Dillards 41: Chocolate, Cheese, and Other Things More Interesting

[nausicaa]

13 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

It's my understanding that the WASP category is more about ethnicity than class, and was developed as a nativist counterpoint to the "white ethnics" (i.e. Irish, Italians, Jews of any background, Greeks, Russians) who were believed to be bringing down the "racial stock" in the 19th and early 20th century. 

Early on WASPs may have focused more on ethnicity, but today it is most definitely a class distinction (as well as still a racial/ethnic one). Even the nouveau riche are not considered WASPs. While Fundies share some of their nativist attitudes, no way would the Duggars qualify as WASPs, at least how it's used around my parts.

[Snarkle Motion]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I am not diagnosing Jill with anything. But as someone with an anxiety disorder, I 100% understand her fears, irrational as they may be. I check my apartment in my safe, boring, middle class neighbourhood in Canada every night for hidden murderers. I would have reacted just as strongly to the shower rack incident, and probably would've cried remembering it months later, too. I absolutely would not be able to function moving to a foreign country where I didn't speak the language or really understand the culture, in a crime-ridden area, even without a baby to worry about. I would have been on the plane home in about two seconds, headship be damned.

I 100% agree that Jill has an anxiety disorder that makes everything much more terrifying and hard to deal with than for the average outside observer (just my personal opinion, not officially diagnosing her). I also wouldn't be suprised if she has adult separation anxiety.

http://www.shakerclinic.com/anxiety/separation-anxiety/symptoms-effects

Separation anxiety disorder is a mental health condition that involves intense and excessive anxiety and fear of being separated from a loved one or ones. The distress experienced by people who are struggling with this disorder often causes a great deal of disruption in their lives and an overall decline in daily functioning. Examples of fears that trigger this form of anxiety can include:

The possibility of being separated from a loved one

Ongoing worry that a loved one may suddenly die

Panic that a loved one will get lost

Concern that a loved one will be kidnapped

Trepidation that a loved one will get hurt

Anxiety that a loved one will become ill

 

[AtlanticTug]

57 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I'm not at all suggesting that people with mental health struggles cannot or should not travel or live in other countries, dangerous areas, etc. Not at all. But as someone who is also an anxious, sensitive, and easily overwhelmed person, I understand Jill's struggle.

I developed anxiety and depression in my mid 30s when we experienced infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss. 6 miscarriages at various points, over $120K spent on 5 IVFs, etc. I was a total mess. It took a LOT of very expensive therapy with the right therapist and prescription drugs to get me back on the path to mental health. I did not have these issues growing up, and my diagnosis was something akin to situational anxiety/depression, not clinical or life-long. It is very possible that Jill wasn't anxious or insecure growing up. She may have been more emotional than, say, Jessa, but her personality seems to have radically changed after she had Israel. Even while she was pregnant with Israel, she seemed very happy and bubbly. Yes, she had lunch with her husband daily and was clingy but I don't think that is a sign of a mental health issue, it's more that she seems to be the sort of person who thrives on family company and she really did seem in love with Derrick. Unfortunately she didn't get to experience clinginess in high school like most of the rest of us, so I'm willing to give her a pass on that. But she had a very difficult birth with Israel which put in question her ability to have 20 kids, her recovery from her c section appeared to be really painful (remember those photos of them in church a few weeks after Israel's birth, she was clearly in discomfort) and her husband then whisked her off "overseas" to a strange place with a strange language and she was suddenly on her own with an infant who may have been high needs and absolutely no family or friends to help her. It is LONELY and isolating having a baby in the best of circumstances for those who live in our homes and whose partners are at work all day. Some days I was ready to tear my hair out. And I had the option of meeting a friend for lunch or going to the local mom/baby class or dropping my son off with my parents for an hour or two. Her anxieties clearly started to creep up and nobody was there to help her. Because you need to pray away your depression, according to her cruel and idiotic husband. So this girl never saw a doctor, never saw a therapist, never received the benefit of even short-acting drugs like Ativan for panic attacks. She simply wasn't going to get better, she had no chance. And you can bet that for somebody as anxious as her, even when she was at home visiting family she lived with the anxiety of knowing she'd have to go back to SCA. Derrick is a real piece of shit.

[louisa05]

On 9/19/2017 at 7:41 PM, Rachel333 said:

I actually think his beliefs probably haven't changed much, he's just more outspoken about them lately for some reason.

I know a lot of evangelicals who are less radical than the Duggars. And Derick's social media is about par for the course. I don't think there is anything dramatic going on, he is just proceeding on social media as many people in that belief system do. Enrolling in this "ministry" program has probably made him bolder. I wouldn't be surprised if his course encourages "students" to be more outspoken via social media about faith and culture war issues. It is all part of his "witness". 

[AlwaysExcited]

2 hours ago, Drala said:

 Does he really think mocking them will win them over?  

But he is not mocking them! He is providing intelligent, Bible based and logical commentary that he spent hours praying about. These kids just can't see it, because they want safe spaces and participation trophies. 

In his mind, of course.

[lomo6]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I am not diagnosing Jill with anything. But as someone with an anxiety disorder...

She definitely was experiencing pretty intense anxiety. Whether it was situational or longer-lasting is harder to tell. 

[cascarones]

18 hours ago, Georgiana said:

That's why I think he pings some alarm bells in people, because as clean as his image is, it does come off as being more calculated than genuine.  I don't dislike Jeremy, though he dislikes me and my religion.  But I don't trust the image he presents.  It's as real as reality TV.  

That got me thinking and since I'm already making a birthday slideshow for someone, I 'm digging through old facebook photos. Some Jeremy would have been in as well. They're gone, I wonder if he asked people to take them down before he started appearing in Counting On? Or if the friend's photos I'm looking at took them down for other reasons. It would make sense if Jeremy took steps to control his image before associating publicly with the Duggar brand, given it was at the river with all sorts of NIKE about. I don't remember their exact timeline, because TLC is confusing, but it looks like the domains for their sites were registered in May 2016 (so around courting?). 

[victoriasponge]

@bananabread I'm not sure how other people view it, but I see there as being two 'kinds' of pro-life out there. There's those that would love for there to be no abortion and would never have one themselves, would offer help to those who need it and work to prevent the need for abortion, but would ultimately probably never campaign to criminalise it. And then there's those who desperately try and criminalise it without putting any safety net down for the effect that would have on women and children. They're often also those who are anti-contraception (which I do personally think is a logically stupid position) and are essentially anti-sex rather than pro-life.

I definitely think it's entirely possible to be pro-life and also non-fundie, probably even fully secular, but that's a completely different attitude towards the debate (for the most part) than the fundie debate over abortion. It tends to be a lot more compassionate, empathetic and understanding, which aren't traits I'd offer the fundie movement.

Personally, I'm not sure I could have an abortion, but I'd consider myself pro-choice because I think it's up to other women to make up their own mids for themselves. I don't think that's too far off in opinion from those who are on the compassionate end of the pro-life side, and I could often agree with them, just not with the fundies.

[justoneoftwo]

I think being pro life without being anti birth control can be completely non religious.  I never understand people who think a fetus is a person but say "you do you." Its not a person then, or at least you don't really think so.  Thinking it should be illegal, even campaigning for it, is not necessarily linked to being religious.  

[Lurky]

29 minutes ago, victoriasponge said:

I definitely think it's entirely possible to be pro-life and also non-fundie, probably even fully secular, but that's a completely different attitude towards the debate (for the most part) than the fundie debate over abortion. It tends to be a lot more compassionate, empathetic and understanding, which aren't traits I'd offer the fundie movement.

Exactly this.  The Fundy ProLife belief is no birth control and no abortion, and in GF, being Joyfully Available at all times.  And the focus isn't on understanding the reasons behind abortion, and trying to tackle them so they're reduced, it's scream outside abortion clinics to try to scare and shame women into not getting abortions.

But they don't care about the women and definitely not the children.   They're not campaigning for maternity leave and free pre-natal and maternity care and  better child support, and definitely not better sex education.  They completely ignore the large portion of women who are married and working who have abortions, because they don't fit the Fundy narrative.  The only solution is "give the baby up for adoption", which they describe as really simple and easy, but they're not, I don't know, providing a fund to pay for the medical care for the birth mothers.

And when it comes to the really difficult cases, like women who become impregnated by rapists and especially the very young women, women who are in abusive or dangerous relationships, or women whose pregnancies are non-viable, their only solution is "pray more". 

As @victoriasponge says, the Fundy response to abortion is to criminalise.  The non-Fundy anti-abortion response is to look at the issues that make women feel their abortions are necessary, and try to fix them. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I 100% agree that Jill has an anxiety disorder that makes everything much more terrifying and hard to deal with than for the average outside observer (just my personal opinion, not officially diagnosing her). I also wouldn't be suprised if she has adult separation anxiety.

http://www.shakerclinic.com/anxiety/separation-anxiety/symptoms-effects

Separation anxiety disorder is a mental health condition that involves intense and excessive anxiety and fear of being separated from a loved one or ones.

True to my word I am here reminding you of your musings of yesterday.

Quote

None of us can truly know what their situation was like or why this happened. Most people are basing their views of these people on one TV show and a manual, even though this show is known to encourage sensationalizing and editing footage to fit the most compelling storyline. We don't have all the facts and never will.

[Snarkle Motion]

21 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

True to my word I am here reminding you of your musings of yesterday.

This was sort of my point. There are unwritten rules here that don't always make sense and will get you strong pushback including from mods. Topics like any sort of suggestion of mental health diagnosis, premarital sex, or comments about peoples bodies (including she looks pregnant) are not viewed as okay. And there may be a valid reason for this. 

Maybe it was inappropriate but I thought I was actually defending Jill. I think it's wrong to criticize her as overdramatic or immature for reacting to the shower rack or worrying excessively about murder/kidnap because I think she may have a reason and literally can't help it.

But you are right I should have taken more time to choose my words, it's an ongoing process.

However, I'm not sure this is equivalent to the negativity and cattiness toward a commenter claiming their close friend/family member was murdered. I guess I'm still having difficulty navigating and understanding the culture at times.

[12 Hungry Safety Pins]

I don't think we need to bring disorders into it. Fact is, Jill never spent any time alone. She was always surrounded by people. So she simply doesn't know how to be alone. She never learnt. So it's no wonder that she's terrible at it.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

43 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Topics like any sort of suggestion of mental health diagnosis, premarital sex, or comments about peoples bodies (including she looks pregnant) are not viewed as okay. And there may be a valid reason for this. 

You can bet that there is.

43 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Maybe it was inappropriate but I thought I was actually defending Jill. I think it's wrong to criticize her as overdramatic or immature for reacting to the shower rack or worrying excessively about murder/kidnap because I think she may have a reason and literally can't help it.

Yeah cos baseless labelling her with a mental illness so you can say "poor her she can't help herself" is so much better.

 

[singsingsing]

I just want to repeat what I said at the beginning of my post: I am not diagnosing Jill with anything. I have no idea whether she has an anxiety disorder, or any kind of disorder, and a person can certainly experience intense and debilitating anxiety at different points in their life without it being a disorder. People who do have anxiety disorders (or depression, or any other kind of mental health issue) can also often appear happy, relaxed and confident even when they're struggling, and they can also experience periods (sometimes very lengthy periods) of remission during which they really do function at a 'normal' or near-normal level.

I really dislike the idea that labeling someone with a mental illness is cruel or insulting. It's wrong, but it's not an insult. And there is a difference between labeling someone ('Jill definitely has an anxiety disorder') vs. speculating within the framework of discussing the damage caused by fundamentalism ('If Jill did have an anxiety disorder, fundamentalism might lead her to believe X and react like Y.') 

[Snarkle Motion]

22 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

You can bet that there is.

Yeah cos labelling her with a mental illness so you can say "poor her she can't help herself" is so much better.

Is that really what you think about mental health? That's a shame that there is still so much stigma attached. But my point was that there is an anxiety disorder, that was only recently officially recognized in adults, where the symptoms are literally gets increasingly anxious away from home/place of security, goes to extreme lengths to avoid being alone or away from significant attachment figure, worries excessively that attachment figures will be murdered, kidnapped, or other extreme situation. It's also known to have a significant impact on attachment figures as it they have trouble maintaining employment (person won't let them leave or they show up at workplace) and is an excessive strain on the relationship. Maybe I'm wrong or you disagree but I'd rather there be a medical explanation for these behaviors instead of being constantly labeled clingy, annoying, immature, spoiled, etc.

And you'll notice that I also speculated about Jacob's mental health. Because I think speculating his behaviors resulted from a psychotic break is better than assuming he killed his brother in cold blood.

My wording could have been better but I never meant Jill has an anxiety disorder with 100% certainty. Just that in my mind that seemed very highly likely given her behaviors over hours of footage we've seen. Without wanting to get doxed, I'm trained in the assessment and treatment of mental health, and I specialize in the anxiety disorder field and have actually written empirical papers about anxiety disorders. It's completely unethical for me to "diagnose" someone over the Internet. There are various other explanations or possible diagnoses (PTSD?). But can I suggest that someone is displaying all the telltale signs? Yes, I think discussing mental health issues raises awareness and reduces stigma.

My main point was that it's hard for me to see what people find distasteful or inappropriate and I sometimes need compassionate guidance or explanation. It confuses me. And though I've never been officially diagnosed I'm probably on the autism/asperger spectrum. Which I'm not ashamed of. I'd rather you think that than then she's just an asshole making trouble.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

10 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Is that really what you think about mental health? That's a shame that there is still so much stigma attached.

No dear. This is what you think about mental illnesses. It's you who can't understand the suffering and the complexities. Labelling Jill with a diagnosis (something you have no basis whatsoever to do) so you can say "poor her" is cruel, stupid and shows how you don't understand a fucking thing about mental illnesses.

ETA being diagnosed with a mental illness doesn't automatically deprive a person of her agency. This is just another of your many baseless assumptions.

[JillyO]

I strongly disagree that being personally opposed to abortion (as in "under no cirumstances would I ever have an abortion") constitutes being pro-life (or anti-choice, as I think it should should be more aptly named). Being pro-life in the sense it is commonly used means trying to legislate what (other) women can do with their own bodies. It means trying to criminalize (other) women's abortions. I know women who say that they would never have an abortion even if they were raped (I personally don't think you can really say that if it hasn't happened to you, but that's a topic for another day), but they still staunchly defend other women's right to choose. That's not being pro-life, that's being pro-choice. It's about each woman's individual right to choose, not about what you would choose for yourself.

[Carm_88]

Part of Jill's issue as well is that she never needed to think for herself. She just did what JB and M wanted her to do. She never learned how to think critically or have to think what life would be like as an adult. She was so used to being surrounded by people and being a favored child, that she thought it would be an easy transition. 

Guess what Derick is nothing like Daddy! Derick would like to be moving constantly, he wants to be away from the home, he doesn't seem to care that Jill might be scared and lonely. Jill is trying to be the perfect wife that Derick signed up for but she's not exactly what he wanted, I don't think. Either way, she's miserable and he's miserable. 

[Georgiana]

2 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I think being pro life without being anti birth control can be completely non religious.  I never understand people who think a fetus is a person but say "you do you." Its not a person then, or at least you don't really think so.  Thinking it should be illegal, even campaigning for it, is not necessarily linked to being religious.  

Except the only justification for considering a fetus a person IS essentially religious.  Science is pretty clear on conception and gestation being a (highly inefficient) process.  Scientifically, an early fetus is TISSUE that has the POTENTIAL to become a human, but is NOT CURRENTLY A HUMAN.  Scientifically, the fetus that was removed from my body is nearly identical to the tonsils that were removed from my body.  

If you believe a fetus is a person, you OUGHT to have a REASON.  Especially to try and legislate that belief.  And since science is out, it's almost exclusive that RELIGIOUS BELIEF is the root of that argument.  CAN you make a secular argument for a fetus as a person?  Asking honestly because I tried in college and was presented with so much contrary information and so little even tangential support for that position that I had to change my thesis.  

And if you DO NOT have support for your argument, then it should not be put into law, and you are just wrong if you try.  Your stance MUST be "You do you", because you have to admit that you may be wrong or that this is an unsupported personal belief.  I have LOTS of personal beliefs I don't try to legislate.  I hate tomatoes.  I don't like vodka.  I don't believe in democracy.  Largely personal preference, which is why I don't campaign for a ban on tomatoes in the US even though I GENUINELY believe they ruin everything they touch.  

[laPapessaGiovanna]

27 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

My wording could have been better but I never meant Jill has an anxiety disorder with 100% certainty.

It's not what you wrote above

4 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

100% agree that Jill has an anxiety disorder that makes everything much more terrifying and hard to deal with than for the average outside observer (just my personal opinion, not officially diagnosing her).

I don't even know why you bother with the disclaimer. You do it, own it.

30 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

My main point was that it's hard for me to see what people find distasteful or inappropriate and I sometimes need compassionate guidance or explanation. It confuses me. And though I've never been officially diagnosed I'm probably on the autism/asperger spectrum. Which I'm not ashamed of. I'd rather you think that than then she's just an asshole making trouble.

That I know of, ASD doesn't cause repentine changes of mind and acute backpedalling. I may be wrong.

[Coconut Flan]

40 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

My main point was that it's hard for me to see what people find distasteful or inappropriate

Knowing that about yourself, might I suggest then avoiding putting yourself in that situation over and over and over again

.

[Snarkle Motion]

1 minute ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

It's not what you wrote above

I don't even know why you bother with the disclaimer. You do it, own it.

That I know of, ASD doesn't cause repentine changes of mind and acute backpedalling. I may be wrong.

How is me "agreeing" with someone 100% the same as saying I am diagnosing her with an anxiety disorder? I was agreeing with @singsingsing and should have said "I completely agree with everything you said." I do strongly believe she has an anxiety disorder but wanted to clarify that this this is just my personal opinion. 

[Kleine Vampirin]

Derick, if not a WASP, surely a Wittering Arrogant Nincompoop Knob?

[Snarkle Motion]

22 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Knowing that about yourself, might I suggest then avoiding putting yourself in that situation over and over and over again

.

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And clearly I'm playing devils advocate at this point and ignoring your suggestion.

But I'm legit confused why speculating that someone experiences symptoms of anxiety, possibly an anxiety disorder diagnosis, is considered unacceptable but it entirely okay to speculate that a murder victim abused her kids based on one episode of TV. To the point that a person claiming to be a friend of the deceased is essentially branded a liar and trouble maker for questioning the possibility of abuse? I mean, psychological diagnosis includes behavioral observation. That doesnt mean you give a diagnosis based on footage from TV but I think it's in real same realm as saying I believe child abuse occurred based on what we saw on TV. I guess I'm not certain what makes this different? Except I think it's a lot less "damaging" to speculate someone may be experiencing mental health symptoms.