Dillards 41: Chocolate, Cheese, and Other Things More Interesting

[laPapessaGiovanna]

@singsingsing was talking about her own struggle with anxiety and (paraphrasing) how she empathizes with Jill because IF Jill has anxiety sing knows how hard the struggle is for her.

To this you replied that you "100% agree that she has anxiety" that wasn't even what sing said.

You seem to have difficulties with reading comprehension first and secondarily distinguishing between speculation stated as purely theoretical possibility and speculation stated as fact. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

30 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

But I'm legit confused why speculating that someone experiences symptoms of anxiety, possibly an anxiety disorder diagnosis, is considered unacceptable but it entirely okay to speculate that a murder victim abused her kids based on one episode of TV.

a)you were presenting speculation as fact

b)if we had deemed it unacceptable we would have a rule to forbid it, we don't

c) it wasn't just one TV episode but also her blog and the manual she wrote and was proudly displayed on her blog right until the tragedy

30 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

To the point that a person claiming to be a friend of the deceased is essentially branded a liar and trouble maker for questioning the possibility of abuse?

She didn't "question the possibility of abuse", she flat out denied it and demanded that we accepted her opinion as fact.

30 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I mean, psychological diagnosis includes behavioral observation. That doesnt mean you give a diagnosis based on footage from TV but I think it's in real same realm as saying I believe child abuse occurred based on what we saw on TV.

Except that you stated your speculation as fact. Much as when you decided that the person that came here saying that she knew the family was the oldest brother, it didn't matter if clearly it wasn't the case given the details she posted.

30 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Except I think it's a lot less "damaging" to speculate someone may be experiencing mental health symptoms.

Yeah especially when the person you're stating is suffering from anxiety is a known member of a cult that has a oh so healthy approach to mental health.

 

[Coconut Flan]

35 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

And clearly I'm playing devils advocate at this point and ignoring your suggestion.

There is a definite difference in "devil's advocate" and throwing manure into the air.

[Snarkle Motion]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

There is a definite difference in "devil's advocate" and throwing manure into the air.

Doesn't really answer my question though. 

@laPapessaGiovanna Your response was helpful, my understanding is that I need to clearly identify speculation as speculation not fact? Will that help?  As long as I put caveats that I'm speculating (which I often just think is assumed but maybe not)? 

[Beermeet]

9 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

@VelociRapture Your post rang so true with me. My mom was 55 and passed away from stage 3 colon cancer. It was 8 years ago but it completely changed me. Nightmares, PTSD, for years after. I still struggle. I miss her of course, and am sad she hasn't seen her granddaughters grow up because she adored them. But it's deeper. Like the trauma and shock of the whole process just altered my soul. 

So yes, i will give him that. He did go through a lot, and at a young age and close together. I hope his mom stays healthy. Stage four is so scary. 

This recently happened to me.  After my kids diagnosis ( not cancer, but pretty fucking terrible).  My entire being, my soul is damaged and altered.  Its also alive in other ways,  like, enlightenment?  What did not happen is me suddenly hating a group of people.  I'm just a little more fucked up.

[AtlanticTug]

6 hours ago, 12 Hungry Safety Pins said:

I don't think we need to bring disorders into it. Fact is, Jill never spent any time alone. She was always surrounded by people. So she simply doesn't know how to be alone. She never learnt. So it's no wonder that she's terrible at it.

But none of them have ever spent time alone. The fact is that Jill coped with it much worse than say, Jinger, who was whisked away from family immediately. Joy and Jessa also moved on with their husbands probably about the same distance from TTH as Jill did but coped better. That's not to knock Jill at all, people are differently resilient to change.

[fluffernutter]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

This recently happened to me.  After my kids diagnosis ( not cancer, but pretty fucking terrible).  My entire being, my soul is damaged and altered.  Its also alive in other ways,  like, enlightenment?  What did not happen is me suddenly hating a group of people.  I'm just a little more fucked up.

I'm so sorry about your child. I hope he or she is ok. 

[Beermeet]

9 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

I'm so sorry about your child. I hope he or she is ok. 

Thank you!   It's a progressive thing and it's scary but we have a stong family and great support from those who count. : )

[Beermeet]

@AtlanticTug. Love, love, love your post.  So much This. and Yes.  I am experiencing situational anxiety,  this is not who I normally am or who I'd become without the situation.   IMHO, I think this is the case with Jill.  I don't particularly like her, but, I do feel empathy towards her.  

[SassyPants]

Here's what I think. Jill is dysfunctional as an adult in our society. Just like all the adult Duggars not named JB and M Duggar are dysfunctional as adults in our society. The reason they are dysfunction is because their parents controlled them to the point of stunting their intellectual curiosity and emotional growth, period. Josh, Jana, JD, Jessa all dysfunctional as adults in our society. None of them live independent lives or make independent decisions. None of them provide for themselves, independently. Does Jessa, when compared with Jill, appear more functional, sure...but how hard is that when daddy gives your 19 YO husband a job, provides a home, cars and likely pays all the other bills too. Strip away all the free shit, babysitting included, and see how independently functional any of these adults really are.

It's all at the hands of JB and M Duggar- assholes. What they have done to these people borders on criminal.

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Part of Jill's issue as well is that she never needed to think for herself. She just did what JB and M wanted her to do. She never learned how to think critically or have to think what life would be like as an adult. She was so used to being surrounded by people and being a favored child, that she thought it would be an easy transition. 

Guess what Derick is nothing like Daddy! Derick would like to be moving constantly, he wants to be away from the home, he doesn't seem to care that Jill might be scared and lonely. Jill is trying to be the perfect wife that Derick signed up for but she's not exactly what he wanted, I don't think. Either way, she's miserable and he's miserable. 

Quite frankly he probably doesn't comprehend the exact fuckery of JB and M Duggar- it really is mind boggling that these kidults go from being babysat by parents or siblings to "pregnant" within a couple of hours of "I do". 

Too bad, so sad, he bought on and needs to learn to deal.

[klabourdeth]

I think there is a difference when referring to being pro-life vs. pro-birth when it comes to the abortion debate. Which to me could go along with fundie or conservative level.

To me pro-life should not refer to not time in the womb. It should mean adovacting for programs that provide safety nets at all stages of life. I think it's Sweden or Finland has a program where they give families a baby box that has helpful stuff for the baby. Advocates for paid parental leave for a couple of months so that the parents can bond but not be stressed about making ends meet. Also things like being against the death sentence.

For pro-birth is pampering the mother saying everything going to be alright doting her with toys like a big stuff teddy bear. But after the birth disappearing and saying you deserve nothing for having a kid out of wedlock. So pretty much only caring when the kid is in the womb.

[LacyMay]

I'm almost afraid to wade into this, but let's give it a try. 

Regardless of if Jill has any type of anxiety disorder (which for the sake of clarification I would define as it having been diagnosed by a professional using the DSM after meeting her in person multiple times) I think it is safe to say that she's an anxious person. You can be anxious and not have anxiety. 

And that's fine, people have different personalities. Look at Jill and Jana in the wisdom teeth episode, Jill was outwardly more anxious and nervous whereas Janna who was also nervous was more stoic. 

But more importantly is that Jill has *never* had to develop the traits that would counterbalance even a small amount of anxiety in her personality. When has she had to learn or practice resiliency? When has she been taught that she can face and overcome challenges? Jim Bob and Michelle strike me as the fundamentalist version of Snow Plow Parents  (especially for their daughters) And that doesn't promote healthy transitions into adulthood. Maybe she could be diagnosed with something maybe not. It doesn't actually change her (displayed) personality. 

 

As for the pro life discussion. 

(I hate this discussion. I feel like I'm always going to lose.)

Because I believe that abortion is a terrible choice for a women to have to make. But I believe whole heartedly that she has the right to make it. I just think that making it black and white pro choice pro life is awful. I think you can believe that a women has a right to choose while hating that the choice has to be made. Now O just refuse to identify as either pro life or pro choice because I think what I believe is more important than a (often times) narrowly applied label. I read two terrific books that I think really drilled it all home for me, This Common Secret by Susan Wicklund a physician and abortion provider and Unplanned about a planned parenthood employee turned pro life advocate (if reading be warned she very much is now pro life) 

Phoooof I love being able to get that all out there. Thanks FJ. 

[MiddleAgedLady]

Derick tweeted at 1:54am. Do you suppose he was up with the baby? 

 

[Funwithfundies]

48 minutes ago, MiddleAgedLady said:

Derick tweeted at 1:54am. Do you suppose he was up with the baby? 

 

Maybe he was up all night trying to compose a non controversial tweet and this was the result?  

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, LacyMay said:

Because I believe that abortion is a terrible choice for a women to have to make. But I believe whole heartedly that she has the right to make it.

I think that it can be in a lot of circumstances, but for some, it's not so agonizing. I know that if I got pregnant right here right now at this stage in my life in the mindset I'm in and at this place in my career, I wouldn't be too torn. I am not equipped to give a baby a life I think he or she (or some other pronoun, far be it from me to assume) would deserve to have. I would terminate with very few, if any, second thoughts. If I were married to my current boyfriend, more established in my career, and not living with two roommates in a very small apartment, and had to choose between continuing and terminating a pregnancy, it would be a very different choice and different set of circumstances.

I don't like some feminists of my generation making abortion out to be totes no biggie, because it's not exactly a fun situation to be in, and it's not a very pleasant procedure that carries some risks, but I also don't like when people act like it's Sophie's Choice every time a woman has an abortion.

[seraaa]

On 9/11/2017 at 8:24 PM, VelociRapture said:

Other than that, anyone else getting bored with his weird hyperfocus on Transgender people? Seriously dude, get some new material.

If it were three years ago he would be tweeting arguments against equal marriage. Plus ca change. 

On 9/11/2017 at 8:51 PM, Rachel333 said:

I hate the way Christian groups go after international students at the UofA (and other colleges, I would assume). They act really friendly but just see them as potential targets for conversion.

I, too, think it's interesting that they target international students. Are international students regarded as being more religious than home students, and so therefore more open to religious discussions? Or is there another motivation, like wanting to establish themselves in more countries? 

[Eternalbluepearl]

It's interesting to me how when we first met the Duggars, it seemed like JimBob and Michelle were showing everyone how to parent. They had all the answers about how to parent better than worldy smaller families. And now that we are seeing the results, Did Mother of the year Michelle and JimBob turn out better prepared adults? I guess not.

To me, Joy has a chance though because Austin has real skills he uses to make a living and so far isn't attempting to become another preacher. I know I thought this about Derick at one point. Oh Jill will be okay! Derick has a JOB!...He went to college.... 

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

To me, Joy has a chance though because Austin has real skills he uses to make a living and so far isn't attempting to become another preacher. I know I thought this about Derick at one point. Oh Jill will be okay! Derick has a JOB!...He went to college....

Right? It's like I'm nervously keeping an eye on Joy and Austin, just dreading the day when he suddenly announces he's 'going into ministry'...

[Carm_88]

2 hours ago, MiddleAgedLady said:

Derick tweeted at 1:54am. Do you suppose he was up with the baby? 

 

Pftttt Derick, you heathen; it's Hobbit Day. September 22nd is the birthday of Frodo and Bilbo Baggins.  

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

2 hours ago, seraaa said:

I, too, think it's interesting that they target international students. Are international students regarded as being more religious than home students, and so therefore more open to religious discussions? Or is there another motivation, like wanting to establish themselves in more countries? 

I guess I assumed that international students were seen as more vulnerable, because they're away from their friends and family. In some cases, it might be their first time away from home. I think international students are seen as easy marks.

I don't know if that means I'm cynical or that these proselytizers are cynical.

[onekidanddone]

5 hours ago, MiddleAgedLady said:

Derick tweeted at 1:54am. Do you suppose he was up with the baby? 

 

I have a filthy mind.  Time to go wash it out with soap.  Cone, ice cream.. yes, sometimes I channel my inner 12 year old boy.

[seraaa]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:01 PM, bananabread said:

(personally, but not in favor of criminalizing abortion, mainly because that just doesn't work)

As I understand it, describing someone as pro-life would imply that they would favour more legal restrictions, as opposed to somebody who is politically pro-choice, but against abortion as a personal choice for themselves. If somebody is personally against, but supports comprehensive legal access to abortion, I would class them as pro-choice. 

I'm not tuned in to the latest nuances of the argument, though, so that may be nonsense. 

So I'd say that wanting to restrict access to abortion is a necessary but not sufficient condition to be classed as fundie. IMO.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

It's interesting to me how when we first met the Duggars, it seemed like JimBob and Michelle were showing everyone how to parent. They had all the answers about how to parent better than worldy smaller families. And now that we are seeing the results, Did Mother of the year Michelle and JimBob turn out better prepared adults? I guess not.

To me, Joy has a chance though because Austin has real skills he uses to make a living and so far isn't attempting to become another preacher. I know I thought this about Derick at one point. Oh Jill will be okay! Derick has a JOB!...He went to college.... 

IDK- PG right after the I do. IMO, we have to wait to see if it's kid, after kid, after kid. I'm sorry that's not fully functional either. The day never gets longer than 24 hours and theoretically, a fundie family never has more than 2 parents. 2 people for most, can not adequately parent dozen+ numbers of children. Kids/blessing deserve better. If the focus truly was on the blessings, adult parents would know that-

[HumbleJillyMuffin]

7 hours ago, MiddleAgedLady said:

Derick tweeted at 1:54am. Do you suppose he was up with the baby? 

 

The composition of this tweet and the word usage reminds me of The Fabulous David Waller. Totally awkward. 

[Bad Wolf]

That is just a very bizarre tweet. Oh well, better than transgender bashing.