New DHS Probe

[SassyPants]

The Duggars 'don't cooperate with gov/agencies' is really backfiring on them. I do think that one good thing that is coming out of all this is just how their trying to manipulate situations in the past and then their current difficulties we see a realistic view of how their cult and beliefs really affect a family's lives.

Their beliefs and the way they conduct their lives are so 'out there' and I'm glad that is coming to light. Their so called 'Christian' beliefs are not true Christian actions that follow the bible at all. These are a fringe group that call themselves Christians and I for one am glad that is coming to light. They are a terrible example of Christianity and that hurts those who are Christians.

I think it's sacrilegious for them to even anchor onto Christianity. These people are not Christians as I do not believe they even accept the NT-

They belong to a cult and it's called Gothardism.

I think JB is as phony as they come, and that he says and does whatever he thinks is to his advantage. Michelle and the kids are all brainwashed.

[singsingsing]

Even when I was less critical of the Duggars, I thought their approach to Christianity was odd (and I was at that time a very active participant in Christianity myself). They sort of talked about Jesus, but where was he? They said, "Jesus first, others second, yourself last" but how did they actually live that out? They emphasized strange rules from the Old Testament, and strange rules found nowhere in the Bible at all, and seemed to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the what the Gospel actually was. Satan and evil seemed to play a much greater part in their lives than Jesus (their obsession with avoiding sin and almost pathological fear of putting a foot out of line), and Jesus was reduced to a get-out-of-hell free card.

[SassyPants]

Even when I was less critical of the Duggars, I thought their approach to Christianity was odd (and I was at that time a very active participant in Christianity myself). They sort of talked about Jesus, but where was he? They said, "Jesus first, others second, yourself last" but how did they actually live that out? They emphasized strange rules from the Old Testament, and strange rules found nowhere in the Bible at all, and seemed to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the what the Gospel actually was. Satan and evil seemed to play a much greater part in their lives than Jesus (their obsession with avoiding sin and almost pathological fear of putting a foot out of line), and Jesus was reduced to a get-out-of-hell free card.

EXACTLY!

As a lapsed Catholic, one who was educated in RC schools through university degree, I feel the exact same way about the Duggars approach to "religion." IMO, they follow some hybrid mismatch of kitchen sink philosophies and tenets that all circle back to a cult following.

[moriah]

No agency is perfect, neither CPS or law enforcement. Sometimes the system obviously fails the kids -- and the concern about "live-in boyfriends" that disappears when they get married is a problem. The Kelsey Briggs murder in Oklahoma is one instance where a child died who had a HUGE CPS file, and part of the reason the fact an investigation in progress did not protect her was that when the mom married a new man, they took that as evidence her home was becoming more stable (though before there had been concerns about that very man being a perpetrator). Getting hitched does not make a new man in the mother's life (or new woman in the father's life, for that matter) safe to have around the kids.

And sometimes CPS seems to torment innocent families. My ex-roommate was investigated by CPS after his youngest daughter hurt her foot at the school carnival the first night of his two-night visitation. I was living in the home but he and I were not romantically involved and the girls saw I had my own bedroom, so their mother had no problems with me specifically (nor did DHS seem to feel it was inappropriate for me to be living there). We'd had plans to attend the state fair the next day, but she said it still hurt the next morning, though it never got swollen or bruised, and she could walk on it fine (and also refused children's Advil because "it tastes yucky"). I was very accident-prone as a child and it looked like a minor sprain to me, and also I thought if it didn't hurt bad enough to want to take medicine for it she was probably fine.

We decided to wait on the Fair but she went to a Girl Scout event, where she saw her mother. My roommate told her about the injury, but the youngling wasn't complaining of pain or limping visibly, so their mom didn't think anything was wrong either. The second morning she was running on it and said it didn't hurt anymore, so we went to the Fair, where she walked all over creation and went through the fun house five times in a row (required walking, not a sitting ride). She started getting irritable as we left the Fair, and while she wasn't saying it hurt or favoring the foot, I was concerned and asked him to again mention it to her mom when he dropped them off that night. He did, and then went home to start posting all the pictures he took of the girls at the Fair.

About 11 that night he got a call from their Mom -- the foot started tuning up that night, and she took her to the ER where they diagnosed a hairline fracture. Because the injury had occurred several days before and the bone was broken, hospital policy geared toward avoiding any liability for failure to report abuse mandated that the Hotline be called to investigate possible medical neglect. The initial CPS investigation made a true finding against him, but he appealed and I testified about my involvement in her care that weekend. The pictures of her walking through the fun house a few hours before the ER x-ray helped, and they removed his name from the maltreatment registry. While it wasn't fun, I think the system worked as it should have for the most part, though the caseworker testified at his hearing that she never looked at the pictures he offered of the girls at the Fair. I'd rather errors on the side of caution.

It was worse for a friend of mine who lost her middle child, her first daughter, to drowning while the kids were in the care of her mother. The fact the grandma was a nurse was what allowed them to be able to donate her organs, though she was too late to prevent the severe brain damage that gave her no hope of recovery. Her oldest son blames himself because he left the sliding glass door open, she blames herself for having agreed to work an extra shift and leaving them at her mothers at all that day, her husband blamed himself for the fact money was tight leading her to make that decision (felt if he'd supported his family better it wouldn't have happened).... you can imagine how the grandma who was supposed to be watching all three kids felt, if everyone else could find things to blame themselves for when they were either not present or kids themselves. CPS was required to make follow-ups, and while they tried not to cause more grief, every time they showed up my friend would go into a deep depression for at least a week. Still, she didn't blame the caseworkers or the system -- she knew everyone was just doing their jobs. It was still painful to be reminded "Oh, yeah, it's been six months now..." "It's been 9 months now..." etc.

On the whole, I'd rather CPS put their noses in where they shouldn't, than that they failed to put their noses in where they should. There's no doubt it sucks to be the subject of an investigation, but there's this whole conservative myth of "CPS kidnaps kids for no reason!" that I suspect the Duggars have fallen victim to as well. Otherwise it makes no sense for them to not cooperate. And I hope if there is actual abuse or actionable neglect occurring (sadly it's not considered neglect to let your kids be raised by their sister-moms), that they don't back away from any investigation just because of the media spotlight or political connections.

[antwan]

Ohio must have exceptionally overly reactionary laws if they have, and enforce, regulations that literally every report has to be followed by an in- person follow- up. :shock: . A fairly large number of calls received are clearly unfounded, right off the bat. A few are not just clearly " iffy" over- reactions by neighbors, ex's, kids themselves ( my mom won't let me go to a party -- not making it up I had a clients teen who actually made that call :lol: ) -- but completely bizarre "i swear my neighbor is an alien who is abducting children to take to their home planet " level of nuts. I can't imagine a CPS worker having to actually investigate that crap.

Here is an article that has a good breakdown of actual nationwide numbers of reports, how many are screened out initially, how many are investigated, how many are determined to be unfounded, etc. it's a good article because it has an easy chart from reliable sources -- I only skimmed, so if there is a pro- or anti- CPS slant -- that's not why I chose it. Overall about a third of reports are screened out without follow- up. According to this article --After investigation only about 20% end up becoming active cases with substantiated abuse or neglect, another 10-20% fall into categories where therevwas no substantiated abuse or neglect, but the family was eligible for some sort of supportive services.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ns/374809/

Didn't say every report had to be followed by an IN PERSON follow-up. Said they are required to follow up (act on the call, and within 24 hours.)

[Mama Mia]

Sorry, you said they would have been " showing up" for years, and that sounds like " in person" to me. Even having to make follow up phone calls or -- however they investigate if it's not in person -- and then likely have to fill out paperwork on that -- sounds excessive if it's a clearly impossible report.

[skulduggery]

RE: Duggars pulling out homeschool convention because of "attacks" on their family.

salon.com/2015/06/11/jim_bob_and_michelle_duggar_pull_out_of_homeschool_conference_in_light_of_new_investigation/

Right, just like the way they have attacked the rights and families of LGBTQA people? This is exactly why people are calling them hypocrites. They attack, judge, and stand in the way of other people's rights; yet THEY claim to be victims when reasonable alarm is sounded on their complete inability to keep their daughters safe from sexual abuse? Please!

[gustava]

RE: Duggars pulling out homeschool convention because of "attacks" on their family.

salon.com/2015/06/11/jim_bob_and_michelle_duggar_pull_out_of_homeschool_conference_in_light_of_new_investigation/

Right, just like the way they have attacked the rights and families of LGBTQA people? This is exactly why people are calling them hypocrites. They attack, judge, and stand in the way of other people's rights; yet THEY claim to be victims when reasonable alarm is sounded on their complete inability to keep their daughters safe from sexual abuse? Please!

Since when have they taken responsibility for anything??? It's someone else's fault!!!

[Pandie5]

Since when have they taken responsibility for anything??? It's someone else's fault!!!

I would think the homeschooling community would WANT them to pull out. They bring unwanted attention to the issues of isolation and the material being fed to some of these kids. I'm all for freedom of religion, but home schoolers need to be looked at more closely by our society.

[laundry]

I think this is interesting and can't find it here by searching: nwaonline.com/news/2015/jun/13/springdale-police-newspaper-seek-clarif/?news-arkansas-nwa

You should read the article, because I might not be correct in what I write here, but I understand it like this:

NWADG wasn't able to obtain the 911 call because judge Zimmerman supposedly gave at least two more orders not to release records concerning the Duggars. The police department never got these orders, but became aware of them (after they've released the recording to InTouch) because a Ray Dotson included them in a complaint he filed against the release of the police report. These orders all had the same case file number, the number of the sealed juvenile court file. So how did Ray Dotson get them and why do Zimmerman think the 911 call (that doesn't identify anyone, there are severel minors in that house) shouldn't be obtained through an FOI request? We all figured out that Joy was one of the victims, but, if I'm not mistaken, Zimmerman directly identified her by ordering the police report destroyed because it could identify a still minor. I don't know if the last DHS visit was related to anything in the police report, but if it was then Zimmerman is the one who directly identifies the minor here too, if that is her official (but not real) reason for the orders not to release the 911 recording.

[antwan]

Sorry, you said they would have been " showing up" for years, and that sounds like " in person" to me. Even having to make follow up phone calls or -- however they investigate if it's not in person -- and then likely have to fill out paperwork on that -- sounds excessive if it's a clearly impossible report.

Yep, they have to be able to show that they followed through on a report of abuse/neglect. Sorry, see how my words may have confused. Only meant that, based on OH action, if there had been calls for years on the Duggars, this latest news would not be new news at all.

[antwan]

:dance:

I would think the homeschooling community would WANT them to pull out. They bring unwanted attention to the issues of isolation and the material being fed to some of these kids. I'm all for freedom of religion, but home schoolers need to be looked at more closely by our society.

Very short-sighted. Homeschoolers are NOT the issue. The Duggars , in this case, are. In most publicized cases of abuse or neglect where homeschooling was claimed, it was nothing more than a cover for the abuser to keep their involved children out of public eye. That scenario is NOT the "poster child" of homeschooling (nor are the unfortunate experiences of the limited number of homeschoolers who post to sites like Homeschoolers Anonymous).The vast majority of families who are fully committed to their children's education are exactly that, -FULLY committed. They work very hard to meet their children's academic and social needs, and homeschoolers are NOT struggling to get into college, manage relationships, join extra-curricular activities, etc. We've been at it for 10 years now with no out-of-the-ordinary issues at all. My dd just finished her first year in a traditional school (9th grade) on the volleyball team, and with a 3.9 GPA and the President's Award for academic excellence.

Statistically and realistically, most abuse is happening in non-homeschool homes and under the noses of public institutions. Do we need to look at every home, then, more closely, to be sure THOSE homes are on the up and up? I'm sorry, but there is a real gap in perception and reality where homeschoolers are concerned. PLEASE, be open enough to realize this, and to realize that cases like the Duggars are no more a representation of homeschoolers and the need to check them out more carefully, than Harris and Klebold, who horrifically killed 13people at Columbine, mean that public school parents need to be checked out more thoroughly. It's ridiculous to project the Duggars and other rare and sensationalized homeschool cases onto all homeschoolers. It's, frankly, very offensive, too.

[Rachel333]

As a homeschooling alumnus I absolutely think homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. I know far, far too many people who got terrible educations because they were homeschooled and there was no government oversight. It's very unfair to those kids that they don't even get a chance at a good education. There are homeschoolers who do it well, too, and they have nothing to fear from more oversight.

I find it very offensive that so many homeschooling parents continue to ignore former homeschooled kids who have anything negative to say about homeschooling. We're a minority, more abuse happens among public schooled kids, their kids are doing well, etc. That may be true but that is no excuse to ignore legitimate concerns. People who post to sites like https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/ aren't saying homeschooling is bad, just that it can be used irresponsibly. And no one is saying that public schools don't need more attention too. The "but what about public schools" argument remind me of people who criticize charities that focus on things like animal rights because there are actual humans suffering too. It is possible to care about more than one thing!

I've just found over and over, even with secular homeschoolers on sites like this, that homeschooling parents, very few of which have actually been homeschooled, just do not want to listen to anyone who has been homeschooled and has something negative to say about it, and it's extremely frustrating. I understand that it might feel personal, but it really isn't. Lots of homeschooling parents do great jobs, but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons to be concerned about those who do not.

[ididntdrinkthekoolaid]

As a homeschooling alumnus I absolutely think homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. I know far, far too many people who got terrible educations because they were homeschooled and there was no government oversight. It's very unfair to those kids that they don't even get a chance at a good education. There are homeschoolers who do it well, too, and they have nothing to fear from more oversight.

I find it very offensive that so many homeschooling parents continue to ignore former homeschooled kids who have anything negative to say about homeschooling. We're a minority, more abuse happens among public schooled kids, their kids are doing well, etc. That may be true but that is no excuse to ignore legitimate concerns. People who post to sites like https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/ aren't saying homeschooling is bad, just that it can be used irresponsibly. And no one is saying that public schools don't need more attention too. The "but what about public schools" argument remind me of people who criticize charities that focus on things like animal rights because there are actual humans suffering too. It is possible to care about more than one thing!

I've just found over and over, even with secular homeschoolers on sites like this, that homeschooling parents, very few of which have actually been homeschooled, just do not want to listen to anyone who has been homeschooled and has something negative to say about it, and it's extremely frustrating. I understand that it might feel personal, but it really isn't. Lots of homeschooling parents do great jobs, but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons to be concerned about those who do not.

YES to everything you said! My parents won't listen to me when I try to explain to them the problems being homeschooled(and their religious insanity) caused for me... they just get mad. Everyone on the "outside" thinks homeschooling is just peachy and my parents are perfect so they just assume I'm rebellious. :angry-banghead:

No. Homeschooling isn't the worst thing ever BUT not everyone does it right. Being isolated, not allowed to have friends, taught mainly Bible related stuff, and using it for control is NOT doing it right. I just wish someone would believe me.

[LilahBelle]

The debate just had in the last few posts on homeschooling illustrates just why this organization no longer want the Duggars associated with them.

[GiggleOfGirls]

As a homeschooling alumnus I absolutely think homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. I know far, far too many people who got terrible educations because they were homeschooled and there was no government oversight. It's very unfair to those kids that they don't even get a chance at a good education. There are homeschoolers who do it well, too, and they have nothing to fear from more oversight.

I find it very offensive that so many homeschooling parents continue to ignore former homeschooled kids who have anything negative to say about homeschooling. We're a minority, more abuse happens among public schooled kids, their kids are doing well, etc. That may be true but that is no excuse to ignore legitimate concerns. People who post to sites like https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/ aren't saying homeschooling is bad, just that it can be used irresponsibly. And no one is saying that public schools don't need more attention too. The "but what about public schools" argument remind me of people who criticize charities that focus on things like animal rights because there are actual humans suffering too. It is possible to care about more than one thing!

I've just found over and over, even with secular homeschoolers on sites like this, that homeschooling parents, very few of which have actually been homeschooled, just do not want to listen to anyone who has been homeschooled and has something negative to say about it, and it's extremely frustrating. I understand that it might feel personal, but it really isn't. Lots of homeschooling parents do great jobs, but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons to be concerned about those who do not.

I 100% agree with you. I'm a homeschool alumnus who had a good experience/education personally (Mr GoG was homeschooled for a few years and also had a good experience/education) and we're homeschooling our own children for the time being. I don't understand why current homeschoolers are so reluctant to listen to former homeschoolers who had bad experiences. Don't people want to know how NOT to homeschool so that they can avoid the most common pitfalls?

Mr GoG just asked me if there were any homeschooling round tables where adults who were homeschooled or unschooled could come together and talk about what worked and what didn't so that current homeschooling parents could learn and grow. I told him that I don't think there are, but that HA is kind of an online one primarily about what not to do.

I'd like to help raise more awareness/encourage folks to listen to the negative stories as well as the positive ones and I already speak out against abuses of homeschooling, but I'm not really sure what else to do. I think that one of the worst things current homeschoolers can do is to ignore or justify away the abuses done under the guise of homeschooling.

If you have any suggestions for how I could be more helpful regarding this issue, please let me know.

[drivingmishcrazy]

As a homeschooling alumnus I absolutely think homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. I know far, far too many people who got terrible educations because they were homeschooled and there was no government oversight. It's very unfair to those kids that they don't even get a chance at a good education. There are homeschoolers who do it well, too, and they have nothing to fear from more oversight.

THIS. I've been saying this for years now, and I get told I'm just bitter or "would have done poorly in public school anyway" and it pisses me off!

[antwan]

As a homeschooling alumnus I absolutely think homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. I know far, far too many people who got terrible educations because they were homeschooled and there was no government oversight. It's very unfair to those kids that they don't even get a chance at a good education. There are homeschoolers who do it well, too, and they have nothing to fear from more oversight.

I find it very offensive that so many homeschooling parents continue to ignore former homeschooled kids who have anything negative to say about homeschooling. We're a minority, more abuse happens among public schooled kids, their kids are doing well, etc. That may be true but that is no excuse to ignore legitimate concerns. People who post to sites like https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/ aren't saying homeschooling is bad, just that it can be used irresponsibly. And no one is saying that public schools don't need more attention too. The "but what about public schools" argument remind me of people who criticize charities that focus on things like animal rights because there are actual humans suffering too. It is possible to care about more than one thing!

I've just found over and over, even with secular homeschoolers on sites like this, that homeschooling parents, very few of which have actually been homeschooled, just do not want to listen to anyone who has been homeschooled and has something negative to say about it, and it's extremely frustrating. I understand that it might feel personal, but it really isn't. Lots of homeschooling parents do great jobs, but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons to be concerned about those who do not.

I can appreciate your position as one who was previously homeschooled myself, but you can't really expect that everyone would share your personal perspective and/or validate it, and that they are therefore "ignoring" your experiences because they don't. It's YOUR view, subjective, based on your own experiences, your specific educator-parent(s), your own abilities and limitations, and naturally your opinions, too. I have opinions as well.I get it that homeschooling can be and sometimes IS handled badly. But whether you've had a good or bad homeschool experience, it doesn't change the blatently obvious facts; the vast majority of adults in this country were public school educated, and there are MANY who have graduated with seriously poor educations. Is this not a fact? It's constantly covered in the media, and in government. You seem to not be able to separate your feelings and experiences from actual facts, -the fact that most abuse DOES occur directly under the noses and eyes of public school educators, the fact that many homeschool students ARE doing very well. It isn't an either/or issue. Again, should we look at Columbine (for example's sake) and thus suspect ALL public school parents and their home environments? Should we???

Is it fair to project onto them based on what failed in that circumstance?

I'm sincerely sorry you had a bad homeschool experience, but that doesn't mean all homeschool homes should pay for your lack of education, protection, etc. Poor education results and unsafe homes are sadly part of real life, not limited to homeschool, and not statistically proven to be any more prevalent in a homeschool environment than in a non homeschool environment.

If you feel offended that so many homeschoolers "ignore" your negative comments about your homeschooling experiences, I'm sure you're aware that they are YOUR experiences. They are valid to you, yes. But the positive experiences are likewise valid to those who have had positive experiences. The two perspectives coexist, and it is not on all homeschoolers to pay for what went wrong in your home, any more than it is on public school parents to pay for what went wrong in failed public schools and in failed public school homes.

The microscope of oversight hangs over public education day after day, year after year, and it clearly does not serve to prevent the shortcomings you seem to think it would serve to prevent if it hovered over home schools. You are, of course, entitled to believe that more regulation would solve the problems you experienced. Looking at the solutions and supposedprotections that often fail children in public schools, though, I'd say it's unlikely to accomplish as much as we might like to believe.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I don't understand why more oversight of homeschooking is a bad thing? It doesn't mean you can't use methods that work better for your child, but there absolutely has to be some kind of structure, especially in the early years, that will allow them to learn more advanced things later. I would imagine a homeschooling parent administers some kind of tests (or should use the same standardized tests that schools do, preferably) - why can't you turn that in to a credentialed teacher, or have occasional meetings to discuss your child's progress? Just because some parents on here are great, conscientious, dedicated homeschoolers, does not mean everyone is. So maybe you're a bit inconvenienced - IMHO, that's better than allowing someone like the Michelle Duggar (aka Jana Duggar) carte blanche to teach whatever and however she wants. It seems selfish to resent further oversight, oversight that would help the kids who AREN'T receiving any tangible education, or religious instruction only with no science, etc. Not only that, but why have this hubris about your methods - introspection is always good. There are probably things every parent / homeschool educator can do better. YMMV, and I sincerely do not mean to insult anyone, but as a budding therapist, I ask my clients for feedback. Maybe I think I'm doing this great thing that I learned in school, and they're trying not to nod off or something. It's good to be open to constructive criticism, I think.

******I mean the royal "you" here, not any particular poster********

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I can appreciate your position as one who was previously homeschooled myself, but you can't really expect that everyone would share your personal perspective and/or validate it, and that they are therefore "ignoring" your experiences because they don't. It's YOUR view, subjective, based on your own experiences, your specific educator-parent(s), your own abilities and limitations, and naturally your opinions, too. I have opinions as well.I get it that homeschooling can be and sometimes IS handled badly. But whether you've had a good or bad homeschool experience, it doesn't change the blatently obvious facts; the vast majority of adults in this country were public school educated, and there are MANY who have graduated with seriously poor educations. Is this not a fact? It's constantly covered in the media, and in government. You seem to not be able to separate your feelings and experiences from actual facts, -the fact that most abuse DOES occur directly under the noses and eyes of public school educators, the fact that many homeschool students ARE doing very well. It isn't an either/or issue. Again, should we look at Columbine (for example's sake) and thus suspect ALL public school parents and their home environments? Should we???

Is it fair to project onto them based on what failed in that circumstance?

I'm sincerely sorry you had a bad homeschool experience, but that doesn't mean all homeschool homes should pay for your lack of education, protection, etc. Poor education results and unsafe homes are sadly part of real life, not limited to homeschool, and not statistically proven to be any more prevalent in a homeschool environment than in a non homeschool environment.

If you feel offended that so many homeschoolers "ignore" your negative comments about your homeschooling experiences, I'm sure you're aware that they are YOUR experiences. They are valid to you, yes. But the positive experiences are likewise valid to those who have had positive experiences. The two perspectives coexist, and it is not on all homeschoolers to pay for what went wrong in your home, any more than it is on public school parents to pay for what went wrong in failed public schools and in failed public school homes.

The microscope of oversight hangs over public education day after day, year after year, and it clearly does not serve to prevent the shortcomings you seem to think it would serve to prevent if it hovered over home schools. You are, of course, entitled to believe that more regulation would solve the problems you experienced. Looking at the solutions and supposedprotections that often fail children in public schools, though, I'd say it's unlikely to accomplish as much as we might like to believe.

And there are as many success stories for both public and private-schooled children. Just because YOUR child did okay, does not mean that every child would with your methods. Maybe your child is just academically inclined, and would do well regardless of the type of schooling. Why do you care if someone looks at your lesson plan? Like, what is the big deal if your smart, educated child has to take a test now and then? I mean, it seems a bit rude to completely disregard someone's experience with homeschooling because you personally had a good experience - you're telling this person to be objective, and backing it up with anecdotal evidence only, but you don't seem to see that you should also be objective and respect their anecdotal experience?

Sincerely sorry if that sounds argumentative, I'm not sure how to word this without using "you" so many times.

[antwan]

My parents won't listen to me when I try to explain to them the problems being homeschooled (and their religious insanity) caused for me... they just get mad. Everyone on the "outside" thinks homeschooling is just peachy and my parents are perfect so they just assume I'm rebellious. :angry-banghead:

No. Homeschooling isn't the worst thing ever BUT not everyone does it right. Being isolated, not allowed to have friends, taught mainly Bible related stuff, and using it for control is NOT doing it right. I just wish someone would believe me.

I don't know if you were rebellious or not ;), but based on what you shared, here, I believe you. It certainly does not sound, by your description, like you received a well rounded, basic education. We read the bible daily, and that is an important part of our homeschool and our family. But it is NOT a curriculum. My children are allowed to have friends, and are active with them in multiple ways. They are all in extra-curricular activities as well. We work hard to keep our children integrated, and thus do not believe in living as biblical separatists (a la Duggars), but....we likewise do not appreciate folks who are intolerant of our personal choices, and would wish to control our right to choose differently. On that issue of control, I hear you, too.

[antwan]

And there are as many success stories for both public and private-schooled children. Just because YOUR child did okay, does not mean that every child would with your methods. Maybe your child is just academically inclined, and would do well regardless of the type of schooling. Why do you care if someone looks at your lesson plan? Like, what is the big deal if your smart, educated child has to take a test now and then? I mean, it seems a bit rude to completely disregard someone's experience with homeschooling because you personally had a good experience - you're telling this person to be objective, and backing it up with anecdotal evidence only, but you don't seem to see that you should also be objective and respect their anecdotal experience?

Sincerely sorry if that sounds argumentative, I'm not sure how to word this without using "you" so many times.

Yes, totally (thank you, Jill). There sure are successes and failures in both camps. But as you say, maybe my child is just academically inclined and would do well in ANY school. But she didn't attend ANY school. She was homeschooled, and it was successful, in spite of your views on homeschooling. By your token, maybe homeschoolers who feel academically failed by their homeschool experiences would have failed regardless of the type of schooling as well. And also by your token, we can't possibly conclude that successful students in public education are the result of excellent teachers. See, so very subjective.

Why so defensive, btw? Really,what do you care if someone doesn't look at my lesson plan? (How do you know they haven't?

How do you know my students haven't taken a test now and then? Stop assuming.)

So, you believe in imposing on the right of a parent to direct the education of his/her child. I have to wonder what other rights do you believe in imposing on. I mean, when the Duggars are judged for failing at the education of their children, but yet you can't accept that others are succeeding either, that just sounds....intolerant. And to be clear, I didn't "completely disregard" someone's experience. (but yeah, that would be a tad hypocritical of you to accuse me of that, when you presumed to suggest my child's home education experience might not be authentically successful, but perhaps only coincidental. Yeah, definitely hypocritical of you.)

As for anecdotal evidence, is that what really you want? :think: Doubt it,but you'd have to live in a cave to not be aware of the shortcomings with public education. In the meantime, I'll continue to exercise my right to direct the education of my children as I see fit, and while others might not have had a decent home education, I'm confident my children are receiving one and the proof is in their academic and social ability.

[justoneoftwo]

I am always a little frightened about the idea that if your doing things right you shouldn't be concerned with the government interference. The attitude shows a trust in the government that is simply unwarranted. There is a case currently in the news of an 11 year old who was allowed to play in the yard for 90 minutes, and the family is now under investigation and the child was temporarily removed. That is a family that did nothing wrong, but the government is interfiling and causing huge amounts of harm.

I do not have kids, and when we do we will not home school (neither headship nor I have the time, or skills required) but how hard is it to imagine that interference would be problematic there. Taking the same standardized tests? Avoiding teaching to tests especially standardized ones is a reason people do home school, so of course that is a problem. That is just one example from the suggestions here.

I'm not opposed to all government interference, the headship would have died as a child without it, but yes I fear it. We intend to raise our kids well, without corporal punishment and so on, in ways most people would not consider problematic in at all, but there will be social workers out there who think the kids should not play outside so much, should not walk to the store alone at an age where it is appropriate in our minds (like 11-14) or might not approve of how we are teaching our kids to think independently. So yes, there is reason to be concerned about government oversight even if your not doing anything wrong. The attitude that there shouldn't be is short sighted and frighteningly trusting.

[Toothfairy]

In my state homeschoolers have to take standardize testing and do well on it. I will agree homeschoolers need to be looked at more closely. Especially fundie homeschoolers or very religious homeschoolers. Only learning bible isn't school. That's educational neglect. Then there are people who homeschool to abuse their kids.

My girls love homeschooling They've both done very well. My 18yo just graduated from her online school and is off to a very good college. However, it's not for everyone. There are people who didn't like homeschooling and had a bad experience with it. I don't think their view and opinion should be attacked.

[quiversR4hunting]

I am always a little frightened about the idea that if your doing things right you shouldn't be concerned with the government interference. The attitude shows a trust in the government that is simply unwarranted. There is a case currently in the news of an 11 year old who was allowed to play in the yard for 90 minutes, and the family is now under investigation and the child was temporarily removed. That is a family that did nothing wrong, but the government is interfiling and causing huge amounts of harm.

I do not have kids, and when we do we will not home school (neither headship nor I have the time, or skills required) but how hard is it to imagine that interference would be problematic there. Taking the same standardized tests? Avoiding teaching to tests especially standardized ones is a reason people do home school, so of course that is a problem. That is just one example from the suggestions here.

I'm not opposed to all government interference, the headship would have died as a child without it, but yes I fear it. We intend to raise our kids well, without corporal punishment and so on, in ways most people would not consider problematic in at all, but there will be social workers out there who think the kids should not play outside so much, should not walk to the store alone at an age where it is appropriate in our minds (like 11-14) or might not approve of how we are teaching our kids to think independently. So yes, there is reason to be concerned about government oversight even if your not doing anything wrong. The attitude that there shouldn't be is short sighted and frighteningly trusting.

IMO the jury is still out to the legitimacy of the 11 year old playing outside for 90 minutes story. When I saw it I did a search (and then again today when I saw your post) all the articles are almost identical. None of the websites are legitimate news sites. No local news agency picked up the story (cbs, nbc, abc, or fox). Makes me think it is made up story.