Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[fraurosena]

Count me in the camp that feels very, very sorry for Anna and exponentially sorrier for the M kids.

I was raised in a very liberal home by feminist parents. I am educated. And seven years ago, in my early 30s, found myself in a relationship with a recovering alcoholic. We married, I got pregnant, he relapsed. It took FIVE YEARS of escalating emotional and verbal abuse, much of it IN FRONT of my daughters from my first marriage and our son, for me to FINALLY work through the emotional mess and decide to leave. The children and I are moving out on August 31. (Side note: reading here over the past couple of years has played a big part in me reconnecting with my inner strength, so THANK YOU all!)

Never in a million trillion years would I have ever thought I would become a person who stayed in that kind of an environment. Who exposed her children to that. But I did. I can't even begin to imagine what it is like for those of you who grew up in fundie households and struggled to break free of that. Bottom line, I don't think Anna has the emotional or coping skills to even begin to process any of this in a healthy way, thanks to her upbringing. She may be a full grown adult, a mother, etc., but she has the emotional maturity of an adolescent. And that's by design of her cult.

Re the bolded: I totally agree with this!

But if it is true for Anna, it is also true for Josh... So, reprehensible as his actions are, I don't see him as a responsible adult and I judge his actions as those of an immature adolecent. Does that make his actions any less awful? No, not at all. Should he suffer the consequences? Hell yes!

But I do think the circumstances of his upbringing within this insanely restrictive cult are at the root of his behavior. To me, he just looks like a young teenager acting out rebelliously. Again, this in no way lessens what he has done and he is still a scumbag for doing it, but it does offer a why, and it is my hope that this rebellion will end up with him leaving the cult (and writing that tell all ;) ).

[browncoatslytherin]

I was talking about addiction in general. And I think in this case, it's nonsense. It's an excuse.

It's just something I've seen play out over and over and over again in fundies, which definitely colors my opinion. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

i agree, i don't think he is truly addicted to anything, whether it's porn or sex. having a higher sex drive than your spouse or having different needs does not equal addiction.

[FundieFarmer]

OR, there's no "close insider" and it's simply somebody random from the town or publishing company blowing smoke out of their ass.

It's happened before.

[from the bible belt]

A partial quote from Gandalf. . . on a thread about Josh Duggar. . . concerning his admission that he sought affairs. . .

I'm calling it now. The Rapture is here. Everyone! Grab your tinfoil hats and join me in the bunker for drinks!

You got to love Gandalf! I will join you ;)

[justoneoftwo]

OR, there's no "close insider" and it's simply somebody random from the town or publishing company blowing smoke out of their ass.

It's happened before.

I think its this. Amy doesn't actually seem close enough to be an insider here. Also Jessa was pissed about what the insider said about her in the last report . . .

[lascuba]

My impression from his AM and alleged OKC profiles was that he just wanted sex with someone not Anna--there's no addiction issue here (the vast majority of men could be considered sex addicts if that were the case). Honestly, i get the feeling that he just doesn't like Anna. He finds her stupid, uninteresting, unexciting, but she's his wife and she's a good wife in that she ticks all the lines of the good fundie wife checklist, so he's never going to leave her. Hell, I know plenty of secular people who do that...they're not actually into their partners, but they're the "type" of people they want to settle down with, so they stick with them.

[VelociRapture]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

[Firiel]

Re the bolded: I totally agree with this!

But if it is true for Anna, it is also true for Josh... So, reprehensible as his actions are, I don't see him as a responsible adult and I judge his actions as those of an immature adolecent. Does that make his actions any less awful? No, not at all. Should he suffer the consequences? Hell yes!

But I do think the circumstances of his upbringing within this insanely restrictive cult are at the root of his behavior. To me, he just looks like a young teenager acting out rebelliously. Again, this in no way lessens what he has done and he is still a scumbag for doing it, but it does offer a why, and it is my hope that this rebellion will end up with him leaving the cult (and writing that tell all ;) ).

See, IMO, they were both raised in the same culture-- one that is built on oppressors and victims. I feel sorry for these people as long as they are victims. But Josh, at some point, happily accepted the power the culture offered him and became an oppressor within the culture. At that point, my sympathy for a person really drops off, even though I do still have sympathy for the pretty awful childhood and indoctrination that contributed to him becoming the way that he is. I also don't have much sympathy for Jill R., who has taken on an oppressor role in regards to her children.

[Lewy]

My impression from his AM and alleged OKC profiles was that he just wanted sex with someone not Anna--there's no addiction issue here (the vast majority of men could be considered sex addicts if that were the case). Honestly, i get the feeling that he just doesn't like Anna. He finds her stupid, uninteresting, unexciting, but she's his wife and she's a good wife in that she ticks all the lines of the good fundie wife checklist, so he's never going to leave her. Hell, I know plenty of secular people who do that...they're not actually into their partners, but they're the "type" of people they want to settle down with, so they stick with them.

Yeah, it's the good old 'mess around with the bad girls for fun and then settle down with a nice 'wife material' girl and have the kids and the house' thing....but in reverse because Josh was never given a chance to mess around and be a normal young male adult before getting married.

[HoneyBunny]

While Josh made his own bad decisions, I don't think JB and M are excused at all, even beyond the fact that they obviously didn't get a troubled teen the help he so desperately needed. They lived in a three bedroom house and had eleventy dozen kids. JB and M were humping like rabbits (probably) every night a few inches away from those kids. That has to leave an impression on a pubescent boy. It reminds me so much of Lori Alexander's post about how parents should continue to have sex even if their kids are sleeping in the same room (as on vacation). No, no, no, no!!! It seemed pervy then and it seems even more pervy now. For Pete's sake, be adults and put off fulfilling your sexual desires until you have some privacy.

[makauflin]

Re: what he wanted from AM "... someone I can teach..." ??

I just threw up in my mouth. Won't get that image out of my head anytime soon! Where's the bleach on the brain emoticon?!

[TaterTotRancher]

Just watched the wedding video where Josh sings to Anna. Started watching with a little giggling snark and then it hit me like a lead balloon. That poor innocent girl never had a chance. Her upbringing, being railroaded into a marriage & not even realizing she was being railroaded, unknowingly being the one who was supposed to "fix" her scumbag husband. She really loves him and thinks he is marrying her for love. I guess my "mama bear" instincts kicked in and to quote my grandmother, "Someone needs to tan his hide!!!" (But then Joshie might like that...who knows?)

[HarryPotterFan]

You got to love Gandalf! I will join you ;)

Oh crap factory, my phone changed arrives to stories.

I wonder what Gandalf would say about all this shit.

And lmao FundieFarmer about the Calvinist thing. Good way to explain a baby who was conceived before marriage!

[MoonFace]

While Josh made his own bad decisions, I don't think JB and M are excused at all, even beyond the fact that they obviously didn't get a troubled teen the help he so desperately needed. They lived in a three bedroom house and had eleventy dozen kids. JB and M were humping like rabbits (probably) every night a few inches away from those kids. That has to leave an impression on a pubescent boy. It reminds me so much of Lori Alexander's post about how parents should continue to have sex even if their kids are sleeping in the same room (as on vacation). No, no, no, no!!! It seemed pervy then and it seems even more pervy now. For Pete's sake, be adults and put off fulfilling your sexual desires until you have some privacy.

If they were dry humping in public (playing mini golf) can you imagine what the kids might have seen when the cameras were off?

It wouldn't surprise me if, during the premarital 'counseling' sessions JB and M stopped just short of a how to demonstration.

[justoneoftwo]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

I want to add, non Fundies stay with cheaters all the time. People do work through it. I don't know if I would, but I would probably try. I certainly wouldn't judge someone who did. I feel bad that she doesn't think she has a choice, but if she did know she did she might still chose to stay.

[lascuba]

Yes, women from all walks of life stay with cheaters for all sorts of reason. I'm less sympathetic to women who stay when finances aren't a major concern,unless they get to fool around to and aren't just silently putting up with it, but whatever, I'm not living their lives.

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

Add to that what people have already mentioned, that she's probably questioning where SHE caused Josh to cheat on her, what SHE could have done to prevent it, how was SHE not "a good enough helpmeet" and not able to fulfill his needs... I think the poor woman is probably heaping enough scorn on herself with the way she's been thoroughly brainwashed... on top of that, she just had a baby so she's probably physically drained as well as emotionally.

I DO feel sorry for her. I DON'T blame her for not having figured out a way to get out of this. I DO hope that she finds a way to do so.

Josh? I felt sorry for him in a way when the news of the molestation broke, because I felt like Boob and Mullet failed him by not getting him proper treatment when the first incident happened. Now? I'm not so sure. I do agree that his upbringing was completely screwed up and had a hand to play in all this. But... that doesn't give him a pass on anything that he's done, and his apologies seem more "I'm sorry I got caught" than "I did something terrible and I'm ashamed of myself".

[polecat]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

[justoneoftwo]

Yes, women from all walks of life stay with cheaters for all sorts of reason. I'm less sympathetic to women who stay when finances aren't a major concern,unless they get to fool around to and aren't just silently putting up with it, but whatever, I'm not living their lives.

I am not saying I would have sympathy, but its a life choice. People make all kinds of choices I wouldn't, for all kinds of reasons. If they then complain and want me to feel bad for them thats one thing, if they just want to not be judged for how they live their lives, thats another.

[from the bible belt]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

Thank you for this!!

Yes people can get in relationships that get abusive and blaming that all to themselves at one point. I got beaten, forced to sex against my will, locked up on occasions and still was wandering what the hell I did wrong. There is a movie ( i forgot the the title) with a woman in it who got beaten and that was because the closets and handkerchiefs where no presented as they should have . I have been there...........

My IQ is 138 but still i was there. It takes a lot to get out of a reliant and repressive relationship like this. I am not a idiot, not stupid, i was just a young girl and was learned that if something happened to me like this I was to blame and just try harder.

Since then i became a RN, oncology nurse and a research nurse (with one son for the last two parts) It can happen to a lot of woman an d not only the idiots

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Thank you for this!!

Yes people can get in relationships that get abusive and blaming that all to themselves at one point. I got beaten, forced to sex against my will, locked up on occasions and still was wandering what the hell I did wrong. There is a movie ( i forgot the the title) with a woman in it who got beaten and that was because the closets and handkerchiefs where no presented as they should have . I have been there...........

My IQ is 138 but still i was there. It takes a lot to get out of a reliant and repressive relationship like this. I am not a idiot, not stupid, i was just a young girl and was learned that if something happened to me like this I was to blame and just try harder.

Since then i became a RN, oncology nurse and a research nurse (with one son for the last two parts) It can happen to a lot of woman an d not only the idiots

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm glad you got out.

[Hisey]

I have felt terrible about this since the news came out.

There's so much talk about how JB and Michelle should've gotten Josh "proper counseling" or "taken him to see a real professional". I wanted to offer some perspective from the "professional" side of things.

I have worked as a counselor for adolescent boys who have committed sexual crimes.

Therapy with sexually deviant adolescent boys. . . it's not like taking an aspirin. You don't just "cure" the boy in a six week session. These boys can be sneaky and they are very driven by things they don't really understand (or want to understand). As adolescents, they are unwilling to listen to the "wisdom" of the adults around them. Plus, it is very difficult to work with clients who don't want to be in therapy, and kids usually don't want to be there (this is true for younger kids as well). There's another problem with working with kids--their lives are still very controlled by the adults around them. If that is dysfunctional, therapy is greatly hindered.

So "proper counseling" once a week for a few months might or might not have helped Josh.

You know what probably would have helped? Telling him masturbation is healthy and normal. Allowing him time alone with girls his age who were not his sisters. Parents who were modest and discreet about their own sexuality. Getting married to someone he truly knew, and (I feel this is very important) delaying childbearing for many years.

Josh is responsible for his own actions. True. But nearly all the adolescent boys in my therapy group came from troubled families. Not all, but almost all. So there's that.

[antwan]

I've had similar thoughts. Working in the political arena in D.C., Josh would have seen a lot of things that contradicted his upbringing. He would meet and work with conservative and Christians who didn't grow up isolated, who go out and do fun things with their friends. People who go to the beach for the weekend and wear bathing suits. He would see single men and women have private conversations and who do things together without a chaperone and don't fall into bed together. He would see people who date normally, date multiple people and still have good, happy marriages. He seemed to go to a lot of parties, he would see people having cocktails with no harm coming to them. And he would be working with and encountering a lot of people with real educations from accredited universities and law schools. Even with his smug know-it-all attitude he would have realized how inadequate his own education was.

I always figured his job duties consisted only of being a public face, attending events and delivering speeches written by others. He probably thought he'd be doing real work, drafting polices and strategies, etc. But then he was told "let the people with actual educations handle that." If he really is smart (as people have said) that would be very painful for him.

If he gets real, secular mental health help, he'll quickly realize how screwed up the Gothard/ATI philosophy is and how it contributed to his sexual issues.

I'm guessing his family isn't really going to want him around much, so he doesn't really have much to lose there if he breaks away and/or starts telling all. It would be amazing if he wrote a book in conjunction with a mental health professional. He could talk about the way he was raised and things he was taught and the mental health professional could follow up each anecdote with an explanation of why that particular point is actually harmful to people. He could become a go-to guy for reporters and talk show hosts who want to discuss religion and the harms of extremism.

But that also means he would have to think he doesn't have any hope of his family life ever returning to what it was before the scandals broke. Something tells me the full wrath of Jessa is rather scary and something he'd want to avoid.

I completely agree. Very insightfully stated. The thing is, while I find it repulsive what he has done (on both counts, -at home and with this wesbite/affair), I do feel sorry for him. Not in a "poor Josh" way, but in more of a "Your whole Gothard/ATI legalistic, biblical separatist upbringing is pathetic" kind of way. He has no life now, -not the one he previously had and not the one he carved out in DC. Nothing. That said, I personally believe that all adults are accountable for their actions, NO MATTER what happened to them as children. Josh CHOSE this whole Ashley Madison mess, and forced it on his wife and children. THAT will not get an ounce of sympathy from me.

[browncoatslytherin]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

i would like nothing more for anna to break free, but i know that will likely never happen, or if it does it will take a long time of a lot happening to get her to that point.

the thing is, she wasn't just indoctrinated and brainwashed. the same thing happened to me (though admittedly not as extensive as anna). i broke out, but i also never felt like i truly belonged. i always felt like a bit of an outcast, like the circle i was in was not for me.

but anna was very happy in her station, she felt fulfilled. i didn't. and even so, it still took years - and a few drastic events - to make me break away completely. for someone who was getting fulfillment in her position though...even if that fulfillment is starting to wane, it would be nigh impossible to break out of that world. not totally impossible (there's always the potential for a miracle), but still highly improbable.

eta: and like i said, if she does, it would more likely be from a culmination of events over a long period of time, not just after a couple of bomb drops.

[VelociRapture]

Yes, women from all walks of life stay with cheaters for all sorts of reason. I'm less sympathetic to women who stay when finances aren't a major concern,unless they get to fool around to and aren't just silently putting up with it, but whatever, I'm not living their lives.

I get what you're saying. If Anna started giving interviews where she constantly bashes Josh and is looking for pity all while remaining married to him - I would likely agree with you. I have a very low tolerance for bullshit like that; I have the mindset that there is always a solution to a problem and you just have to try and find it. Constantly complaining or looking for sympathy distracts from that.

I doubt that will be the case here though. Anna will not be giving interviews on the subject. If she does, she will stay on script. She may reveal some of the pain this has caused her, but she won't bash her husband and the only thing close to sympathy she will ask for is in pleading for privacy to deal with stuff as a family.

Like others have pointed out, Anna was raised to believe any moral failure her husband commits is a direct result of her behavior and thoughts. Its possible she feels a great deal of guilt and responsibility over the fact that her husband cheated on her, despite the fact that (to all appearances) she did everything she was supposed to do as a good and Go(thar)dly wife.

Anna is no martyr. . . but she also isn't deserving of the blame some posters here (and on other sites) have thrown her way either.

TL;DR Version: Theres a middle ground between Anna-bashing and Anna-worshipping. :lol: