Trace and Lydia 4: Deportation Watch

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Yes, his SOTDRT is showing. Indefinite means "lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time." It can also mean "not clearly expressed or defined; vague."

The mental gymnastics is stunning. Lydia and her family were not given a date when they would be deported but it wasn't as though the government said welcome to your forever home either. If you're following the crisis with Venezuela, you can see how the government works with asylum seekers and how overloaded that system is currently.  

See I don’t think this is SORDRT because overwhelmingly Americans have very limited understanding of US immigration law. Even attorneys will tell you that it rivals tax law in complexity. Deferred action is anything but straightforward.

 I completely agree that their mental gymnastics are stunning, but mostly because they think they should be treated differently than asylum seekers at the southern border (illegals) when their legal claim was so much weaker.

The racism is strong in these people.

[GreenBeans]

2 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I've had friends that wanted to exclusively pump, some that just did formula, and some that did a combo of all 3.  As long as the kid is getting enough nutrition, everyone else can back off.

True!

I was exclusively pumping, it just turned out that way since breastfeeding did not work and I still wanted baby boy to get the milk. But it’s not a thing here, at all. I had never heard of it, it’s not even mentioned as an option in Lamaze classes, it’s always breast feeding or formula, and pumping is more mentioned as an option in special situations (preemies still in hospital, mom having to go out to an important appointment etc.). Maybe it’s because most moms stay home from work for at least 6 months here, most for a year, which means daycare only starts once the child is one year old, and that’s considered early by some.

Posted too soon and can’t edit…

Anyway, I felt really lonely, until I tried googling what I was doing in English and realized there’s a whole world out there of moms exclusively pumping (and a word to describe what I was doing!). It made me feel a lot more “normal”. Here, I always felt like the odd one out when I couldn’t just answer “formula” or “breastfeeding” when asked, but had to go for this lengthy explanation, because exclusively pumping just isn’t a thing here.

[GreenBeans]

17 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

See I don’t think this is SORDRT because overwhelmingly Americans have very limited understanding of US immigration law. Even attorneys will tell you that it rivals tax law in complexity. Deferred action is anything but straightforward.

 

It is, but I would have expected someone intending to marry an immigrant to get informed about these things beforehand, to figure out the best way to approach this.

I have friends with spouses from other countries, and while the average German knows next to nothing about immigration laws, these people all got educated and got legal advice before getting married to figure out the best way to proceed, what documents you need, what impact marriage would have on the immigration status of their spouse, what citizenship their children would hold etc.

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

It is, but I would have expected someone intending to marry an immigrant to get informed about these things beforehand, to figure out the best way to approach this.

I have friends with spouses from other countries, and while the average German knows next to nothing about immigration laws, these people all got educated and got legal advice before getting married to figure out the best way to proceed, what documents you need, what impact marriage would have on the immigration status of their spouse, what citizenship their children would hold etc.

I think this might be in part a cultural thing? In my experience Germans are far more diligent than Americans about having their documents in order, seeking expert advice, etc. My German wife has a whole shelf of binders organizing all the paper documents from her whole life, and that’s so weird to me but fairly normal here. I have maybe four documents I care about, and they’re all in a drawer in my desk.

We didn’t consult a lawyer before getting married (expensive!) and learned what we needed to know from looking at websites and talking to other international couples. But also German immigration law is infinitely more straightforward than in the US. I still don’t have a very clear idea of what we’d have to do if we moved back there. 

I’m sure Trace and Lydia thought it wouldn’t be a problem since the family had been allowed to stay so far, and of course God would be looking after them. Not a great approach, but about what I would expect from people of their background. Regarding Trace being in shock, Americans just don’t have to deal with documents and bureaucracy in daily life to the extent Germans do, and so when something comes up like this when it’s really important to do that, a lot of us are at sea. On the other hand, I would expect anyone who finished high school to know that “indefinitely” does not mean “permanently” and Trace’s eduction certainly doesn’t meet that standard. 

Of course, none of this means they aren’t also entitled, racist assholes. 

[rebeccawriter01]

5 hours ago, noseybutt said:

See I don’t think this is SORDRT because overwhelmingly Americans have very limited understanding of US immigration law. Even attorneys will tell you that it rivals tax law in complexity. Deferred action is anything but straightforward.

 I completely agree that their mental gymnastics are stunning, but mostly because they think they should be treated differently than asylum seekers at the southern border (illegals) when their legal claim was so much weaker.

The racism is strong in these people.

My reference to SOTDRT is primarily about his lack of vocabulary. He quite honestly can't manage to understand a relatively basic word like indefinite. His own teacher/mother can't manage to define it coherently either. 

I would never expect higher-level thinking in terms of a topic and issue as complex as immigration because it goes against their simple-minded expectation that the world and all its problems are answered as some binary function. It is right or wrong. It is good or evil. There is no nuance or thought of impact. So long as people are allowed to homeschool in their country of origin, then they aren't worthy refugees. It is frustrating that they don't see or acknowledge the hypocrisy of it all. The failure to recognize the thousands who are facing similar and worse situations is what is disturbing. The blame game they are playing without a basic understanding of government function is driven by racism and fueled by ignorance. 

[lumpentheologie]

5 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

My reference to SOTDRT is primarily about his lack of vocabulary. He quite honestly can't manage to understand a relatively basic word like indefinite. His own teacher/mother can't manage to define it coherently either. 

Exactly. I’d never expect critical thinking from the Bates, but a basic understanding of what important words mean? Wow, Kelly and Gil, you have really failed your children. 

[Keys]

7 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

Don’t you have the cribs that you can attach to the parents’ bed in the US? Most people I know had one, “Babybay” is a well known brand here. That way, the baby is right there, but still in a safe space.

This is what it looks like: 

 

 

These actually aren’t approved in Canada, so it wasn’t an option for us, unfortunately. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Keys

[Giraffe]

He probably stupidly went into marriage believing it was a panacea against Lydia being deported.

Her parents should be ashamed of themselves! They did their children such a disservice by homeschooling them while not having permanent residency. I’m astounded at the arrogance it took to willfully disobey German law so as to cause great educational harm to their children. They seriously thought “but now it’d be even worse for us to go back” would actually be a good defense. What awful parents. 

[FiveAcres]

I think they may also have bought into the myth that all you have to do to get your green card and a path to citizenship is marry a US citizen. The fact that there are a lot of additional procedures to prevent "abuse" was not recognized because of white Christian privilege.

 

[noseybutt]

8 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

It is, but I would have expected someone intending to marry an immigrant to get informed about these things beforehand, to figure out the best way to approach this.

I have friends with spouses from other countries, and while the average German knows next to nothing about immigration laws, these people all got educated and got legal advice before getting married to figure out the best way to proceed, what documents you need, what impact marriage would have on the immigration status of their spouse, what citizenship their children would hold etc.

I agree on being proactive. And apparently they did hire an attorney. But the difference here is that there was no way to to proceed, or at least no way to proceed without years of waiting.

This is the exact point I am trying to make.

Our lawmakers do not pass immigration legislation every year or two. It’s more like every 15 years or so. This means the immigration is largely being handled by the executive branch and political appointees who enact (often obscure) procedural changes that are extremely difficult to track.

There is the complexity and lack of transparency.

There is also the truth the many situations cannot be rectified. And this is where the US is different from many other countries. You can’t educate your way into status, even with an American spouse and an American child. (On the 3 private immigration bills listed above, one of them was a woman in the US since infancy as an adoptee and now with an active duty military husband and citizen children—there was no path for her.)

We are also different from other countries with deferred status— which basically says you are undocumented but we will look the other way. Most other countries would deport and move on.

With Lydia’s situation, I am guessing the problem from the get go was that she needed to apply from Germany but to go to Germany would mean losing her deferred status and risk being inadmissible since deferred status means you have been in the country undocumented. Also she needs to be extracted from the asylum case and the simple act of extraction would end the deferred action for her.

 I have a lot of empathy for people caught in the cross hairs of American immigration because of the lack of logic and efficiency and the fact that the rules constantly change and, as a layperson, the changes are impossible to track.

Where I have zero empathy and downright anger is that these people think their story is somehow unique and special and that they should be owed citizenship while everyone else is “illegal.” 

That’s the part that is a head scratcher.

They had a weak asylum claim and an unusual ruling. Everything else Is what asylum seekers in the US deal with on the regular.

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

My reference to SOTDRT is primarily about his lack of vocabulary. He quite honestly can't manage to understand a relatively basic word like indefinite. His own teacher/mother can't manage to define it coherently either. 

I would never expect higher-level thinking in terms of a topic and issue as complex as immigration because it goes against their simple-minded expectation that the world and all its problems are answered as some binary function. It is right or wrong. It is good or evil. There is no nuance or thought of impact. So long as people are allowed to homeschool in their country of origin, then they aren't worthy refugees. It is frustrating that they don't see or acknowledge the hypocrisy of it all. The failure to recognize the thousands who are facing similar and worse situations is what is disturbing. The blame game they are playing without a basic understanding of government function is driven by racism and fueled by ignorance. 

He is not the brightest. But also, legal words often have a very different meanings than the dictionary definitions because the meanings are determined by case law.

This issue comes up all the time in my work when people have predetermined ideas as to what “competency” and “sanity” mean without understanding that the definitions are very specific and narrow and nothing like what the dictionary says. We also have laws that use the word “and” in the statutes but case law has determined it really means “or.” My favorite are the laws around “risk” to public safety. The courts change the meaning of the word “risk” every year or so.

 

[Coconut Flan]

I bought my daughter one and both babies hated it.  The first one was only happy in his sleeper thing (not a bassinet) or in between both parents (only after his 5 AM feed or if he absolutely wouldn't sleep anywhere else) and the second child would only sleep in her bassinet.  She was a leave me alone and let me sleep type.  

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

I think they may also have bought into the myth that all you have to do to get your green card and a path to citizenship is marry a US citizen. The fact that there are a lot of additional procedures to prevent "abuse" was not recognized because of white Christian privilege.

 

My education on this was when a woman who was married to a citizen was getting her citizenship through whatever non-marriage way she was getting it. She told me it ended up being easier doing it that way! White savior hubris strikes again. They also probably assumed being White European would help them magically.  

[noseybutt]

17 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

My education on this was when a woman who was married to a citizen was getting her citizenship through whatever non-marriage way she was getting it. She told me it ended up being easier doing it that way! White savior hubris strikes again. They also probably assumed being White European would help them magically.  

I have a family member who obtained their green card independent of their spouse because they were already in process of applying before the relationship began. This same relative made the decision to never apply for citizenship because there was a false accusation of voter fraud—they have a very common name and somehow an accusation ended up in the immigration file even though this person is extremely apolitical and has never voted. They estimated it would be a minimum of $10k and numerous years to fight the accusation and, at the end of the day, they decided it wasn’t worth it since the family plans to move to the other country eventually. 

[käsekuchen]

@GreenBeans That confused me, too. A friend of mine's girlfriend is a citizen of a non-EU-country and they researched the hell out of whether to apply for German citizenship at all (cons of losing her old one vs. pros of gaining the German one) and when to do it (wait for the new legislation on multiple citizenship vs. taking the appointment at the Ausländerbehörde she had waited for for months). Granted we're jurists (sitting the German bar this week), but I thought that was somewhat normal even for "regular" people.

@noseybutt That's super interesting. I assumed that being undocumented due to their deferred status meant that there wasn't any negative impact on her application for a spousal visa. Still, I would have expected them to have talked to a lawyer and figured out what their situation was (eg likelihood of getting deported because the youngest German-born child had turned 18) and what the best way to handle their situation was. Surely, the meaning of the word "indefinite" would have come up? Knowing everything you wrote upthread - was what they did the best choice after all?

@Giraffe It's the same in Germany. Another friend of mine is married to a refugee and she said switiching to the marriage-route would acutally be more complicated than continuing the route he was on.

[lumpentheologie]

39 minutes ago, käsekuchen said:

It's the same in Germany. Another friend of mine is married to a refugee and she said switiching to the marriage-route would acutally be more complicated than continuing the route he was on.

I’m sure it’s different for refugees but getting my German permanent residency through marriage was shockingly easy. It certainly helps that I’m from the US (and light skinned) and I’m educated and speak German, but the difference from when I got residency on my own as a student was very stark. Then my documents were never sufficient, after every appointment I had to come back several times with additional things. The requirements would change arbitrarily depending on who you talked to. No one was ever helpful in any way. Also my German wasn’t as good then, and no one at the immigration office will speak to you in any language but German.

But marrying a German and bringing her to my appointment made all the doors magically open. They didn’t care about anything anymore. Didn’t ask about our finances once, and actually waived half the documents that were supposedly necessary. 

I’m waiting for the upcoming immigration reform to get citizenship, but I feel like that didn’t really require any research since giving up my US citizenship was never an option for me. Anyway, as a permanent resident married to a German citizen, you get most of the benefits of citizenship within Germany: the rights to health insurance, a place to live, welfare, and your pension are all the same. So there’s not much of a reason to seek citizenship. I only want to do it cause I don’t like being politically disenfranchised and cause I’d lose my permanent residency if I went back to the US for a year or more. With my parents getting older and potentially needing care, I’d like to keep that option open. 

From what I’ve heard it’s much harder in the US. For example, just not being able to leave the US for years while they process your green card application is a huge burden. Your parent gets sick or dies in your home country? Tough luck. I have no idea why they do that — Germany has no such requirement. There was also no kind of investigation into whether our marriage was “real” and that’s pretty common in the US. Also marriage to a citizen pretty much always gives you a path to legal status here, since families have a right to be together. Lydia may have been under the impression that was the case in the US too, but given the crap I’m sure they believe about “anchor babies,” I doubt it.  

Tl;dr - in my case marriage to a citizen ended the active hostility of the German immigration office. In the US I don’t think it would. 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, käsekuchen said:

 

@noseybutt That's super interesting. I assumed that being undocumented due to their deferred status meant that there wasn't any negative impact on her application for a spousal visa. Still, I would have expected them to have talked to a lawyer and figured out what their situation was (eg likelihood of getting deported because the youngest German-born child had turned 18) and what the best way to handle their situation was. Surely, the meaning of the word "indefinite" would have come up? Knowing everything you wrote upthread - was what they did the best choice after all?

My best guess is that there was no way to adjust her status without extreme risk. It was all a big catch-22.

For example, if she had met Trace will still in Germany and had never lived in the US, her coming to the US would have taken paperwork and time but would have been doable.

But because she is already in the US and part of an asylum case and on deferred action, returning to Germany would have fouled up the asylum and deferred action and possible created concerns about her being inadmissable. (Meaning she couldn't apply for status through her husband). Not returning to Germany meant a long drawn-out, complex legal battle that did not give off the ground before the deferred action was revoked.

This is where I do have empathy because US immigration law is a train wreck.

But, as I have said before, I have zero empathy that they think they are so special....

 

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

 

Tl;dr - in my case marriage to a citizen ended the active hostility of the German immigration office. In the US I don’t think it would. 

Dropping the US citizenship means no annual tax filings, yes? (Looking on the bright side...)

[Dandruff]

20 hours ago, marmalade said:

Trace is apparently a very angry ferret.

I watched the video and found him very obnoxious, along with his FIL.

They appear to not understand the meaning of the word "indefinite", though I would expect that an Internet search and/or discussions with lawyers should have cleared that up sometime within the past 15 years.

Uwe also repeatedly used the word "couldn't" vs "wouldn't" with regard to his non-cooperation with German authorities when they insisted that his children go to school.  Why?  He feels that it's his right as a Christian and as a parent to educate his children.  There was also mention of a change in his older children's personalities when they attended school, and he claimed Lydia was bullied (which I don't question), but I heard no mention of talking to the school about the bullying or trying to switch schools.

IMO, they're just pushing the persecution angle hard and hoping for a swell of viewer of support to help keep them in US.  I won't be surprised if they get it, but I think it would open the US up to a potential flood of others trying to do the same thing.  I hope they don't get an exception, especially if might cause someone trying to immigrate to the US due to, say, genuine life-or-death persecution to be further delayed as a result.

[Smoochie]

Clearly they expected, as did their sponsors, because the family is white, christian and homeschooling they should be allowed to arrive, bypass all the standard checks and balances, just be granted asylum and citizenship, rules be damned.

No hesitation in blaming Pres. Biden for 'deporting' them, either. Well, my question to them is, why didn't their real lord and saviour DJT and his government grant them the citizenship they desired? This was going on then. Why wasn't this taken care of during his 4 year term?

To that end, why didn't the GQP fix the immigration issues when they held all 3 branches during his term, just a few years ago. I mean it is their main talking point. Ah yes, now we come to the real reason it's never fixed, when they've had countless opportunities over many, many years.

It's a talking point for them to rile up and scare the base about the brown people, see fox and all the blaming of Pres. Biden and OMG the Dem's open borders! Now they're going to cry foul when someone who looks like them and would vote for them is caught up in the FUBAR that is US Immigration. They do NOT extend the same grace to others who face actual real danger and extremely poor living conditions.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Smoochie

[noseybutt]

34 minutes ago, Smoochie said:

Clearly they expected, as did their sponsors, because the family is white, christian and homeschooling they should be allowed to arrive, bypass all the standard checks and balances, just be granted asylum and citizenship, rules be damned.

No hesitation in blaming Pres. Biden for 'deporting' them, either. Well, my question to them is, why didn't their real lord and saviour DJT and his government grant them the citizenship they desired? This was going on then. Why wasn't this taken care of during his 4 year term?

To that end, why didn't the GQP fix the immigration issues when they held all 3 branches during his term, just a few years ago. I mean it is their main talking point. Ah yes, now we come to the real reason it's never fixed, when they've had countless opportunities over many, many years.

It's a talking point for them to rile up and scare the base about the brown people, see fox and all the blaming of Pres. Biden and OMG the Dem's open borders! Now they're going to cry foul when someone who looks like them and would vote for them is caught up in the FUBAR that is US Immigration. They do NOT extend the same grace to others who face actual real danger and extremely poor living conditions.

The dad implies that coming to the US was a last minute decision and not something they considered until approached by HSLDA. I wonder if they thought HSLDA was more powerful and respected than they really are?

[JDuggs]

5 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

The dad implies that coming to the US was a last minute decision and not something they considered until approached by HSLDA. I wonder if they thought HSLDA was more powerful and respected than they really are?

I interpreted that as they had no other options. This organization approached them to help and they jumped on it. It has worked for 15 years, so it hasn’t been a total loss for them.

If they didn’t have their two youngest that are still school aged, I wonder if their current supporters would still be upset about this. Now Mr. Romeike is saying that they want to stay forever, but it really makes sense that after the homeschooling period is over, they should go back. Their whole asylum reason wouldn’t exist anymore. What if they were given the compromise that they could stay for eight more years until the youngest finishes school, then they have to go back. They would still whine about it.

[noseybutt]

2 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

I interpreted that as they had no other options. This organization approached them to help and they jumped on it. It has worked for 15 years, so it hasn’t been a total loss for them.

If they didn’t have their two youngest that are still school aged, I wonder if their current supporters would still be upset about this. Now Mr. Romeike is saying that they want to stay forever, but it really makes sense that after the homeschooling period is over, they should go back. Their whole asylum reason wouldn’t exist anymore. What if they were given the compromise that they could stay for eight more years until the youngest finishes school, then they have to go back. They would still whine about it.

Legally it is a super strange argument. The whole premise of asylum is PERSECUTION that is presumed to be so intense that it won't simply go away. It's so very weird to say "I need asylum to because I am going to be persecuted for 15 years but after that I will be fine."

The mind boggles.

[JDuggs]

No one has mentioned if Zsu Anderson has weighed in on the Romeikes’ issue. Since it involves Germany, homeschooling and parental rights, she has to have opinions about it.

[noseybutt]

43 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

No one has mentioned if Zsu Anderson has weighed in on the Romeikes’ issue. Since it involves Germany, homeschooling and parental rights, she has to have opinions about it.

An opportunity to practice hospitality and bless another family!

😂