New DHS Probe

[mamallama]

I was just going to echo your(?) sentiment from up thread that this was not the hill I want to die on either. But I did want to add in my state everyone's a mandated reporter, including parents, JimBoob.

[JenniferJuniper]

According to what I just read, parental consent is needed, so I don't know about that....

I need to stop commenting lol. I really want to get back to talking about the Duggars :lol: I feel like we've had this debate on FJ about 1,000 times, and everyone will just have to agree to disagree.

Agree with getting back to the Duggars, but accuracy is important. Especially for those who happen to live in specific states that still allow children to be paddled.

I don't know what you read, but here's the 2014 Florida statute that addresses corporal punishment.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind ... 03.32.html

No parental consent required, only that "the teacher or principal who has administered punishment shall, upon request, provide the student’s parent with a written explanation of the reason for the punishment and the name of the other adult who was present".

[Mama Mia]

But public school is not used to educationally, emotionally and physically abuse children. Homesechooling without regulation is. Oversight and regulation is not a way of homeschoolers "pay". For someone who is asking for an open mind, yours is awfully closed on this.

14 percent of adults in the United States can't read. Over 20% read below a 5 th grade level. That's one out of five adults. That number includes almost 20% of high school graduates. That number hasn't changed with " no child left behind" The vast, vast majority of those adults attended public school. That certainly sounds like educational neglect to me.

19 states still allow corporal punishment in school. Primarily hitting kids with a board, often leaving bruises. Ironically, these are the institutions that are supposed to be this safety net and another set of eyes for children .

That certainly sounds like physical abuse to me.

I could use anecdotal evidence of the massively harmful, emotionally abusive statements made to kids in public school who struggle. Or you could google it. Or you could google bullying in public schools. But yes, most definitely public school can be an emotionally abusive setting.

I am not anti- public school. I went to public school. Most of my kids attended public school and did just fine throughout. A couple excelled. I have little grandchildren who have just started public school and love it. I even have a child who is a public school teacher. Public school can be great. It can also be a nightmare for students who don't fit in the particular box of skills that win praise - or at least acceptance - in the classroom setting. A monumentally artificial setting, that is unlikely to be duplicated in adult life -- but is deemed all important from the ages of 6- 18. And students who aren't able to at least fake ability in that situation can be treated like absolute garbage by their peers and the authorities in charge.

It isn't a general dislike of oversight for homeschoolers that concerns me -- it's that the " oversight" will take on the exact aspects of public schooling that can make it a dismal failure for a significant proportion of the population.

[mamallama]

It isn't a general dislike of oversight for homeschoolers that concerns me -- it's that the " oversight" will take on the exact aspects of public schooling that can make it a dismal failure for a significant proportion of the population.

^^^This^^^^

[lolo3300]

CPS worker here. In my state, I am not even allowed to ask what kind of curriculum a parent who chooses to home school is using. When do not have educational neglect as one of our categories of abuse/neglect. This may be my state only.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Oversight or not, abuse will happen in families. It's a horrible reality, but it will. Children aren't protected just cause they're "on the radar." Every year, at least 6 million children are victims of child abuse. only 2.2 million children are homeschooled right now (up from 1.7 million in 2010). Even if everyone of them was abused and reported, that's still 3.6 million children unaccounted for. Furthermore, 45% of the population of abuse victims is under the age of 5 (25% are under the age of 3, when they'd be at the doctor more often; thereby disproving the whole "when you're younger, you're around mandatory reporters more often" claim). And, of the children who die from abuse or neglect, 70.3% are under the age of 3, with 44.4% being under the age of 1 (when they should be going to well-baby appointments on a very regular basis).

In 2013, 7.1% of the nationally representative sample of highschoolers reported missing at least one day of school in the last 30 days because they felt unsafe. 5.2% reported to caring a weapon on campus in the last 30 days. 6.9% reported being threatened or injured with a weapon on school grounds in the 12 months prior.19.6% reported being bullied on school property and 12.8% reported being bullied electronically during the 12 months prior. 8.1% were in a physical fight on school property. And, these are all with 75% of schools in the US being "zero tolerance" schools. Speaking of, in the zero tolerance schools, suspensions and expulsions, which critically damage a child's ability to learn, run rampant. Even at the preschool level, 5000 of the 1million children enrolled in public schools were suspended in 2011-2012, with 2500 of them being suspended more than once because of zero tolerance policies. At the older level, 3million students k-12 were suspended in 2010. A quarter of those were reported to the police with misdemeanor tickets that, in most cases, were for actions that could have been dealt with without any kind of intervention from outside forces or disruption in the learning process. And, while that might not seem like much, suspensions and expulsions are the number one predictor of students dropping out of school (even more so than poverty). More than 80% of people in prison are high school dropouts. Then, there's this article that talks about abuse that happens in charter schools: educationopportunitynetwork.org/eon-awarded-for-questioning-the-charter-school-hype/

With all those existing in the presence of or because of people who, by law, are "mandatory reporters," WHY would anyone think that "regulation of homeschooling" is going to limit the amount of abuse homeschoolers face?

As for those claiming that regulations help protect children from "educational neglect" (which I only ever hear about when people talk about regulating homeschoolers, and I have never actually heard used as a real definition of abuse/neglect):

-In 2013, NAEP found that 66% of fourth graders are "below proficient." That same year, 22% of eighth graders scored below "basic" level, and only 36% were at or above grade level.

-In 2013, NAEP found that 58% of fourth graders were "below proficient." That same year, 22% of eighth graders scored below "basic" level, and only 38% were at or above grade level.

-homeschoolers typically score 15-30% higher than public school children

-homeschoolers score above average on achievement tests regardless of parent's formal education or household income (which is a strong contrast to the public school system, where students from low income families are, on average, 2 years behind in 4th grade and 4 years behind by senior year)

-67.7% of homeschoolers enrolled in college graduate, compared to 57.5% of their peers. This is complete with a 1 point higher GPA average.

-74% of homeschoolers attend a college level class, compared to 46% of the general public

I do understand that there are some very horrible people teaching their own children (like the Duggars). But, there are also very horrible people in charge of teaching other people's children or in charge of the people who teach other people's children. No amount of regulation is going to prevent children to be failed on an academic level or be abused. But, higher regulations have been shown to cause more problems.

If there was evidence to support that the average homeschooler was below average when compared to public school children, I would be inclined to believe that this is something we need to address with regulations. But, the statistics don't exist in that direction.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Thank you

[DuggarWatch]

If there was evidence to support that the average homeschooler was below average when compared to public school children, I would be inclined to believe that this is something we need to address with regulations. But, the statistics don't exist in that direction.

First of all, the curriculum the Duggars use for homeschooling is NOT the average homeschool curriculum. They use a fringe program that very few homeschoolers use.

Here is one commentary:

"The average homeschooler is not an ATI/Duggar type. ATI’s heyday was several decades ago. This year, they celebrated that 'more than a thousand' people attended their most recent conference in Nashville. To put this in perspective, the biggest set of homeschool conventions, which has several locations across the country each year, gets at least 7,000 and as many as 10-12,000 attendees to each spot.

"Atop that, almost every state has its own homeschool convention, and in states like California and Texas attendance is at least 10,000 people per event. ATI is a drop in the homeschool bucket."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/15/rea ... residency/

Secondly, most homeschoolers are not taught around the kitchen table with 19 siblings. Many parents choose homeschooling so that their kids have more individual attention, but this hardly applies in the Duggar household!

[FloraKitty35]

First of all, the curriculum the Duggars use for homeschooling is NOT the average homeschool curriculum. They use a fringe program that very few homeschoolers use.

Here is one commentary:

"The average homeschooler is not an ATI/Duggar type. ATI’s heyday was several decades ago. This year, they celebrated that 'more than a thousand' people attended their most recent conference in Nashville. To put this in perspective, the biggest set of homeschool conventions, which has several locations across the country each year, gets at least 7,000 and as many as 10-12,000 attendees to each spot.

"Atop that, almost every state has its own homeschool convention, and in states like California and Texas attendance is at least 10,000 people per event. ATI is a drop in the homeschool bucket."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/15/rea ... residency/

Secondly, most homeschoolers are not taught around the kitchen table with 19 siblings. Many parents choose homeschooling so that their kids have more individual attention, but this hardly applies in the Duggar household!

Sometimes, there doesn't need to be 19 siblings for there to be neglect with homeschooling. I have a nephew and he has been homeschooled since he was 10 (2007). They reason that he was pulled from public school was due to the fact that he was supposed to take an assessment to see if qualified for accelerated classes. (My sister in law didn't think that he should have to take a test. He should have been allowed to take those classes automatically. (She is a psychotic bitch and she persuaded my brother to attempt to kill me , but that is another story.) She has NEVER worked with him. After she implemented this brilliant plan of hers, she had three more children in two years. My nephew is now 17 and is a total misfit oddball, if he had to enroll in high school, he could not function in a class full of AP (Advanced Placement) students let alone "average" students.

[Evenkeel]

They don't just use the ATI curriculum. They also use Switched on Schoolhouse, which is doublespeak for "computer-driven vaguely education-related indoctrination." They talk about curricula on their website.

[Toothfairy]

Not everyone who homeschools, homeschools for religious reasons. ATI isn't even a legit homeschool curriculum. I know in my state a homeschool kid has to be taught certain subjects and there's no way around it.

As a homeschool parent it does put a bad taste in my mouth when other homeschoolers don't think abuse can't happen to homeschoolers or its no big deal. Hslda doesn't help the matter when they claim religious oppression for christian homeschoolers. I do think the government needs to make sure these kids are safe. Yes most homeschoolers don't abuse their kids but some do. Children have a right to be educated and not be abused. I would rather be safe than sorry. At least kids in regular school have teachers and other adults they can turn to or an adult that can recognize abuse. Fundie homeschoolers like the Duggars don't have that. And sadly they think everything they do is normal.

Here's a link to recent stories of children who were abused by parents who homeschooled.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/about-us/

[Pandie5]

:dance:

Very short-sighted. Homeschoolers are NOT the issue. The Duggars , in this case, are. In most publicized cases of abuse or neglect where homeschooling was claimed, it was nothing more than a cover for the abuser to keep their involved children out of public eye. That scenario is NOT the "poster child" of homeschooling (nor are the unfortunate experiences of the limited number of homeschoolers who post to sites like Homeschoolers Anonymous).The vast majority of families who are fully committed to their children's education are exactly that, -FULLY committed. They work very hard to meet their children's academic and social needs, and homeschoolers are NOT struggling to get into college, manage relationships, join extra-curricular activities, etc. We've been at it for 10 years now with no out-of-the-ordinary issues at all. My dd just finished her first year in a traditional school (9th grade) on the volleyball team, and with a 3.9 GPA and the President's Award for academic excellence.

Statistically and realistically, most abuse is happening in non-homeschool homes and under the noses of public institutions. Do we need to look at every home, then, more closely, to be sure THOSE homes are on the up and up? I'm sorry, but there is a real gap in perception and reality where homeschoolers are concerned. PLEASE, be open enough to realize this, and to realize that cases like the Duggars are no more a representation of homeschoolers and the need to check them out more carefully, than Harris and Klebold, who horrifically killed 13people at Columbine, mean that public school parents need to be checked out more thoroughly. It's ridiculous to project the Duggars and other rare and sensationalized homeschool cases onto all homeschoolers. It's, frankly, very offensive, too.

Statistically, yes. More abuse happens in a traditional school setting. Because a higher percentage of kids are in a school environment. Abuse happens everywhere.

I'm not saying all homeschoolers are the Duggars. I looked into it due to a lack of gifted ed for my kids at a young age. But felt socialization was more important. I didn't want socialization be with all the fundies I found...I'm just saying the more extreme of the religious end of home schoolers probably don't want the type of exposure that the Duggars bring to the issue. Scratching the surface of their ideology makes it seem like an American Taliban is growing in America.

I have a friend who home schooled one child at high school age due to learning and social issues. It was online and junior college classes. Turned out great. Graduated early and had early placement into college.

I also have a cousin who home schooled their kids. They claimed it was for health reasons. But that excuse fell apart in a few years. If it was a health issue, it was munchausen by proxy, due to grandma's & a parent's social anxiety issues. Their kids all went to college because the other parent made sure higher level math and science classes happened at a junior college by 16...But their outcome was the result of one parent's forced balance on the issue. The other parent and a grandma would have kept the kids bricked away from the world and under their roof FOREVER. A weaker parent would have allowed the neurosis to continue, but ultimately got their spouse help too.

Edited to redact gender specific words and pronouns to protect the innocent. (Snark)

[Pandie5]

And on the issue of homeschool isolation, one image stands out in my mind from the Duggars. Jessa on camera is confident and strong. But that engagement scavenger hunt? She seemed terrified to go up to anyone she didn't know just to ask a simple question. She looked like she was afraid of being bitten. They even pointed out that Ben was forcing her outside of her comfort zone.

[SpeakNow]

Oversight or not, abuse will happen in families. It's a horrible reality, but it will. Children aren't protected just cause they're "on the radar." Every year, at least 6 million children are victims of child abuse. only 2.2 million children are homeschooled right now (up from 1.7 million in 2010). Even if everyone of them was abused and reported, that's still 3.6 million children unaccounted for. Furthermore, 45% of the population of abuse victims is under the age of 5 (25% are under the age of 3, when they'd be at the doctor more often; thereby disproving the whole "when you're younger, you're around mandatory reporters more often" claim). And, of the children who die from abuse or neglect, 70.3% are under the age of 3, with 44.4% being under the age of 1 (when they should be going to well-baby appointments on a very regular basis).

In 2013, 7.1% of the nationally representative sample of highschoolers reported missing at least one day of school in the last 30 days because they felt unsafe. 5.2% reported to caring a weapon on campus in the last 30 days. 6.9% reported being threatened or injured with a weapon on school grounds in the 12 months prior.19.6% reported being bullied on school property and 12.8% reported being bullied electronically during the 12 months prior. 8.1% were in a physical fight on school property. And, these are all with 75% of schools in the US being "zero tolerance" schools. Speaking of, in the zero tolerance schools, suspensions and expulsions, which critically damage a child's ability to learn, run rampant. Even at the preschool level, 5000 of the 1million children enrolled in public schools were suspended in 2011-2012, with 2500 of them being suspended more than once because of zero tolerance policies. At the older level, 3million students k-12 were suspended in 2010. A quarter of those were reported to the police with misdemeanor tickets that, in most cases, were for actions that could have been dealt with without any kind of intervention from outside forces or disruption in the learning process. And, while that might not seem like much, suspensions and expulsions are the number one predictor of students dropping out of school (even more so than poverty). More than 80% of people in prison are high school dropouts. Then, there's this article that talks about abuse that happens in charter schools: educationopportunitynetwork.org/eon-awarded-for-questioning-the-charter-school-hype/

With all those existing in the presence of or because of people who, by law, are "mandatory reporters," WHY would anyone think that "regulation of homeschooling" is going to limit the amount of abuse homeschoolers face?

As for those claiming that regulations help protect children from "educational neglect" (which I only ever hear about when people talk about regulating homeschoolers, and I have never actually heard used as a real definition of abuse/neglect):

-In 2013, NAEP found that 66% of fourth graders are "below proficient." That same year, 22% of eighth graders scored below "basic" level, and only 36% were at or above grade level.

-In 2013, NAEP found that 58% of fourth graders were "below proficient." That same year, 22% of eighth graders scored below "basic" level, and only 38% were at or above grade level.

-homeschoolers typically score 15-30% higher than public school children

-homeschoolers score above average on achievement tests regardless of parent's formal education or household income (which is a strong contrast to the public school system, where students from low income families are, on average, 2 years behind in 4th grade and 4 years behind by senior year)

-67.7% of homeschoolers enrolled in college graduate, compared to 57.5% of their peers. This is complete with a 1 point higher GPA average.

-74% of homeschoolers attend a college level class, compared to 46% of the general public

I do understand that there are some very horrible people teaching their own children (like the Duggars). But, there are also very horrible people in charge of teaching other people's children or in charge of the people who teach other people's children. No amount of regulation is going to prevent children to be failed on an academic level or be abused. But, higher regulations have been shown to cause more problems.

If there was evidence to support that the average homeschooler was below average when compared to public school children, I would be inclined to believe that this is something we need to address with regulations. But, the statistics don't exist in that direction.

Correlation does not equal causation. Typically, parents who homeschool are highly educated or highly invested in their children's education. Ergo, those children would have higher test scores regardless of schooling situations. Parents who are in poverty or are high school drop outs themselves are less likely to homeschool. The children of such parents are also more likely to struggle in public school.

Just a general complaint here:

It royally pisses me off when homeschoolers feel the need to bash public schools in order to prove how much better homeschooling is. I'm a public school teacher. Sure, there are some bad teachers, much the way there are bad homeschooling parents. Painting the entire public school system with a broad brush is inaccurate and, in my opinion, highly disrespectful to the many educators, staff, therapists, and administrators who work their asses off every day to try and provide students with the best education and services they can. The homeschool parents that tend to paint the public school system as such are also the ones that get super defensive and angry when people assume all homeschooling is Duggar-style. It's fine to bash public school, but heaven forbid anyone should ever bash homeschooling. There are good and bad people in the public school system and good and bad people homeschooling. It's unfair to paint either option as completely negative.

Also, it drives me nuts when people brag about how awesome and advanced their homeschooled child is. First of all, that is anecdotal data and doesn't prove that all homeschooling is positive. Second of all, bragging is just really annoying. Please, just don't brag.

Rant over.

Edited because he and the are two different words.

[halcionne]

And on the issue of homeschool isolation, one image stands out in my mind from the Duggars. Jessa on camera is confident and strong. But that engagement scavenger hunt? She seemed terrified to go up to anyone she didn't know just to ask a simple question. She looked like she was afraid of being bitten. They even pointed out that Ben was forcing her outside of her comfort zone.

Hmm you are making me want to see this episode for myself. :lol:

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I have not seen a SINGLE person on here say they want to take away a parent's right to homeschool, so all this glowing anecdota about how special and advanced homeschooled kids are is kind of cracking me up. Guess what, I went to public school, swept through the advanced classes, graduated at 16 and got a full scholarship to college for my swimming! Public school is 100% awesome for everyone! No one even needs to question it because of my glorious experience! Lol.

Anyways, Jennifer Juniper is right - Florida schools don't require parental consent for corporal punishment. Not all districts use it, but yikes. Why has this not been a human rights case?

[nelliebelle1197]

I have not seen a SINGLE person on here say they want to take away a parent's right to homeschool, so all this glowing anecdota about how special and advanced homeschooled kids are is kind of cracking me up. Guess what, I went to public school, swept through the advanced classes, graduated at 16 and got a full scholarship to college for my swimming! Public school is 100% awesome for everyone! No one even needs to question it because of my glorious experience! Lol.

Anyways, Jennifer Juniper is right - Florida schools don't require parental consent for corporal punishment. Not all districts use it, but yikes. Why has this not been a human rights case?

I am just always shocked at how gifted every homeschool child and what a special snowflake. :roll:

I grew up in Florida a thousand years ago and do not remember paddling ever going on. My school district in Georgia - and in everyone of the most populous districts in the state that surround me - certainly never does it and it is not even allowed. Just because it is legal does not mean that every school is actually doing it or that the state/local school boardsallow it. There are tons of antiquated laws on the books that are not employed in day to day policy all over the country.

[Mama Mia]

Speaknow - wow, way to completely miss the point.

Nobody is saying public schools are horrible places for all children. Nobody is saying all homeschooling parents are doing it right.

People ARE saying that it is a bad idea to take a system with some pretty pervasive fundamental flaws and use it's tools and methods to prevent abuse or educational neglect.

[DuggarWatch]

One of the serious problems with the Duggar kids being homeschooled is that many of them have serious learning problems - problems which need the attention of experts.

Here is a statement Michelle once made:

"When my husband, Jim Bob, was a little boy he had a speech impediment, and he really struggled with reading. As a homeschool mom, understanding his perspective helped me to not have certain expectations about how my kids would all learn. When we were first married, we would read the Scriptures together in the mornings, and I would read, and then he'd take a turn. He would literally flip words around and put different words in different places.

"I noticed some of our kids had the same struggle. It was important to be able to explain to them, 'It doesn't mean that you're not smart. You're very smart.' Those are the kids who may struggle with some parts of schoolwork but can fix anything, take stuff apart and really understand how things work.

"One time when I was teaching the kids to read and write and I got a precious little keepsake of a 'Mommy, I love you' picture with literally the whole message written backwards -- if you put it up to a mirror it looked perfect! The next week they might write a word correctly and then the following week it would be incorrect, and we'd go over the lessons again and it would eventually click for them."

That quote is from a TLC webpage which has since been removed (big surprise), but you can view the archive here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... en&ct=clnk

[Librul]

^^^^

I would ask, "Can you spell D Y S L E X I A?" But unfortunately, I suspect they can't.

I had a friend who homeschooled for that very reason. She was a trained reading specialist and thought her time would be best spent for a few years working one-on-one with her own child. Michelle, on the other hand, thinks the struggle of transposing letters and seeing letters and words inverted or backwards is "precious" and hands the crowd off to Jessa for computer worksheet time. Honestly, just when you think you can't learn anything else that would lower your tolerance or respect for them, you hit a new low.

[SnazzyNazzy]

Every single thing about this family, is just totally FUBAR,

[DuggarWatch]

^^^^

I would ask, "Can you spell D Y S L E X I A?" But unfortunately, I suspect they can't.

I had a friend who homeschooled for that very reason. She was a trained reading specialist and thought her time would be best spent for a few years working one-on-one with her own child. Michelle, on the other hand, thinks the struggle of transposing letters and seeing letters and words inverted or backwards is "precious" and hands the crowd off to Jessa for computer worksheet time. Honestly, just when you think you can't learn anything else that would lower your tolerance or respect for them, you hit a new low.

Not to mention the fact that she speaks about having MANY special needs children! The DHS really needs to investigate this family and get help for those kids.

[VelociRapture]

My own personal opinion is this: I think homeschooling can be a good thing under the right conditions. Obviously, what the Duggars have done shouldn't be considered representative of the entire homeschooling community and is not a route I would ever advise a family to take. But yes, for some students it is the best option under the right conditions.

That said, public schools aren't a bad option either. Many, many students do well in public school settings - I'm one such child as are my sister, brother, fiance, and my brother-in-laws. Again, it really depends on the child, on the school district you live in, and on the parents (I'm a big believer in parents being an important part of the learning process at home).

Public School Parents, if you aren't happy with your child's performance or feel like the curriculum isn't what you were hoping for, discuss it with your child's teacher. There are bad teachers who don't care, but most teachers want to see your child do well and are willing to work with you to make it happen.

Homeschooling Parents, please know most people realize you aren't all like the Duggars and there are many well-respected curricula to choose from.

No matter what side of this debate you are on, I think we can all agree that a child's well-being and education have to come first. What the Duggars have done is the exact opposite of what most parents want for their kids. . . and the reason for that isn't because they choose one educational method (public school v. home-school) over the other, but because they are shitty parents who don't give a fuck.

(Sincerely: the very proud sister, sister-in-law, and granddaughter of public school teachers)

[RosyDaisy]

Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wyoming all still allow corporal punishment in public schools.

In Alabama parents have to sign a form stating they do not want corporal punishment used to discipline their children.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Not to mention the fact that she speaks about having MANY special needs children! The DHS really needs to investigate this family and get help for those kids.

Not sure if really that many special needs children, or if she's just a bad teacher and can't tell the difference.