not the same as someone who has been educated, employed, and taught that she is a equal human being leaving. Cults are abusive, pretty much by definition. That's why it's so hard for people to leave them.

[sophrosyne]

I wonder what 'professional counselors' the Duggars are bringing in to support Josh, Anna, and the family (or what Christian knights they're mustering to storm Satan's hidden fortress).

I fear the 'professionals' will be Chris and Anne Hogan of the Noble Call Institute. Chris Hogan, remember, was the relationship coach genius who put that piece of rebar at JB's throat in the 19Kids episode "Love & Marriage," telling JB that "it's standing between you and your spouse."

[somewhereinbetween]

I'm the first person to call Anna out on all her stupid stuff, and God knows she has done some STUPID STUFF, but the Anna blaming in this thread makes me sad. I especially don't understand why it matters whether Anna is weak or not. Fuck, if I had 4 kids in 5 years, made two cross-country moves, and married into the Duggar family after a cloistered childhood of brainwashing, I'd be weak as hell! I would literally blow over in the wind! To me, being a feminist by definition means looking out for your weaker sisters.

I'd really like to share this engaging article about why individuals stay in an abusive relationship, it's the article that changed my opinion on this subject several years ago: pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-does-she-stay-with-that-jerk.html

[Letgo]

Could Josh have been seeking other women because he wanted something he was unable/unwilling to experience with his wife? Could he see his wife more as a mother figure or somehow not debased enough to be a sexual being? Because wanting sex is bad, even though a wife is there to fill his every need. Josh's interests in finding a woman to cheat with on AM were pretty normal-there was nothing there that struck me as kinky, extreme, weird, etc. However, he was not raised with a "sex is normal and healthy" attitude. Sex was bad until one married-how does one turn off THAT attitude instantly? Interest in sex is even prohibited during courtship-many fundies mention keeping the relationship pure and free from improper thoughts until after the wedding. Some of them can't even express emotion prior to the wedding; there is no "I love you" before it. Emotion is bad, love is a decision.

The ATI attitude toward sex is far more than remaining pure and virginal until the wedding night. Josh may not have been able to overcome his upbringing, especially since he had already had issues with his molestation of his sisters. Who knows what horrible and damaging things he was told during the "counseling" he received from church leaders, the ATI people where he was sent to do hard labor, or any retraining camps offered by Gothard. His sisters mentioned how changed Josh was when he returned after his supposed treatment. They said he was more "tame." That description sends chills down my spine. Josh does not have enough education or normal life experience to know how much harmful the ATI stuff can be. He really does need REAL counseling-he is one messed up guy. He made his own terrible choices, but on some level I feel sorry for him; he likely doesn't even know how and why he is so messed up, other than Satan. I would hope that somewhere out there is a real counselor who was also raised in ATI who "gets" it. I can dream...

I feel so bad for Anna. I really do fear that she will be held at least partially responsible for Josh's actions. And I think some of that will come from herself. "If only I had been more this, done more of that..." Anna is not in any way to blame for what Josh did, regardless of what did or did not happen in their marriage. I would hope someone in her life can tell her that, instead of "be available to fill his need at all times." What about her needs? You know, for a faithful husband? Michelle and her "fill his need" comment infuriates me! It implies that women have no sex drive. It's all about the husband and what HE wants. Women don't matter, except as far as what they do for a man. Poor all ATI girls and women.

[sophrosyne]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I am trying to keep up and am finding it impossible. Somebody commented on another website that there is a Facebook account under the email address Josh used on his AM account. I haven't had time to do much snooping yet to see if I can find anything interesting.

https:// www. facebook.com/joe.smithson.9028?fref=ts

Probably already been said upthread, but this Facebook page uses the photo of Jonathan Blankfein, a Goldman Sachs executive's son (so it isn't some 'real' Joe Smithson, who happens to have the same name as Josh's Ashley Madison name). And the user's Facebook friends include strippers and models, the majority of whom are from Arkansas.

So it seems as if those persistent rumors about Josh being seen in Arkansas strip clubs are likely quite true!

[VelociRapture]

No matter what, a person of normal intelligence in the USA who is not physically being held against their will has options, choices, and opportunities to make their life something healthy and something that has personal power.

To say there's no other option is for her to once again give away her personal power and strength. There's always another option as long as there is freedom in our country and resources for women living in abusive situations. And Anna IS living in an abusive and neglectful situation in all ways that I can think of.

The name of this board is " FREE Jinger".

Anna needs the message that she can be free, too. She has ample grounds for leaving Josh, even in her religion.

Just want to take a moment to respond to this part. I did not state that she has no other options - I did say she may feel like she has no other options though. I think you may have misinterpreted that (I may not have been clear enough.)

I'm aware that she has other options and I wish she would take them. She could leave if she really wanted to. It would be very difficult and would mean leaving pretty much everyone and everything she knows behind. . . but she could do it. I don't doubt she is smart enough to know that, just that she may not realize it is a valid option for her specific situation.

As much as we like to think she has ample grounds to leave him her faith may not allow her to do so (someone with a background in this brand of Fundie may be able to clarify). If Josh were physically abusing her, maybe she would have grounds. . . but an affair? Probably not.

As I said to lascuba, there is a middle ground between Anna-bashing and Anna-worshipping. She isn't a martyr for staying, but she isn't necessarily doing anything wrong by staying either.

She is a victim in this specific situation at this specific moment in time. Her husband cheated on her. She deserves some level of sympathy for having to deal with that on such a public level. Beyond that though? I think that depends on personal preference and how she reacts publicly. If she trashes Josh constantly in interviews yet remains with him, then no more sympathy from me - because at that point she isn't actively looking for a solution to make her situation better.

[EmmieJ]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

Agree 100%. I'd like to add that I believe Anna truly does love Josh, and wants her marriage to last. I am sure she's reeling right now from the latest revelations but probably praying constantly for help in being able to forgive him and "help" him move past all this. Not only has she been indoctrinated her entire life that the greatest (and only) role for a female is to get married and have as many babies as possible; this appears to actually be something that brings her happiness. She loves being married, being a SAHM, having babies, being part of her cult. This makes her happy. She doesn't want out. What she wants is for Josh to repent and sin no more, and if he has multiple failures but each time seeks forgiveness, that's what she'll give him. Because she does not want to leave him, nor this lifestyle.

[MalteseBaby]

...

WUT.

And the Overreaction of the Year award goes to...

:roll:

Go back to her post and see her posting font of THIS SIZE

to me, then tell me this wasn't an angry self- righteous post to me. I don't deal with people who post in screaming fonts to me. On most discussion boards, it's not allowed. Since it is allowed here, I have stopped it by using the CP tools I have. I tend to think most posters would do the same.

The real issue here is that IF we don't support Anna Duggar leaving an abusive marriage and a cheating spouse for her sake and for the sake of 4 children and probably more to come, to leave a spouse who likely had sex with anonymous women, the AM ones likely paid escorts, then how can we call ourselves " Free anyone"?

Jinger was the one chosen, but it seems to me that Anna needs support to find her own strength, her own voice, her best course of action for her children and for herself. FJ has been quoted all over the Internet regarding Josh Duggar. Maybe a positive quote about Anna's choices will also reach the media quoting FJ.

[Talitha Cumi]

I think that the way he was raised played into him not respecting his wife and the way he treated her. Treating women as objects who are always under the authority of a man can easily lead to a guy growing up thinking it is okay to treat his wife poorly. It could be that he would have always been a major jerk, but the way he was raised couldn't have helped curb these tendencies.

This exactly. You don't value something you don't have to work for. He's given respect and submission for the sole reason that he has a penis is her headship. What did he have to do to earn it? What did he have the opportunity to do? They were never alone, never in a non-structured, unplanned situation.

How would Josh act if they were alone on a date and the car ran out of gas-- would he walk a mile to the gas station or put the moves on her? How would he act toward a server at a restaurant if the food came out wrong? If she was sick, would he bring her water and crackers?

Who knows? They never had a chance to find out. He did nothing to earn her respect and submission other than be male. How valuable is that?

That's something that I realized when I read his OKCupid profile. He was looking for someone who would choose to be with him-- not because Jesus said, but because she wanted to. He wanted an equal, not someone who deliberately put herself below him.

I have lots of thoughts on this subject, but I don't want to write a wall of text.

[Rachel333]

The real issue here is that IF we don't support Anna Duggar leaving an abusive marriage and a cheating spouse for her sake and for the sake of 4 children and probably more to come, to leave a spouse who likely had sex with anonymous women, the AM ones likely paid escorts, then how can we call ourselves " Free anyone"?

Jinger was the one chosen, but it seems to me that Anna needs support to find her own strength, her own voice, her best course of action for her children and for herself. FJ has been quoted all over the Internet regarding Josh Duggar. Maybe a positive quote about Anna's choices will also reach the media quoting FJ.

What? No one is saying they don't support Anna Duggar leaving, just that we don't blame her for being so brainwashed that she doesn't see it as an option.

[polecat]

snipped for brevity

Your rationale is pathetic. You are not even making sense, really, since you say you did get out ( do you know RR? :)) but you feel oh, so sorry for poor little Anna who doesn't have the same right to walk away and to public help and assistance with her career and her chidrens' care.

Your anger is still crippling you. I have absolutely no respect for you as a poster for screaming at me in huge font and cursing at me. Don't reply to me because you just earned the " Foe" status from me. I don't take your type of abuse.

Razing Ruth happened before my time, but calling (or insinuating) that I'm a fraud doesn't really change the truth of my words. It is not easy to leave everything and everyone behind. I'm not denying Anna the right to do anything. How could I be? I'm just saying it's not nearly as easy as some people here seem to think, and yeah, I take offense at you or anyone saying that a woman in an abusive situation is weak if she doesn't leave.

As for foe -- darn. I'm really hurt.

[Vio1et]

I wonder where the Keller's are in all of this? What is going on in Ma and Pa's heads right now> I know if my dad was Anna's father, Josh would be packed and hitting road- blazing the dusty trail out of Dodge. My dad lives by the rule "You hurt my daughter, I'm coming to hurt you".

I'm hoping Ma and Pa Keller have gassed up the old Church van and are driving like maniacs to get to Arkansas to support their daughter. I hope they are mad as hell at Josh and they aren't taking any of this lying down. However, I have a feeling that they may go to Arkansas but once there they will surround Josh and the Duggar clan in prayer.

I'm really not a big advocate for violence believe me. But for once I would love to see Pa Keller get his tighty whiteys in a bunch over the mistreatment of one of his daughters. Maybe Pa Keller isn't a fighter, but I guarantee he knows some. If I were Pa Keller I would put the fear of God and the prison ministry into Josh, so Josh would be looking over his shoulder for a long time to come.

I would hope her parents would be rallying around Anna right now but I don't think they're very bright. I think they're the types that just believe and do what they're told and I doubt there's ever been an independent thought between the two of them. I have a feeling that when they agreed to let Anna marry Josh that they probably agreed to let Jim Bob have the control.

[VelociRapture]

What? No one is saying they don't support Anna Duggar leaving, just that we don't blame her for being so brainwashed that she doesn't see it as an option.

Yeah. . . I don't see any comments along those lines either. A lot of comments - my own included - have stated that we don't blame her for wanting to leave, wanting to stay, or not realizing she has legitimate other options. . . but nothing that says we don't support Anna if she does choose to leave.

[Old Arrow]

Longtime lurker here….But wanted to share my thoughts.

I think maybe Josh closed his Ashley Madison account when he did was because someone he may have chatted with, or met, on AM recognized him. Think about it-the Duggars are well known as a group. Unless you’re a leg humper or FJ snarker the kids all run together. But then Josh gets his face plastered all over the media after Joshgate 1 and he is a lot more recognizable. I wonder how many will come out and sell their story.

I think the Duggars lied to the Kellers by omission- probably mentioned “sin in the camp†and they, like I would have assumed back then, thought it was something akin to mowing the grass in a bikini. I also don’t think Josh came to them and confessed his molestation when he was 14/15. I think he “came to them†after they called him down and confronted him with whatever evidence they had-then his tender heart kicked in and he confessed. I also think (and I forget the timelines and am too lazy to look) the only reason he was taken to the police, confessed in “church†and sent to Little Rock was because the family of the babysitter said take care of it, or we will.

[browncoatslytherin]

Go back to her post and see her posting font of THIS SIZE

to me, then tell me this wasn't an angry self- righteous post to me. I don't deal with people who post in screaming fonts to me. On most discussion boards, it's not allowed. Since it is allowed here, I have stopped it by using the CP tools I have. I tend to think most posters would do the same.

The real issue here is that IF we don't support Anna Duggar leaving an abusive marriage and a cheating spouse for her sake and for the sake of 4 children and probably more to come, to leave a spouse who likely had sex with anonymous women, the AM ones likely paid escorts, then how can we call ourselves " Free anyone"?

Jinger was the one chosen, but it seems to me that Anna needs support to find her own strength, her own voice, her best course of action for her children and for herself. FJ has been quoted all over the Internet regarding Josh Duggar. Maybe a positive quote about Anna's choices will also reach the media quoting FJ.

i sensed a little anger, but i feel you may have misinterpreted it and taken it a little farther than what it was meant as.

we do want to support anna. we want her to leave and make her own way on her own terms. but it is not as simple as that for her. i'm not sure your background, but i have been raised heavily as ifb and was ati for a time, so i understand their circle. and, while i was able to get out, as i said upthread it was "easier" being as i always felt that i didn't belong in that world...and even so it took time and drastic circumstances to get me to break away. anna is - or at least, certainly was - very happy and fulfilled in that role. it will naturally be much more difficult for her. not impossible, but much more improbable. it's not as simple as just "reaching out" and accessing available resources.

i think it's more difficult to understand if one hasn't been raised in that world. things that seem like they should be simple and obvious just aren't, and that's hard to explain sometimes, frustrating, even.

also, i'm not sure what boards you typically frequent, but in about 10 years of my forum hopping (give or take), i've never encountered a "no caps" rule. not saying they aren't out there, just saying i haven't personally stumbled upon it in the various and a sundry forums i've participated in. i'm sorry that you take it the way that you do, but i would hope that if i occasionally go all caps for emphasis that no one takes it personally.

[sisterwives]

[snip]Jinger was the one chosen, but it seems to me that Anna needs support to find her own strength, her own voice, her best course of action for her children and for herself. FJ has been quoted all over the Internet regarding Josh Duggar. Maybe a positive quote about Anna's choices will also reach the media quoting FJ.

Absolutely nobody has said they wouldn't support Anna leaving though? If anything, everyone has said that they hope she leaves. But realistically, she probably will not. Hell, secular women, with large support networks, jobs, and resources within arms reach can have a hard time leaving abusive/cheating spouses. I would love for Anna to leave, but realistically speaking, I see her weathering the storm because that is how she's been raised. She may even deflect blame from Josh onto herself or the evil outside world.

[Firiel]

Apparently, we're the ones infantilizing Anna.

I think Mac has a speech problem and I also think Marcus is speech delayed. I've never heard him make one single sound.

I don't think Anna is capable of teaching pre-schoolers the very basics, even, she is so dumb.

My son was speaking in 3-4 word sentences by 9 months, and was reading simple childrens' books by 13 months. By 24 months, he could read the newspaper and then explain what the article was about.

He is an exceptionally smart person, but his early skills, including language, were fostered by intensive interaction with him from birth. No one ever talked baby talk to him- we hate it.

I took him to the supermarket and would read food labels to him as I shopped. He learned instinctively because his world was saturated with FUN bonding experiences with his parents and my parents. All of us are college- educated, my ex-husband and I having multiple college degrees.

It's obvious to me that J and A's kids are getting the bare bones to just get by from their uneducated parents, IMO.

I think it's pretty infantalizing to say a grown-ass woman is so dumb she hasn't even mastered enough concepts to teach pre-schoolers, but that's just me...

[polecat]

I don't know that Anna was in an abusive marriage (though think that many people who are serial cheaters are at least emotionally abusive). But what makes it so difficult for women (or men) to leave abusive partners is the huge power imbalance between the two people in the relationship. The patriarchal approach of ATI kind of builds that imbalance in, so even if Josh is "just" a total asshat and not abusive, there is still a huge power imbalance there that is preventing her from leaving.

She can. People have, and I hope she does. I think she can be stronger than anyone (FJers, Duggars, Kellers, Josh) gives her credit for. But it's really hard. It's not the same as someone who has been educated, employed, and taught that she is a equal human being leaving. Cults are abusive, pretty much by definition. That's why it's so hard for people to leave them.

I don't know that she was physically abused (going to guess not, but there's no way for me to know), but she definitely was spiritually abused and very likely emotionally abused. To me, abuse is abuse, though.

edited because I used the wrong word

[friendofgreen]

if anyone knows Josh's mistress--can we please get her to join FJ?

:stir-pot:

[polecat]

Go back to her post and see her posting font of THIS SIZE

to me, then tell me this wasn't an angry self- righteous post to me. I don't deal with people who post in screaming fonts to me. On most discussion boards, it's not allowed. Since it is allowed here, I have stopped it by using the CP tools I have. I tend to think most posters would do the same.

The real issue here is that IF we don't support Anna Duggar leaving an abusive marriage and a cheating spouse for her sake and for the sake of 4 children and probably more to come, to leave a spouse who likely had sex with anonymous women, the AM ones likely paid escorts, then how can we call ourselves " Free anyone"?

Jinger was the one chosen, but it seems to me that Anna needs support to find her own strength, her own voice, her best course of action for her children and for herself. FJ has been quoted all over the Internet regarding Josh Duggar. Maybe a positive quote about Anna's choices will also reach the media quoting FJ.

Actually, I just increased the size of the one sentence of *yours -- a sentence to which I was responding. You'd bolded a bunch of stuff in your own comment, so it was easier to just enlarge that one sentence than it was to somehow try to point out which bolding was mine. I apologize that it came off as me screaming at you. It wasn't intended.

[MalteseBaby]

Just want to take a moment to respond to this part. I did not state that she has no other options - I did say she may feel like she has no other options though. I think you may have misinterpreted that (I may not have been clear enough.)

I'm aware that she has other options and I wish she would take them. She could leave if she really wanted to. It would be very difficult and would mean leaving pretty much everyone and everything she knows behind. . . but she could do it. I don't doubt she is smart enough to know that, just that she may not realize it is a valid option for her specific situation.

As much as we like to think she has ample grounds to leave him her faith may not allow her to do so (someone with a background in this brand of Fundie may be able to clarify). If Josh were physically abusing her, maybe she would have grounds. . . but an affair? Probably not.

As I said to lascuba, there is a middle ground between Anna-bashing and Anna-worshipping. She isn't a martyr for staying, but she isn't necessarily doing anything wrong by staying either.

She is a victim in this specific situation at this specific moment in time. Her husband cheated on her. She deserves some level of sympathy for having to deal with that on such a public level. Beyond that though? I think that depends on personal preference and how she reacts publicly. If she trashes Josh constantly in interviews yet remains with him, then no more sympathy from me - because at that point she isn't actively looking for a solution to make her situation better.

Thanks for your post, VR. I am NOT blaming Anna, Josh was and is the guilty party here. Anna didn't ask for this and she deserved better. But, it has happened and life moves in one direction- forward.

Looking backwards is not productive when the situation is as bad as this situation is concerning the facts are about Josh Duggar's actions. I'm a " looking forward" type of thought process individual.

I have seen women killed by their non-loving spouses because the woman wouldn't leave him. I've dealt with the aftermath of so many murders where the woman stayed in a loveless or otherwise extremely dysfunctional relationship because she needed love, she needed him, she needed the security. And what she got in the end was a coffin.

My own best friend of 25 years' was murdered last year by a man with a propensity for cheating. She confronted him one AM with a friend of hers with her. He shot both of them, their bodies so riddled with bullets that the state forensic pathologist could not count the bullet wounds.

I grieve for her every day. She is the one who helped me leave a bad marriage many years ago, and I was not able to be there to help her. We texted every day but we lived 1000 miles away from each other. I had no idea she was in a dangerous situation.

Because I know how badly these types of situations can get in a hurry, I definitely do think the best place for Anna right now is far away from Josh's reach. They each need time and resources to help each one understand who they are as individuals, to get past the shock to be able to make good decisions.

Blame has no place in the present. The facts are ( probably mostly) known.

If Anna chooses to stay, as I think she probably will, then 4 small children are doomed to a very sad life in fundieland with a cheater as a dad and a mom who has to be devastated at the present time and probably will never trust him again.

[Rachel333]

Apparently, we're the ones infantilizing Anna.

I think it's pretty infantalizing to say a grown-ass woman is so dumb she hasn't even mastered enough concepts to teach pre-schoolers, but that's just me...

Well, to be fair, I'm sure anyone seems dumb next to an "exceptionally smart person" whose skills were fostered from birth by intensive interaction with adults with multiple college degrees. ;)