Trace and Lydia 4: Deportation Watch

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, Mrs Ms said:

Doesn’t he work in tree cutting or lawn care? 2 professions directly impacted by “fallage” 😄

He's moved on to construction. I think the tree service has gone the way of the dodo.

[Giraffe]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:49 PM, noseybutt said:

The dad implies that coming to the US was a last minute decision and not something they considered until approached by HSLDA. I wonder if they thought HSLDA was more powerful and respected than they really are?

It wouldn't surprise me. Back in the day (late 90's, early 2000's) I thought the HSLDA was basically the hero of the US homeschooling world. I could see someone from the HSLDA making it seem as though they basically owned the government when it came to homeschooling laws. (I am not giving the family a pass. I'm only saying the family probably erroneously assumed Michael Farris et al were the bees knees of homeschooling and would work their magic with Germany. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Destiny
remove accidental double post

[SoSoNosy]

I remember my daughter being frightened about truancy laws and being relieved that the HSLDA would save her from jail if needed.  This was when she was a beginning homeschooler; she wouldn't take her children out in public during school hours.  She gained confidence and really didn't mention them much as the years went on but they were a big part of the early homeschool years. 

 

[Kiki03910]

On 10/29/2023 at 7:17 PM, gobucks said:

Trace keeps calling foliage FALLAGE and it is making me crazy. For someone that lives somewhere that thousands of people travel to see the deciduous trees changing in the autumn, he really should know that. 

My previous boss always wanted to talk to me about the "verbage" in documents. She was very nice and I didn't dream of correcting her.

[just_ordinary]

I am happy and furious at the same time. Happy the we won’t get “blessed” with the crazy Christian homeschoolers here. But furious that they seem to wiggle their way through and don’t get a well deserved slap on the hand. 
I agree that they wouldn’t be screwed. They actually wouldn’t even need to finish their school diplomas. Ever since COVID the whole gastronomic/hotel sector is desperately searching for employees. They actually often pay well- especially if you are in the countryside where cost of living is cheaper. Same for trade. Learning the language, being able to bill and communicate correct in German would be important. But many trades are desperate for trainees and are happy to provide support in terms of language classes, and finding a place to live. Even more so as they are white westerners (sad reality). Thinking about it- with the parental benefits in place, Germany is probably a much better space to stay as long as you don’t have a child in school age (age 6/7). Trace could level up his skills- he would find a job quickly I suppose , Lydia be a baby making machine and they have around 5 years to get her US citizenship sorted. Going back they can homeschool AND he would be a skilled employee with a second language under his belt.

Ok….., let’s hope they don’t read here…..

[CarrotCake]

27 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I am happy and furious at the same time. Happy the we won’t get “blessed” with the crazy Christian homeschoolers here. But furious that they seem to wiggle their way through and don’t get a well deserved slap on the hand. 
I agree that they wouldn’t be screwed. They actually wouldn’t even need to finish their school diplomas. Ever since COVID the whole gastronomic/hotel sector is desperately searching for employees. They actually often pay well- especially if you are in the countryside where cost of living is cheaper. Same for trade. Learning the language, being able to bill and communicate correct in German would be important. But many trades are desperate for trainees and are happy to provide support in terms of language classes, and finding a place to live. Even more so as they are white westerners (sad reality). Thinking about it- with the parental benefits in place, Germany is probably a much better space to stay as long as you don’t have a child in school age (age 6/7). Trace could level up his skills- he would find a job quickly I suppose , Lydia be a baby making machine and they have around 5 years to get her US citizenship sorted. Going back they can homeschool AND he would be a skilled employee with a second language under his belt.

Ok….., let’s hope they don’t read here…..

It would also save a massive amount of hospital bills for all the births.

[just_ordinary]

I obviously meant it’s a good place as long as the children aren’t at school age in THEIR specific case. For every normal family, a child hitting school age wouldn’t be a problem at all. 

@CarrotCake exactly. I am not recommending to basically scam our social system and just skim the cream in trade for spouting crazy fundamentalism and then go back when the cream is gone, but I wonder why they didn’t think of this in her case. 
 

ah wait. I can answer my own question…..

Edited November 1, 2023 by just_ordinary

[lumpentheologie]

Honestly I just can’t see Trace learning German. I doubt he’s ever studied any foreign language, and learning another language as an adult is difficult even if you have some experience in that area. On top of that German is much harder for English speakers to learn than Spanish or French. From what we’ve seen of the Bates homeschooling Trace probably doesn’t really know how to study or push himself intellectually. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I’ll be shocked if he ever learns enough to function in German society. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by lumpentheologie

[Kiki03910]

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Honestly I just can’t see Trace learning German. I doubt he’s ever studied any foreign language, and learning another language as an adult is difficult even if you have some experience in that area. On top of that German is much harder for English speakers to learn than Spanish or French. From what we’ve seen of the Bates homeschooling Trace probably doesn’t really know how to study or push himself intellectually. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I’ll be shocked if he ever learns enough to function in German society. 

I'd be shocked if he ever learns enough English to function in the United States.

To be clear: I'm referring to the shitty Bateseseses homeschooling, NOT to dialect or accent. I detest that kind of snobbery.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Kiki03910
clarity

[CarrotCake]

10 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Honestly I just can’t see Trace learning German. I doubt he’s ever studied any foreign language, and learning another language as an adult is difficult even if you have some experience in that area. On top of that German is much harder for English speakers to learn than Spanish or French. From what we’ve seen of the Bates homeschooling Trace probably doesn’t really know how to study or push himself intellectually. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I’ll be shocked if he ever learns enough to function in German society. 

There are plenty of English-speaking jobs in Germany, unfortunately not in the conservative area. It would mean they have to find places where people are more friendly to immigrants...gross...

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

There are plenty of English-speaking jobs in Germany, unfortunately not in the conservative area. It would mean they have to find places where people are more friendly to immigrants...gross...

Absolutely. Also most English-speaking jobs require either more education than Trace has or a willingness to handle alcohol. And probably being respectful to gay people, etc. 

Also we’ve just seen no evidence that Trace is curious or enjoys learning — he’s had plenty of opportunities to pick up a few German phrases to use with his in-laws, which is a pretty normal thing to do as a gesture even if you’re never going to learn the language. Just learning “hello” “welcome” and “thank you” would show respect. Instead he just looks uncomfortable when they say anything in German. 

Lots of fundies are super entitled about demanding communication in English — after all, it’s God’s chosen language according to their beliefs about the KJV being a special revelation and the US being God’s favorite country. And those immigrants who don’t speak English are clearly criminals who hate America. Just hearing people speak another language fills a lot of US fundies and conservatives with fear and disgust. It’s a very different attitude than in Europe where it’s standard for kids to start foreign languages in elementary school. 

Trace doesn’t seem to have the work ethic to overcome these barriers. I bet Kelton could pick up enough German to support his family if he had to, but I don’t see it in Trace. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by lumpentheologie

[GuineaPigCourtship]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:56 AM, lumpentheologie said:

Just learning “hello” “welcome” and “thank you” would show respect.

I learned those when I was like 9 visiting cousins in Germany and have never forgotten them.  No particular point, but a fun memory of my cousin, a year younger than me, taking me around the house and teaching me vocabulary so I could come and live with her one day.

It's annoying as hell that this family is going to carry on thinking they're special because of this delay.

[Zebedee]

@GuineaPigCourtshipand it all goes well, learning that stuff. Until you end up in Germany, and everytime you use your German, they reply with something else, lol! Obviously, actually it is just polite to do so, and in larger towns etc it works fine, but I swear Germans have 15 ways just to say “hi” ( I do live in a small town, that is heavy on dialect, though). I have a slightly amusing story about this and my janitor.
 

When I first moved, I said “guten Tag”. He replied “Grüs Gott”, so next time I did. Then, he started saying “s’Gottle’. So that is what I said. Then, he went to “hallo”. Ok, that’s easy. But then he started saying “Hallole”. Which I drew the line at, lol. With a few instances of “Mahlzeit “ thrown in at appropriate times of day…. He is  very friendly and helpful, so I don’t thinkhe is taking the piss. But I swear, everytime I learn a new way of saying something simple here, they change it up….
 

I will say that they nearly always understand my terrible German first time, and the younger people often help me out in English if they don’t, but they still talk like that! Exceptions being the few middle/northern German transplants, who speak exactly like the language tapes, or even the local  news announcers. 
 

@lumpentheologieyeah, kids do start a foreign language early here. Except in the UK, where they may start two or three years earlier than I did, back in the day. But we (uk) fail at teaching it. At least when I was at school, we had the excuse that it was hard to get foreign media. I used to try and get French radio, it depended on the weather! I would have expected the language standards to be  much higher now, but they seem even worse. My nephew is first year of GCSE, with six years of German. He knows about as much as I did after one year at school. After which, I had to quit (not enough time, and French was compulsory). I guess that is what happens after years of devaluing foreign languages, sadly.

Whereas, I meet some German friends’ kids, who have one year of English, aged nine or so. They have been in school at least one year less than similarly aged UK kids, their English is almost as good as  my French was when I took GCSE (i.e. not great, but I had been doing it for five years, and got an A*…) Obviously, SOTDRT and “jesus spoke English, like us real Americans” etc plays a large role, but sadly, I think a lot of it comes down to the arrogance of speaking English. And assuming that anything worthwhile is said in English. Or someone “foreign” will translate it into English for you. Add the arrogance and USCentric notions, and that becomes 1000 times worse than even the average Brit. Add the “US speaks US English (except KJV) because God loves us most”, and it’s more like 10000 times worse.

 

[kittykay]

About 15 years ago or so my husband and I were lucky enough to self-tour through England and Scotland.  Had such a wonderful time on this trip of a lifetime for us.  All the folks we met were so friendly and helpful.  As we drove further North, it became more and more difficult to understand the accents.  We would stop for a coffee, and I finally figured out the clerk was asking if the coffees were "to go".  Every time, my husband would look at me, expecting me to translate what was being asked.  I wasn't any better than he was at figuring that out.  I could get most of the conversation through context.  But American English and British English are definitely different!  Loved every minute!

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@Zebedee there's no chance of me ever moving to Germany, so I'm *probably* safe from being exposed as a sham.  Annoyingly, I took Spanish for 10 years and I was too shy to speak any of it in Spain because I worried I would offend people with incorrect grammar/pronunciation.

[Smash!]

English is so much easier to learn for Germans than for example French because it‘s the same language family. 

I recently attended a congress and realized how bad my French really was despite the language being mandatory at school. 

[CarrotCake]

49 minutes ago, Smash! said:

English is so much easier to learn for Germans than for example French because it‘s the same language family. 

I recently attended a congress and realized how bad my French really was despite the language being mandatory at school. 

I agree, I am Dutch so also the same 'family' and just the fact that 90% of the word-order is the same between Dutch and English makes it so easy. If you literally translate each word you are already quite close.

[Smash!]

23 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

I agree, I am Dutch so also the same 'family' and just the fact that 90% of the word-order is the same between Dutch and English makes it so easy. If you literally translate each word you are already quite close.

Plus English got rid of all the different endings and articles! 

[Cupcake79]

Languages is one of my favorite topics. I live in Finland, but my mother tongue is Swedish, which is spoken by a minority here (a bit like in Quebec in Canada). I went to a Swedish school but learned Finnish from third grade, then English from fifth grade. In our equivalent to high school I also took German. Some took French and some didn’t choose a fourth language. Since Swedish is very close to both Norwegian and Danish I also understand written and spoken Norwegian and written Danish, but it’s hard to understand spoken Danish. I guess if I’d move to Denmark I would get the hang of it rather soon. Someone mentioned Dutch here. I don’t understand spoken Dutch, but I can get the main picture of a written article because it’s close to both English and German. At some point I took a Spanish class and today as I was watching a Netflix documentary about Ronaldo I noticed that I could pinpoint that he mostly spoke Portuguese, not Spanish, because I didn’t recognize any words. I might be a bit of a nerd, but I find it exciting. I also watch the Netflix series Fauda where Arabic and Hebrew is spoken and I absolutely cannot tell the difference. I sincerely hope Lydia starts to speak German to Ryker and that Trace bothers to learn a few basic words in German. 

[Seeking]

Cupcake79 - I so respect your language educational experience. How wonderful. I only wish the US educational system stressed the same. Honestly, I find the lack of emphasis on language in the US public school system quite embarrassing and limiting for us all. All of us -those of us who have been through and those who are in the midst of the educational system.

[medimus]

11 hours ago, Cupcake79 said:

Languages is one of my favorite topics. I live in Finland, but my mother tongue is Swedish, which is spoken by a minority here (a bit like in Quebec in Canada). I went to a Swedish school but learned Finnish from third grade, then English from fifth grade. In our equivalent to high school I also took German. Some took French and some didn’t choose a fourth language. Since Swedish is very close to both Norwegian and Danish I also understand written and spoken Norwegian and written Danish, but it’s hard to understand spoken Danish. I guess if I’d move to Denmark I would get the hang of it rather soon. Someone mentioned Dutch here. I don’t understand spoken Dutch, but I can get the main picture of a written article because it’s close to both English and German. At some point I took a Spanish class and today as I was watching a Netflix documentary about Ronaldo I noticed that I could pinpoint that he mostly spoke Portuguese, not Spanish, because I didn’t recognize any words. I might be a bit of a nerd, but I find it exciting. I also watch the Netflix series Fauda where Arabic and Hebrew is spoken and I absolutely cannot tell the difference. I sincerely hope Lydia starts to speak German to Ryker and that Trace bothers to learn a few basic words in German. 

That's interesting and quite cool. I did one of my university placements in Finland, but only learnt a few relevant words (medical glove size and exchanges for the bus/shop) becuase I was only in the country for a few weeks. Reading the Swedish on packaging is what saved me, as it is close enough to Dutch/english for things like ingredients (I'm vegan and needed to read all the packaging) and this was before I had a smartphone so couldn't google translate things on the go.

I grew up in Belgium which is an officially trilingual country, with some very strict language rules. Basically there are language borders and only one region is officially bilingual. Education in Flanders has to be in Dutch, legally (though I think they are loosening up on this a little, so that university degrees can be offered in English and immersion education can happen). My schooling was in Dutch, a language we didn't speak at home. I think it helps that free, universal 'preschool' that is part of the education system, takes place at the primary school and has the same daylength that starts at 2.5 helps (something like 96% of three year olds attend at 99.9% of 5 year olds). Because we lived close to the capital, there were always a lot of French speakers in my class somewhere between 50 and 75%. We started officially learning French in 3rd Grade, Latin and ancient Greek in 1st year of seondary (eq to grade 7), English in 2nd year and some took German from 3rd.

Just as an example of the strict language laws. On the train the announcements are made in the language(s) of the region the train is currently in. So there is a train that goes from the coast to the border with Germany. Initially you are in Flanders so the announcements are only in Dutch, then you go through Brussels and the announcements are in Dutch and French. Back in to Flanders, only Dutch, cross the border in to Wallonia and the announcements are only in French. For the last few stops you are in the German speaking Region, so announcements in German.

I think Luxemburg is interesting in that their children are educated through three languages, at different ages (Luxemburgish, Germand and French). 

My sister attends a European shool so will end up doing a lot of languages. They also teach some subjects through the second language and they mix kids from different language sections up in these classes to encourage use of the second language (a child in the English section, Dtuch section, Lithuanian section, Greek section who have most of their classes through that language, but share the second language of French will be in the same French language history class for example).

[mango_fandango]

At my secondary school, we all studied French at first (before GCSE), and then everyone picked either German or Spanish. I went with German. Languages were always my best subject at school and I did both French and German for my degree. My friend at university is from Bulgaria but went to an international school there, where the main language of teaching is English. She did her degree in German, Italian and Spanish, with Spanish as a beginner language (ie she started learning it at university). She’s also taught herself other languages for fun to varying degrees. I’d like to learn other languages too, just not sure what. Spanish is an obvious one, but Bulgarian would be fun to learn too, since my friend is Bulgarian and it’d be cool to message her in Bulgarian sometimes. Obviously I probably wouldn’t ever be fluent, but it’d still be cool.

[Cupcake79]

6 hours ago, Seeking said:

Cupcake79 - I so respect your language educational experience. How wonderful. I only wish the US educational system stressed the same. Honestly, I find the lack of emphasis on language in the US public school system quite embarrassing and limiting for us all. All of us -those of us who have been through and those who are in the midst of the educational system.

Thank you Seeking! In a way I understand that when English is your first language the need to learn other languages isn’t very big. When your first language is something else, especially if you live in a small country with other languages nearby, the need is a lot bigger. And since so much is in English today eg. films, websites, job opportunities it’s natural to learn English. My kids, especially my daughters age 10 and 13, are fluent in English thanks to YouTube. I was not at those ages. With that said I still think language skills should be appreciated a lot more in the English speaking countries. I get motivated to learn Spanish properly because it’s just so much fun hearing a foreign language and be the one who understands it.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Cupcake79

[CarrotCake]

In the Netherlands we start with English classes around the age of 10 but most kids already know some earlier because of tv. Most things are not dubbed and even for the shows that have two versions a lot of parents will show the English version to their kids (hooray for Netflix) to learn English young.

Then in highschool we get basic French and German and advanced English classes. You can usually choose to get more advanced French and German and some schools also offer Latin, Greek and/or Spanish.

I think even learning a second language young makes it so much easier to also learn more languages when you are older.

[Nothing if not critical]

I honestly think it's great that the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries don't usually dub shows in English - that's such a great motivation for the kids to learn English! Here in Germany, everything is dubbed, but I much prefer the original versions, because so much gets lost in translation.

Anyway, when my kids were about 11 or 12, they wanted to watch our "grown-up" shows with us, and because we were watching in English, they had to go along with it. Granted, they may have been a little young for some of the content in "How I Met Your Mother", but on the bright side, they're both fluent in English now, so I figured that balanced it out.