New DHS Probe

[VelociRapture]

I think you hit the nail directly on the head. I don't put much weight into the call, itself. So many hate the Duggars and it only takes ONE call for DHS or CPS to be required to investigate.

One call.

I really believe there was nothing DHS-required that was going on with any of the children (listen, Jim Bob may be the new tool in town, you know...JBIAT is the new DPIAT) BUT...even he is smart enough to know that NOW would be the WORST time for anything (even a truly innocent mishap) to happen to one of his children that could leave the Duggars vulnerable to suspicion or accusation.

So paranoia is now on board, surely as well as contempt for those who feel likewise toward the Duggars. JB knew his rights as a home educator, and he definitely knew the extent to which he could refuse a DHS worker at his door step. I actually don't blame them for disallowing the investigation if JB *knew* it was nothing more than an overzealous person who was determined to see the Duggars fall.

They've always been anti-government to some extent (except for the part where they will FILL a government role, a la senator, because it's to their own benefit; wouldn't blame them for that, except that I personally believe political involvement should be based on the desire to benefit ALL citizens, not just those who think like YOU.)

I mentioned this before, but I don't know if I can really blame them too much for not allowing the person in. It depends on the circumstances though:

- If the person presented clear identification and informed them why they were there in a way that doesn't allow for any confusion, then I see no valid reason why they would refuse to let the person see the minor in question.

- If the person did not present clear identification or inform them why they were there, then I don't think I blame them for denying access. If I were them, I would be on heightened alert for strangers attempting to enter the home at this time - if only because I'd be worried about the media gaining access through manipulative means or someone attempting to gain access to harm them in some way (whether physically or by selling information to the media).

It was a bad idea to deny access of course, but with the second scenario I could see why they might have done what they did.

[Palimpsest]

I'm with you, NoneandDone! Maybe it's because I am a CPS worker, but if an investigator showed up on my door, I'd let 'em in and show 'em where the kids sleep, the food in the fridge, tell 'em to take the kids in another room and chat, whatever. If I were really concerned after that visit about anything the worker said or did or the allegations that were disclosed, then I might make a few calls.

I agree that the wording the worker used in the 911 call seemed awkward when read, but listening to it, it didn't sound that way. It also sounded like they cut off the part where he gave the address. I seriously doubt he just said, "Duggar family home" for the address with no clarification. I think he stated "Duggar family home" to make it clear the site is a residence, and then proceeded to give the address, which Today (appropriately) cut off. It sounded to me like it was not his first time making a call like that.

I can't help but wonder about the nature of the report and what went down after the police were called (did they give access to the kid? what reason did they give for refusing access to DHS? etc.). I hope all the kids are safe. I imagine there's enough upheaval in their lives at the moment with all the drama and fallout from the molestation revelations and publicity.

Yes, all of this. I'll add that I thought the caseworker was picking his words very carefully on the 911 call because he knew very well that the media are doing FOIA requests on everything Duggar they can at the moment. That added to the apparent awkwardness of the call.

I have to go out in a few minutes, but it would be great if people with first hand knowledge of how CPS/APS works could post more about it. I mean in general terms: how a report is taken, how reports are triaged and prioritized, who is interviewed in the investigation, what sort of services, and so on. There is a lot of misinformation around and HSLDA has done a fantastic job of creating paranoia in the Fundie dominated homeschooling world.

I'll also say that, as with any profession, there are some bad/inefficient/nasty people in Protective Services. However, the vast majority of caseworkers do that thankless and underpaid job because they really do care about children and vulnerable adults. Also, most of them are very good at what they do.

[halcionne]

I mentioned this before, but I don't know if I can really blame them too much for not allowing the person in. It depends on the circumstances though:

- If the person presented clear identification and informed them why they were there in a way that doesn't allow for any confusion, then I see no valid reason why they would refuse to let the person see the minor in question.

- If the person did not present clear identification or inform them why they were there, then I don't think I blame them for denying access. If I were them, I would be on heightened alert for strangers attempting to enter the home at this time - if only because I'd be worried about the media gaining access through manipulative means or someone attempting to gain access to harm them in some way (whether physically or by selling information to the media).

It was a bad idea to deny access of course, but with the second scenario I could see why they might have done what they did.

I agree with this. Don't they have a gated driveway? So, is there an intercom or something? It might be difficult to verify the legitimacy of a DHS worker who's 200 yards away. For the record, I made that figure up and have no idea how far away the gate is, except that it is, indeed, far away from the front door. :lol:

[IReallyAmHopewell]

This is quite interesting. There must be some merit to the complaint that someone has seen firsthand for DHS to go out there. However, the Duggars must either be really dumb to not let the DHS worker see the child.

I wonder if the Duggars knew that DHS info cannot be leaked to the public. The didn't think that a police presence at a DHS call would be made public.

So much for "The DHS said that we were such great parents after the probe of our son molesting our daughters"

I"m guessing they wanted their lawyer involved. DHS has to investigate any claim I believe.....

[blessalessi]

I am not surprised that the Duggars would have refused access to ANYONE in the middle of all this media furore. I don't give them a pass for very much at all of their parenting behaviour, and I think they brought the whole media backlash on themselves but, under the circumstances, I could imagine anyone might panic if a CPS worker called right in the middle of a shitstorm like this one.

FTR, I am not vaguely anti-police or anti-CPS; I just think people generally are prone to react in stupid ways when under immense pressure, and the Duggar parents were not the sharpest knives in the drawer before the shit hit the fan last month. :doh:

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I was going to start a new post for this, but (understandably) with the recent posting frenzy, I don't see that I can on the Duggar boards. Anyways, I looked at their (public) FB page last night, and was surprised that there were very few critical comments since they are being skewered everywhere else. I posted a non-ranty reply on the pic of Michelle and Jana, saying that their interviews were in complete dispute with what they, themselves had stated in the police documents, so whether or not you thought Josh was "forgiven," it was clear that they were outright lying in recent statements (with a link to the report). I got a bunch of likes immediately, and there were several comments immediately after mine. I also tried to stave off the "bullying" and "troll" accusations by saying that, whether you are a fan or not, normalizing molestation and incest and giving inflated statistics of in-family abuse was detrimental to victims of abuse.

Well, guess what? This morning, I am blocked, my comment is gone, and, in fact, ALL negative comments are gone from the entire page. So, if it looks like people are starting to forgive them - it's not true. They're just blocking and deleting, like every other pathetic reality tv celebutante page.

[GiggleOfGirls]

I was going to start a new post for this, but (understandably) with the recent posting frenzy, I don't see that I can on the Duggar boards. Anyways, I looked at their (public) FB page last night, and was surprised that there were very few critical comments since they are being skewered everywhere else. I posted a non-ranty reply on the pic of Michelle and Jana, saying that their interviews were in complete dispute with what they, themselves had stated in the police documents, so whether or not you thought Josh was "forgiven," it was clear that they were outright lying in recent statements (with a link to the report). I got a bunch of likes immediately, and there were several comments immediately after mine. I also tried to stave off the "bullying" and "troll" accusations by saying that, whether you are a fan or not, normalizing molestation and incest and giving inflated statistics of in-family abuse was detrimental to victims of abuse.

Well, guess what? This morning, I am blocked, my comment is gone, and, in fact, ALL negative comments are gone from the entire page. So, if it looks like people are starting to forgive them - it's not true. They're just blocking and deleting, like every other pathetic reality tv celebutante page.

Unsurprising, unfortunately, but good to know! Are there any pages where folks who've been banned from the Duggar page can go and post what got them banned? That would be fun for someone who has more time than I do to set up.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

If I see one, I'll share it, Giggle! I don't mean to sound petty about being banned - if all this hadn't come to light, I wouldn't care. In fact, I wouldn't have bothered posting at all. I just find it reprehensible that those frauds are willing to throw every single molested/sexually abused child in their cult under the bus (by saying things like "this happens all the time") in order to save their own skin. And, further, I want other FJers to take heart and know that support for this vile family isn't growing.

[December]

I was going to start a new post for this, but (understandably) with the recent posting frenzy, I don't see that I can on the Duggar boards. Anyways, I looked at their (public) FB page last night, and was surprised that there were very few critical comments since they are being skewered everywhere else. I posted a non-ranty reply on the pic of Michelle and Jana, saying that their interviews were in complete dispute with what they, themselves had stated in the police documents, so whether or not you thought Josh was "forgiven," it was clear that they were outright lying in recent statements (with a link to the report). I got a bunch of likes immediately, and there were several comments immediately after mine. I also tried to stave off the "bullying" and "troll" accusations by saying that, whether you are a fan or not, normalizing molestation and incest and giving inflated statistics of in-family abuse was detrimental to victims of abuse.

Well, guess what? This morning, I am blocked, my comment is gone, and, in fact, ALL negative comments are gone from the entire page. So, if it looks like people are starting to forgive them - it's not true. They're just blocking and deleting, like every other pathetic reality tv celebutante page.

Hardly a surprise! I'm sure they have someone from TLC or whatever policing the page even more heavily than usual these days.

Didn't you know that if you put your hands over your ears and shout "LA LA LA LA" loud enough, it never happened?

[snarkykitty]

I was also thinking the DHS worker sounded pretty unsure of himself. I believe he may have been a Trainee. Often in my state they will send a Trainee with another Case Worker. I can see the senior Worker telling the Trainee to go to the car and call for backup.

One Case Worker generally responds to calls here. If they need backup, they call the police if needed. They can take the police with them in one of the following scenarios: domestic violence, rural area without cell service, or fear for their safety. There have been some CPS Workers suspended locally recently for taking police on a call with them without just cause.

(Bolding mine)

Is that really a thing? I find it crazy that (multiple) social workers have been punished for requesting police backup.

Aside from times when it's protocol to have police escort, there is usually policy that allows the social worker to use his/her discretion as to whether or not they feel they need such assistance. As in those cases, it's a judgment call, it's really odd that it's so prevalent that several social workers were found abusing policy within a particular geograhic area that is publicly known.

[Mama Mia]

Yes, all of this. I'll add that I thought the caseworker was picking his words very carefully on the 911 call because he knew very well that the media are doing FOIA requests on everything Duggar they can at the moment. That added to the apparent awkwardness of the call.

I have to go out in a few minutes, but it would be great if people with first hand knowledge of how CPS/APS works could post more about it. I mean in general terms: how a report is taken, how reports are triaged and prioritized, who is interviewed in the investigation, what sort of services, and so on. There is a lot of misinformation around and HSLDA has done a fantastic job of creating paranoia in the Fundie dominated homeschooling world.

I'll also say that, as with any profession, there are some bad/inefficient/nasty people in Protective Services. However, the vast majority of caseworkers do that thankless and underpaid job because they really do care about children and vulnerable adults. Also, most of them are very good at what they do.

I think we'd really need to hear from someone with knowledge specifically of not only that States, but that particular County's CPS procedures. Because it really varies hugely by area. Not just due to local laws and department size and admin structure -- Even things like prioritization can vary a great deal depending on little things like having a particular grant driven program that gives specific services to a target population ( children under 5, first time- parents, meth users, etc. )

The call sounded weird, to me, because for that size of a county I can't imagine they wouldn't frequently have uncooperative parents and have a set arrangement for police accompianment. And the tone of the call sounded like they were a first time caller. Of course they might have just been flustered because of the potential media attention.

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Duggar's haven't been dealing with multiple people trying to get in the gate saying they were CPS, or delivery or a minister or who knows what all - and wouldn't be very leery of anyone being who they said they were. Even a business card or badge -- these days absolutely anyone could go online, look up the name of a local Social Worker, find an image of their county symbols and make a realistic identification card in under 15 minutes. Get inside and soon have an " exclusive" scoop!

If I were them , personally, I would probably insist on the police just to be sure they were who they said they were! Although then they'd have all the reports of cops at their door.

[FloraKitty35]

I"m guessing they wanted their lawyer involved. DHS has to investigate any claim I believe.....

The Duggars hubris is astounding, as we have watched time and time and time again.

[LilahBelle]

The thing is that people have likely been calling DHS on the Duggars as long as they've had a show. I really doubt DHS is going to move on anything unless there's a very believable evidence or claims. Some random "do gooder" or "person who wants to see them burn" isn't going to have the information to make this a believable case; they're just going to say things that sound like rumors.

That's a good point - but you can still call DHS with a bogus claim and make it sound believable.

[goldfishgoddess]

If the Duggars want to adopt kids from overseas, this will not be good for them. The Smuggar stuff as well as any other history from DHS would be in the mix unless they find some foreign fundie charity that is sympathetic to their lifestyle. Countries like China also want the age of both parents added together to be less than 100 in order to give the child a decent amount of time with living parents.

I also think any orphaned baby would do better with a smaller family so it can have more bonding time with parents. Coming to the Duggar home would be just like any other high volume child facility, where personal attention would be at a minimum.

If you look at the Kleins (The Little Couple on TLC), they personify adoption excellence. Jen is a little OCD but she's definitely got her heart in the right place and does anything to help her kids adjust from their overseas adoptions. And I think it's brilliant the Kleins adopted two children with achondroplasia.

[JenniferJuniper]

If the Duggars want to adopt kids from overseas, this will not be good for them. The Smuggar stuff as well as any other history from DHS would be in the mix unless they find some foreign fundie charity that is sympathetic to their lifestyle. Countries like China also want the age of both parents added together to be less than 100 in order to give the child a decent amount of time with living parents.

I also think any orphaned baby would do better with a smaller family so it can have more bonding time with parents. Coming to the Duggar home would be just like any other high volume child facility, where personal attention would be at a minimum.

Call me a cynical beeatch, but the Duggars only talked about adopting for the possibility of developing more story lines if needed. They have more kids than they can manage as it is (recent events have proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt) and still have four daughters under the age of 10. No show = no interest in little foreign kids.

[December]

If you look at the Kleins (The Little Couple on TLC), they personify adoption excellence. Jen is a little OCD but she's definitely got her heart in the right place and does anything to help her kids adjust from their overseas adoptions. And I think it's brilliant the Kleins adopted two children with achondroplasia.

Isn't Jen a doctor, too? I've never actually caught more than a few minutes of that show. But probably actual education + exposure to the outside world = much better environment for adoption than the Duggars.

You also have to wonder, since the Duggars demonize even premarital handholding, how they'd potentially consider a child born out of wedlock. I mean of course they'd have to praise the fact the child was not aborted, but I wonder what they'd really feel about welcoming into their family a baby conceived "in sin" or whatever they'd call it.

[laundry]

Now InTouch has an article with an email written by the police chief saying the Duggars slandered her.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/exclusive-arkansas-police-chief-the-duggars-slandered-me-60649

The email was obtained via another FOIA request (I didn't know they could request emails too.) I wonder if this case, in addition to the new DHS investigation, is what InTouch regards as "some pretty significant stuff."

ETA: I see I posted this in the wrong thread, but I can't delete it so I leave it be.

[goldfishgoddess]

Wow, In Touch is really going "whole hog" after the Duggars. It must really piss off People magazine, who have been paying them all this time for info.

It's only right the police chief should defend herself and point out that the release was lawful. All the Christian conspiracy stuff should be laid to rest as well. All this goes to show the Duggars are all Jesus, sweetness and light until they need to sling shit to hide the skeletons in their closets.

[justoneoftwo]

Isn't Jen a doctor, too? I've never actually caught more than a few minutes of that show. But probably actual education + exposure to the outside world = much better environment for adoption than the Duggars.

You also have to wonder, since the Duggars demonize even premarital handholding, how they'd potentially consider a child born out of wedlock. I mean of course they'd have to praise the fact the child was not aborted, but I wonder what they'd really feel about welcoming into their family a baby conceived "in sin" or whatever they'd call it.

Don't forget the "sins of the father" issues with Gothard. My understanding is that he believes that mothers have no impact on the children and that some men descend from Adam, and some from the snake/Devil. So if the father of the child is evil, the child will be evil (the mother doesn't matter). Basically this is why the people in his cult don't adopt much, because you won't know what sins your kid will have on them.

(Source, Pathos nolongerquivering, I don't remember which article exactly)

[Seven Severn]

Have any of the family who are full-time residents of the TTH left the house since this all went down?

What sorts of visitors -- people who could leave when they pleased -- been to the house?

If the call came from someone inside the house it would pretty much have to be someone who lived there full time.

If none of the minor children have been visible to the public since this hit then the call would've had to come from someone who had been to the house between May 21 and 27 and witnessed something during that time period that warranted a call (assuming the call was legit). So, who's been there? Lawyers, absolutely. Discovery Communications (or whatever it's called) reps? Trusted friends?

What I'm trying (poorly) to get at is that only a limited number of people have seen the kids since this all went down so the call had to have come from one of them, right?

I apologize for any duplication of thought; I'm just trying to get the logistics of the phone call straight in my own head.

[JustJuls]

How would In Touch even know to get a FOIA for that email? As well as the for the 911 call. It seems like they have an "in" to the police dept. or something.

Regarding the rules: I was one of the people who was speculating which kid the DHS investigation was about. About 6 different posters jumped in and called it out. I'm all for abiding by rules, but it just seemed like over kill. And this is my first post since....it definitely made me reluctant to post again. :)

[justoneoftwo]

How would In Touch even know to get a FOIA for that email? As well as the for the 911 call. It seems like they have an "in" to the police dept. or something.

Regarding the rules: I was one of the people who was speculating which kid the DHS investigation was about. About 6 different posters jumped in and called it out. I'm all for abiding by rules, but it just seemed like over kill. And this is my first post since....it definitely made me reluctant to post again. :)

I'm sorry but what email? I must have missed this, can someone please catch me up?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The Duggars only talked about adoption because they knew it was good press to say they were open to the idea. Jessa and Ben seem to actually be interested (if it's to be believed that they did speak to a social worker about it), but that's very different than "we are praying about it and open to the idea if God tells us that's what he wants from us."

[JustJuls]

I'm sorry but what email? I must have missed this, can someone please catch me up?

This one: http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/excl ... d-me-60649

It was posted above :)

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

How would In Touch even know to get a FOIA for that email? As well as the for the 911 call. It seems like they have an "in" to the police dept. or something.

Regarding the rules: I was one of the people who was speculating which kid the DHS investigation was about. About 6 different posters jumped in and called it out. I'm all for abiding by rules, but it just seemed like over kill. And this is my first post since....it definitely made me reluctant to post again. :)

I don't know how the whole FOIA works, but maybe they just put out a request for anything Duggar related?