New DHS Probe

[SassyPants]

As the parent, I would have hauled my ass out to the gate and requested a business card and ID from said worker, made a few calls and secured the appropriate arrangements to have my child interviewed off site.

Man up and follow through; be proactive and responsible for a change.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I am trying to imagine JB calmly and willingly answering deeply personal questions that were not scripted or vetted before hand. He has always had so much power to control his interactions with people that I imagine he does not deal well with challenges to his authority.

[SassyPants]

I am trying to imagine JB calmly and willingly answering deeply personal questions that were not scripted or vetted before hand. He has always had so much power to control his interactions with people that I imagine he does not deal well with challenges to his authority.

All you have to do is look at the end of the interview with MK. Both he and Michelle went low, talking of agendas and bribes and what not.

His professional advisor either did a crappy job or neither JB nor M were able to pull off the "keeping sweet." Unfortunately, they come off looking like ignorant doofuses.

His nostrils would be flaring while the veins on the side his neck bulged.

[Mama Mia]

I worked for Child Services in a large county. Here is what usually happens.. they are able to go see the kid at school out of the family circumstance so that the child doesn't feel pressured. Also interviews are set up by phone with parents and siblings who can give information, usually in a home setting. In many homes, the parents are not home during the day.

The fact DHS just showed up without calling, and then possibly a police escort to gain access to the child.... Whew! Part of it might be due to the fact the kids don't go to school so they are not accessible to DHS like most kids are. But the fact there was no phone call appointment first leads me to think it must be a serious accusation?

If TLC was thinking of doing some kind of patched up show with the family, or a spin off, this has to be the final straw. If even one parent was home, he or she should have given access to the child and put an end to the inquiry. If neither parent was home, then they should have been called back while DHS was waiting. It sounds to me like a parent was home and denied access, without any willingness to reschedule. If the concern was serious enough then I could see why they'd call the police for escort.

It's not fun when DHS comes knocking, but what most people do is cooperate and provide information to address concerns so the accusation can be dismissed. Not giving access makes them seem guilty of something, which is a bad idea right now!

I guess things are different everywhere -- but I wouldn't see an immediate, unannounced, CPS visit as that unusual . It means there is a more immediate concern - but that could cover a really wide range of things -- really anything where waiting 10 days ( that's the standard here) means the situation could worsen or evidence would be gone : domestic violence, punishment leaving bruises, a toddler who wandered off, a currently under the influence parent seen taking care of a young child, lots of stuff.

And here, at least, there are always a pretty fair percentage of parents who aren't going to respond well to CPS on their doorstep, so police escort is completely normal.

And I looked up their county -- it's Washington County, right? There's 200,000 people there -- so not so small that frequent police accompaniment wouldn't be required. And I imagine they'd have to have at least 15-20 social workers , bare minimum, right?

I don't know just sounded weird given the circumstances. I'm not at all surprised they went out though. I' would imagine they've received dozens, if not hundreds, of frantic calls telling them they should investigate since the story broke. I would bet at least a few of them sound convincing enough that they feel they need to go out.

[goldfishgoddess]

The DHS workers would have arrived with badges and all the appropriate ID. It's just that whoever was in the house was not expecting them, and that means they had no chance to prep the child in question and figure out what the child should say.

Remember, everything has to be on "Duggar Time."

[polecat]

It's funny because this sounds like very reasonable behaviour in these circumstances and yet, seeing the video of the Nauglers doing just this, they come across as batshit crazy.

And I agree with the poster (VelociRapture, maybe?) upthread. In their present situation if I were the Duggars, I would be quite concerned that this person was attempting to get information and/or photos for the media. I would imagine they are distrustful of everyone right now.

Well, that's because the Nauglers ARE batshit crazy. ;)

[halcionne]

I guess things are different everywhere -- but I wouldn't see an immediate, unannounced, CPS visit as that unusual . It means there is a more immediate concern - but that could cover a really wide range of things -- really anything where waiting 10 days ( that's the standard here) means the situation could worsen or evidence would be gone : domestic violence, punishment leaving bruises, a toddler who wandered off, a currently under the influence parent seen taking care of a young child, lots of stuff.

And here, at least, there are always a pretty fair percentage of parents who aren't going to respond well to CPS on their doorstep, so police escort is completely normal.

And I looked up their county -- it's Washington County, right? There's 200,000 people there -- so not so small that frequent police accompaniment wouldn't be required. And I imagine they'd have to have at least 15-20 social workers , bare minimum, right?

I don't know just sounded weird given the circumstances. I'm not at all surprised they went out though. I' would imagine they've received dozens, if not hundreds, of frantic calls telling them they should investigate since the story broke. I would bet at least a few of them sound convincing enough that they feel they need to go out.

I'm wondering if Tontitown is big enough to have a PD or if they rely on the sheriff for services. Not that it matters here.

[Evenkeel]

Well, that's because the Nauglers ARE batshit crazy. ;)

Good, so I'm not the only one who thinks it would be a little off to would categorically refuse to produce the child. I hope that isn't what happened because it would be a huge red flag.

[TeaELSee]

I apologize, I missed the do not speculate request.

[goldfishgoddess]

Think about it. They have received a report that a child might be in danger. So DHS' responsibility is to make sure that child is not being (hurt) (molested) (not fed) (beaten) (insert the phone report claim).

It's not a matter for calling your lawyer. You have to show that the kid is okay. Like someone said, bring them out on the porch and let the DHS people talk to your kid. If you have nothing to hide, what is the problem? If police got a call that a kid was being hurt, they would have to show up, knock the door, and check that the child was okay too.

So disgraceful that the Duggars seem to feel laws are okay for other families but theirs.

[LilahBelle]

I agree with the poster who said that this is now the nail in the coffin for the TV show, no matter what they were investigating and no matter whether the initial report to DHS was legitimate. We may never know what it was about but the sponsors are going to assume the worst, IMO.

[SassyPants]

I agree with the poster who said that this is now the nail in the coffin for the TV show, no matter what they were investigating and no matter whether the initial report to DHS was legitimate. We may never know what it was about but the sponsors are going to assume the worst, IMO.

Ultimately, I do not think anything could have saved the show because the entire premise of the show was based on a falsehood. Refusing to talk beyond asking for privacy and prayers likely would have come across as phony, and the route they took was obviously a total failure.

[instantkarma]

I've done CPS work in two states: PA and IL. When a call would come in and I'd get sent to check on the child who was the subject of the call, if there were more than just that one child at the house, it was my responsibility to determine the welfare of all the children in the home, not just the one called on.

I work hand in hand with CPS. It seems to me that the tip was made on one specific child, as they only asked to see one the child. That also leads me to believe that whomever gave the tip failed to mention that there were multiple children in the home. CPS must act solely on the tip, so even if they knew there are 19KAC they could not infer this if the caller did not state it.

The fact that the CPS Worker asked to "lay eyes" on/see the child would probably mean that the tip was related to some type of abuse or neglect that one could see physical signs of. If it was something like not enough food or unfit living conditions, they would have asked to do a walk through of the home. For emotional or other types of abuse/neglect, they would have asked to talk with the child in private or called the parents to bring the child to a Child Safety/Advocacy Center to be interviewed since it couldn't be done at school per usual procedure due to SOTDRT.

[Cleopatra7]

This clip from the Today show plays part of the 911 call. It sounds like it's from the social worker who went to investigate:

http://www.today.com/video/911-was-call ... 2164035615

I guess this means that another call must have tipped them off. :think:

[instantkarma]

I probably also need to add that if that one specific child checked out ok, CPS would have no need to investigate further. UNLESS, they 1) open a referral because they substantiated the allegation on the one child or 2) they noticed something else of concern while at the home checking on that child. For example, they could investigate the welfare of all the kids if they went to the home and the child in question had a black eye and/or 3 other children running around the house did also.

[twinmama]

Yea, it's the combination of calling 911 , and the wording that is just off to me . I iagree that generally they would call a direct line. Or, even more likely, be accompanied by police in the first place, but maybe that varies by area. Also the " and I guess they're not being cooperative" just sounds --- stilted? Unsure? I don't know, I can't really place my finger on it. It just sounds more like how someone would call in a report if they had never been in that circumstance before -- but it would be a very, very common situation in daily life for a Social Worker. I can't imagine they would send some rookie out -- maybe because it's so high profile they sent some higher ranking administrator without much field experience? Sorry, I'll stop now. Just weird.

Different group of people they are protecting, but I have a relative that worked in adult protection (making the same kind of check in calls but with senior citizens). I feel like the "I guess they're not..." is something someone on their first day of work would say. My relative certainly knew exactly how to handle every situation that could have come up after working in that field for years and years. 911 is for emergencies, not "these people aren't complying with my search" unless they thought someone was like being abused at that moment.

[mamallama]

Yes the 911 call was from the social worker. The call reporting possible abuse or neglect would have gone to or been directed to the Child Abuse Hotline. That call would be private.

[twinmama]

I am not so sure I'd allow a cps worker in my house, but I absolutely would bring my child/ren to the front porch and let them have a chat with the worker if need be. I've nothing to hide, but I also have no desire to fling open the doors on my privacy and let people rifle through the minutiae of my life/my family's lives. But sure, talk to my kids -- you'll see they're happy, well-adjusted and confident. If you really, truly believe you need to see how we live in our private home even after seeing my kids are okay, feel free to get a warrant.

Same. I don't do anything to or with my kids that any reasonable CPS worker would not understand. I yell at them from time to time (yeah, everyday, who am I kidding), they do timeouts and get stuff taken away when they're misbehaving. They can tell the cops and CPS all the stuff that happens, I am sure everyone will understand it. I don't hit them, I don't threaten them, I don't abuse them in any way. If the kids don't lie (they are 3, they don't lie yet thankfully!!!), nothing is going to come of it. But if I was hitting them with spoons to keep them on blankets, or locking them in closets to pray when they misbehave, or letting their brother abuse them repeatedly, then I might be weary about the kids talking to CPS.

Plus, my kids' safety is super important to me. If all CPS wanted to do was see my child to know that they are okay, that is fine by me. I would be rolling my eyes knowing nothing was wrong with my kid (in my situation, no idea about the Duggars), but I would let them see my perfectly happy, healthy kid. Like everyone seems to be saying, if they wanted interviews and inspections and stuff, they can get a warrant and I'd talk to a lawyer, but just seeing the child at the moment of their arrival would be fine with me.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

You know, I would never allow a cop in my house without a warrant (unless I was calling about a crime in progress or something), but I would let CPS in for sure. Maybe it is the area that I live in (plus the fact that I have had to make reports in my line of work), but your child has to be in specific, imminent danger before they remove him or her. Like, they have extensive bruising, there is a police report documenting domestic violence in the home in front of the child (and the perpetrator is still residing there), etc. Home schooling, medical neglect, even unsubstantiated (but true) sexual abuse - nope, not going to remove them without a hearing. So your best bet is to cooperate, and NOT to force them to bring a police officer with them (because by that point, you are faced with a warrant and the police can search your home as well).

CPS does NOT need a parent present to interview with the child. IN FACT, they will separate parent and child. You cannot sit in with your kid when CPS talks to them. They do not need the parent or guardian's permission to talk to a child - they can do it at school, at the doctor's, at their therapist's office (this has actually happened at my workplace). Yes, the parents will be notified afterwards, but they are not necessarily told in advance. It is a COURTESY if they visit at the home, without trying to meet with the child first. Additionally, think about what all social workers have seen - for the most part, do you think they won't recognize the difference between an angry tween with a bad attitude (aka mom TAKES ALL MY STUFF and grounded me for a month), and legitimate physical abuse, with cigarette burns etc? In this neck of the woods (about an hour outside of LA), they tend to err on the side of parental rights.

Maybe it's different elsewhere, but I am actually pretty surprised at all the FJers who would speak with an attorney first or deny access to the child. Again, if you make them bring a cop with them, they will have a full warrant, and it will be a police report. If you argue further, you can be arrested for resisting. Also, you will look crazy. A CPS report =/= to a police report, and oftentimes abuse is not an arrestable offense. You have to understand- CPS is not there to investigate your laundry pile, how full your trash cans are, and whether you have an earthquake preparedness kit. They are not going to rifle through your drawers (unless they have a very specific reason, in which case they will get a warrant). They are going to look at the child's room to make sure there is a bed/sleeping area that is reasonably clean, and the common areas, also to make sure they are reasonably well kept. They MAY look in your fridge to see if there is some form of food, if they are there for neglect. Have you seen hoarders? NONE of those kids were removed immediately except a select few who had vermin in their sleeping areas and their guardians were given time to fix the issues.

Why would you talk to a lawyer before allowing a CPS interview? Your child is not being charged with a crime, and CPS will win. All that will do is obfuscate whether or not your child is in imminent danger.

[justbecause]

I think it is a difficult call without knowing the details. In general I would be very hesitant to let CPS into my home without an attorney present. I would set up a time for them to interview a child after I talked with my attorney but just let them in because they want to? No, they would have to tell me the basis. I have seen enough legal cases where people were being nice because they were sure the police/CPS would help them out if they did, it often ends worse for people who do not stand up for their rights. Before CPS is involved families have the right to do things largely as they believe is best for the child, once CPS is in the door a huge number of demands can turn up, which would not have been sufficient to start an investigation.

I don't think you can request a lawyer, not when it concerns a child. I think that you do not have to speak to CPS, but they have to see and talk to the child.

[instantkarma]

I was also thinking the DHS worker sounded pretty unsure of himself. I believe he may have been a Trainee. Often in my state they will send a Trainee with another Case Worker. I can see the senior Worker telling the Trainee to go to the car and call for backup.

One Case Worker generally responds to calls here. If they need backup, they call the police if needed. They can take the police with them in one of the following scenarios: domestic violence, rural area without cell service, or fear for their safety. There have been some CPS Workers suspended locally recently for taking police on a call with them without just cause.

[feministxtian]

I had CPS called on me about my youngest child when he was about 3. He ALWAYS looked like someone had beaten him up. Truth was, he was a very active, though clumsy little boy. The CPS worker came to the house, my little one was playing out front (we lived in the country so it was safe) and the CPS worker took a look at him and started her spiel about abuse...I then pointed out to her that he was playing on the flower beds, walking on the landscape timbers and falling off them, into the gravel driveway. In the space of about 5 minutes, he'd scraped his knee, banged his elbow, tripped over his own feet and was generally all beat up. I told the CPS worker I didn't need to lay a hand on him, he was quite capable of beating himself up. She agreed, suggested we have his vision tested and maybe an evaluation for ADHD, and that was that. Never heard from them again.

[mamallama]

I was also thinking the DHS worker sounded pretty unsure of himself. I believe he may have been a Trainee. Often in my state they will send a Trainee with another Case Worker. I can see the senior Worker telling the Trainee to go to the car and call for backup.

One Case Worker generally responds to calls here. If they need backup, they call the police if needed. They can take the police with them in one of the following scenarios: domestic violence, rural area without cell service, or fear for their safety. There have been some CPS Workers suspended locally recently for taking police on a call with them without just cause.

I'm in NJ and it is different here. I posted up thread about how I had a visit from a CPS worker, she brought a cop from the get go. I'm all of 4'9" and own no weapons (which would be on record here). I'm a single mom and as far as I could glean the reason for the call was I fell asleep before my 11 and 8 year old. I'm now an EMT in town and I know that the social workers request the police all the time (before trying on their own). I have no idea what the policy is in Arkansas just that it appears to vary.

[Sophie's Mommie]

I am purely speculating, and I am not trying to ruffle any feathers.

My very first thought regarding this report was Josie. She has been exposed to people that report possible neglect or abuse. (Ambulance & hospital). Considering she has had at least 4-5 prolonged seizures she may have been prescribed medication & follow up visits with a neurologist.

Her parents think it is just a glitch, but the Doctor's or siblings are concerned and placed a call due to non-compliance or worry.

It is just a hunch, I gave nothing to base it on and I am not diagnosing anyone.

Gotta say that this was my hunch, too. Could be someone (Dr, nurse, etc) saw the televised seizure and felt hinky enough to make a call. JB and Mullet film everything else, they would certainly film a doctors visit that would involve the little princess! :evil-eye:

[Snarkle Motion]

I was also thinking the DHS worker sounded pretty unsure of himself. I believe he may have been a Trainee. Often in my state they will send a Trainee with another Case Worker. I can see the senior Worker telling the Trainee to go to the car and call for backup.

One Case Worker generally responds to calls here. If they need backup, they call the police if needed. They can take the police with them in one of the following scenarios: domestic violence, rural area without cell service, or fear for their safety. There have been some CPS Workers suspended locally recently for taking police on a call with them without just cause.

It was super weird to me that they didn't list the address but instead called it the "Duggar house". That doesn't seem very professional and it makes me suspect whether someone from the media was trying to gain access to the children? I have no evidence to back this up but after everything that has happened in the last week this would not completely surprise me.