New DHS Probe

[SassyPants]

Jim Bob suing InTouch over this would be the biggest nightmare for his family. Being forced to answer questions under oath about the accuracy of the information published...court records are public record...it would put everything out there. There is a reason celebrities rarely sue gossip magazines. They'd make InTouch's year if they sued.

I wouldn't put it past JB to try something so stupid, though, because he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer and his Authori-tah!! has not been respected. For someone so obviously overcompensating, having the illusion destroyed is the most infuriating thing that can happen. I'd be afraid to be in that house right now, to be honest.

The older kids put up and endured early on, and NOW the younger kids are, unfortunately, going to have to endure the nastiness of JB and M, without the easy money.

19 kids- all experiencing the neglect and crappy parenting of JB and M.

ALL of those kids have been victimized by JB and M, even Joshua.

[lascuba]

I think Jim Bob was lying about wanting to sue anyone. He has to know he doesn't have a chance of hell in winning, and that in the course of a trial a LOT more can come out. He threw the idea out there as a way to legitimize what he was saying--if he's claiming that he's going to sue, then surely it must be true that the police chief took a bribe and that the department broke the law in releasing the police report.

[LittleOleMe]

I think Jim Boob and J'Chelle feel the heat to get to 20 kids since Smuggar and Anna put up their web site, ja20.com They are obviously shooting for 20 kids, pardon the pun. Boob is so competitive with his sons, I think he wants to make sure he won't be outdone.

Josh and Ann were both 20 when they got married, hence the name.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Jim Bob is a snake oil salesman. He is not PERSONALLY dumb enough to think In Touch has broken any laws, and that he can win a lawsuit against them. HOWEVER, his analytic-thinking impaired wife, grossly undereducated children, and willfully ignorant leghumpers may legitimately think he has a case. These people aren't going to fact check - they can't even be bothered to look at the fucking police report for two seconds to confirm the children received treatment before spewing a bunch of nonsense all over the interwebs. So, in a month, when JB goes on the record as saying "I'm not going to sue, because my family just really wants to move past this and get back to Jeebus," he will be heralded by family and followers as a magnanimous saint.

And again, I want to remind FJ that ALL critical comments from the past week or so magically disappeared from their FB page last night. It is a bastion of yes men, idiots, and cult-following day dreamers. Do you really think any of these Duggar zealots are looking at Gawker or CNN to get the real story? No way. It would ruin the fantasy they have of the #aspirational perfect family.

[Cleopatra7]

Have any of the family who are full-time residents of the TTH left the house since this all went down?

What sorts of visitors -- people who could leave when they pleased -- been to the house?

If the call came from someone inside the house it would pretty much have to be someone who lived there full time.

If none of the minor children have been visible to the public since this hit then the call would've had to come from someone who had been to the house between May 21 and 27 and witnessed something during that time period that warranted a call (assuming the call was legit). So, who's been there? Lawyers, absolutely. Discovery Communications (or whatever it's called) reps? Trusted friends?

What I'm trying (poorly) to get at is that only a limited number of people have seen the kids since this all went down so the call had to have come from one of them, right?

I apologize for any duplication of thought; I'm just trying to get the logistics of the phone call straight in my own head.

Maybe it had to do with fears that Josie might be neglected far as her seizures or other possible health issues. I would think that the Duggars would have an obligation to make sure any special needs of Josie are being addressed with therapy and education, but the Duggars being Duggars, I can see them blowing it off and insisting that she's completely normal.

[YoshiCat]

These are excellent questions! That's all I have to contribute right now. :shock:

I was one of those posters; sorry about that. I was feeling (still do) like I need to do my part to keep FJ's board culture where I like it. I have a tendency to just scroll past things that bother me and when I saw your post I decided I should speak up for a change. Along with many other members, I guess. Personally I am uncomfortable with speculating on abuse victims' identities at this time, but it's not disallowed, so carry on. I'm glad you came back! :)

Just a guess, but I'm thinking they would have to say something like they want the chief's emails from between x dates. People familiar with FOIA have said you need to be somewhat specific.

I file FOIA requests. You can be as broad or as specific as you like. You could request all of the police chief's emails. But then you'd get a response that the result is thousands of pages and you have to pay associated costs and would you like an estimate of the costs. You can proceed and pay the costs and get all the emails if that's what you want to do. But then you also have to read them all.

Requests are usually worded to get everything associated with X. So you could ask for everything Duggar related. You could ask for all the police chief's emails in a certain date range, but you risk missing something if the dates are of and you'd get a lot of unrelated emails. It's better to ask for all communications on a particular topic. In a case like this, my request would also say after a certain date.

From the beginning I've thought that In Touch has the follow-up interviews and transcripts from the original investigation because those would be included of you requested everything related to a particular investigation. I think that's where their additional stories are going to come from.

[Bethella]

snipped

I was one of those posters; sorry about that. I was feeling (still do) like I need to do my part to keep FJ's board culture where I like it. I have a tendency to just scroll past things that bother me and when I saw your post I decided I should speak up for a change. Along with many other members, I guess. Personally I am uncomfortable with speculating on abuse victims' identities at this time, but it's not disallowed, so carry on. I'm glad you came back! :)

I think halcionne put it better than I can, but I was also one of the people who objected to the speculation. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but my views haven't changed. The mods have since ruled that its okay so people can speculate away, but in my opinion that still doesn't make it right. These kids are in a household in crisis right now and they have no say in how this is playing out in both the media and in their home. Speculation on our part serves no purpose but our own entertainment. It won't help that specific child or the kids as a whole. It won't make their parents face justice. And it may well be damaging to the child in question- Can you imagine finding out that strangers on the internet speculated about horrific things happening to to you, true or not? We should be focusing on the adults who are culpable in this fiasco and let the authorities worry about protecting the kids.

[antwan]

The thing is that people have likely been calling DHS on the Duggars as long as they've had a show. I really doubt DHS is going to move on anything unless there's a very believable evidence or claims. Some random "do gooder" or "person who wants to see them burn" isn't going to have the information to make this a believable case; they're just going to say things that sound like rumors.

I have to disagree, just based on my own experiences as a foster parent for many years. I really don't think people have been calling DHS for as long as the Duggars have had a show. I'm not sure about AR, but in OH, a call to CPS requires a MANDATORY follow up (and time limited at that). So if people had been calling for years, CPS would have HAD to show up repeatedly, for years. Of course, AR may have more lenient laws.

[imjustasteph]

So, the funny thing with CPS is, while there is a rule that they have to follow up on everything, how firmly that rule is enforced seems to vary.

I'm no expert, but I've witnessed a few cases close to me, including my own mom being reported because one of my siblings, at 12 or 13 years old, climbed on the (one story, not steep) roof to retrieve his own frisbee, which the lady across the street thought was terribly dangerous. That one was investigated for months. My mom was ordered to get a babysitter (my 18 year old brother was at the house during the relevant hours, and my 17 year old sister during all but a few minutes when the smaller kids got home before she did, but that was the order nonetheless), was checked back up on repeatedly, etc.

On the other hand, a case I'm all-too-intimately familiar with in which there was physical abuse going on was reported and got a, "We don't actually go check unless you have pictures, because, you know, otherwise we don't know anything took place."

Some of that may be mandated reporter stuff -- the neighbor I mentioned was an ex-teacher, so maybe she already had a working relationship with CPS. Maybe she lied about what she told them. Maybe the caseworker that listened to the report about the physical abuse was lazy. Maybe the neighbor made it formal with paper and the other case could be ignored because it was never written down.

On the other hand, I know of an email regarding sexual abuse of a minor that was completely ignored, despite evidence.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal, and some of the stories I've collected are friend-of-a-friend, and thus not anything I'd ask anyone else to regard as evidence -- but taken collectively, it tells me, at least, that there isn't exactly smoothly-spread enforcement of the 'investigate all calls' rule.

As that goes, a case where a lot of the calls sound like cranks -- well, that might be the very case in which some would get ignored.

[Mama Mia]

I have to disagree, just based on my own experiences as a foster parent for many years. I really don't think people have been calling DHS for as long as the Duggars have had a show. I'm not sure about AR, but in OH, a call to CPS requires a MANDATORY follow up (and time limited at that). So if people had been calling for years, CPS would have HAD to show up repeatedly, for years. Of course, AR may have more lenient laws.

Ohio must have exceptionally overly reactionary laws if they have, and enforce, regulations that literally every report has to be followed by an in- person follow- up. :shock: . A fairly large number of calls received are clearly unfounded, right off the bat. A few are not just clearly " iffy" over- reactions by neighbors, ex's, kids themselves ( my mom won't let me go to a party -- not making it up I had a clients teen who actually made that call :lol: ) -- but completely bizarre "i swear my neighbor is an alien who is abducting children to take to their home planet " level of nuts. I can't imagine a CPS worker having to actually investigate that crap.

Here is an article that has a good breakdown of actual nationwide numbers of reports, how many are screened out initially, how many are investigated, how many are determined to be unfounded, etc. it's a good article because it has an easy chart from reliable sources -- I only skimmed, so if there is a pro- or anti- CPS slant -- that's not why I chose it. Overall about a third of reports are screened out without follow- up. According to this article --After investigation only about 20% end up becoming active cases with substantiated abuse or neglect, another 10-20% fall into categories where therevwas no substantiated abuse or neglect, but the family was eligible for some sort of supportive services.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ns/374809/

[LittleOleMe]

I have to disagree, just based on my own experiences as a foster parent for many years. I really don't think people have been calling DHS for as long as the Duggars have had a show. I'm not sure about AR, but in OH, a call to CPS requires a MANDATORY follow up (and time limited at that). So if people had been calling for years, CPS would have HAD to show up repeatedly, for years. Of course, AR may have more lenient laws.

My state has that as well. All calls made to CPS require a visit to the home, regardless of the accusation. And at one point - it may have changed but I'm not sure - it required an immediate visit and then a one month follow up.

[Mom-mouth]

So, the funny thing with CPS is, while there is a rule that they have to follow up on everything, how firmly that rule is enforced seems to vary.

I'm no expert, but I've witnessed a few cases close to me, including my own mom being reported because one of my siblings, at 12 or 13 years old, climbed on the (one story, not steep) roof to retrieve his own frisbee, which the lady across the street thought was terribly dangerous. That one was investigated for months. My mom was ordered to get a babysitter (my 18 year old brother was at the house during the relevant hours, and my 17 year old sister during all but a few minutes when the smaller kids got home before she did, but that was the order nonetheless), was checked back up on repeatedly, etc.

On the other hand, a case I'm all-too-intimately familiar with in which there was physical abuse going on was reported and got a, "We don't actually go check unless you have pictures, because, you know, otherwise we don't know anything took place."

Some of that may be mandated reporter stuff -- the neighbor I mentioned was an ex-teacher, so maybe she already had a working relationship with CPS. Maybe she lied about what she told them. Maybe the caseworker that listened to the report about the physical abuse was lazy. Maybe the neighbor made it formal with paper and the other case could be ignored because it was never written down.

On the other hand, I know of an email regarding sexual abuse of a minor that was completely ignored, despite evidence.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal, and some of the stories I've collected are friend-of-a-friend, and thus not anything I'd ask anyone else to regard as evidence -- but taken collectively, it tells me, at least, that there isn't exactly smoothly-spread enforcement of the 'investigate all calls' rule.

As that goes, a case where a lot of the calls sound like cranks -- well, that might be the very case in which some would get ignored.

We have a case here that I am just blown away over. Child is obviously suicidal in things that she says (I want to die. Maybe I should just walk in front of a truck) her dad refuses to let her go to therapy because she "might tell his secrets" and is making comments that make it sound like she is sexually abused by her father. NO ONE will investigate because dad and the cops and CPS are all buddy buddy.

I seriously am confused as to what they see as legitimate calls.

But my cat leaves a dead squirrel on my porch and CPS shows up for (and this isn't all of the list)

1) Allowing my children to play with dead animals

2) Not taking them to church

3) Not forcing them to wear eskimo suits in 60 degree weather

4) Letting them play in a creek (where they can catch the pneumonia. Not kidding)

and I get investigated? I don't get it. I don't understand CPS thinking at all.

[anjulibai]

I once called CPS because my cousin was being verbally and emotionally abused (and I suspected physically, too). I was (and still am) a mandated reporter, and it wasn't like I was just calling over some minor fighting between a teenager and a her dad; it was bad. I had expected CPS to take me seriously.

They told me that because my cousin was 15, she could just leave the home and go to a safe house. Huh? Wouldn't that make her a runaway? Well, yes, if her parents pressed for it, but if she goes to the safe house, they won't tell anyone she's there.

Okay then...

I've called CPS twice since then a couple of students for some definite physical abuse and was given the cold shoulder. It's been odd.

[lizbeth]

While I'm not glad to hear that CPS has been negligent in so many other instances than the ones I've seen myself, it is good to know there are other people who see that this kind of unethical crap goes on. Sometimes it seems like people don't believe the stories I've told about my dealings with both CPS and the police because they're so outrageous. I mean, I probably wouldn't believe them myself if I never had any dealings or only positive dealings with them.

Who would believe that CPS would tell a child that they won't do anything about the abuse she called in and reported unless her father, who refuses to talk to them, called in and reported it himself? And yet, that's exactly what happened to me. When I was somewhere around 14 years old, I went into the Hopeline online chat and told the coach what was going on. I found out YEARS later that there was a police report written on the conversation I had...but no one had ever come to check up on me. So Hopeline had reported the situation to my local police department, and then the police department documented what they said but never did anything about it. :angry-banghead:

[greycat]

Quick story of what happened to me first that I swear relates to this.

I was abused for many years. Then one morning after my mom beat the crap out of me where I had to go to school with marks and bruises all over me. I finally reported it to a teacher and the correct steps of contacting CPS were taken. I was so happy to have someone on my side and hopefully get out of this situation. I get home and my mother, stepdad, dad, and CPS were there. I sat down and the CPS worker looked at me a said that he has talked to my mother and that I am lying, there is no way this woman with a great reputation in the community for years would ever do this. My world crashed around me. I freaked out saying there are bruises all over me, whelps where I was hit with a board SHES LYING SHES LYING. All my mom said was See this is what I put up with. And CPS nodded.

Because my mom and her family were very well known, and even though there were cold hard facts and evidence of abuse nothing happened. Luckily my dad was there and was nope, she is coming to live with me. Best life a person could ask for from then on out.

I also know that this isn't how good CPS workers work. I had just awful experience in a small county where everyone knows everyone. Also a worker who just didn't care.

I say all of this because whatever kid the call was about I hope that just because of their celebrity family it isn't tossed to the side. I hope that the kid in question didn't call out of being scared and had to feel the wrath of their abuser later on. (I still feel them from my mother 15 years later emotionally) I hope there is a followup. As others have said, I can't imagine they would go out there just on hear say. It had to be something serious and reported by someone in the house, or someone close to the family.

[lizbeth]

Ugh. I feel like CPS workers really need some kind of training to help them spot abusers who are just really charismatic, influential, good liars, etc. When I was in 6th grade, my siblings and I were actually removed from our home and put into a shelter for a few months. The kicker was that the reason they removed us was my parents had a semi-violent fight one morning that resulted in the cops being called. So they wouldn't do anything in response to all of the times my father beat the shit out of us, but they were happy to take action the moment the parents hit each other. :roll:

Anyway, my point is, there was this one lady who worked at the shelter where they put us, and she HATED my father after talking to us about the way he treated us. Then she met him. Later that day, she literally said to me, "Your father is a very good looking man. He's so charming!" ...she was smitten with him from then on out and didn't believe he could hurt his kids. She's not the only social worker (I don't know if that was her actual title) he had ever manipulated into thinking he was a saint, but that time was especially upsetting because we had someone listening to us for once, and then she turned around in an instant.

[silverspoons]

I don't think there are any good guesses even about what is still happening with this case or not simply because DHS varies so much from state to state, city to city and even case worker to case worker. I would assume after years of experience a case worker might even judge cases differently after seeing so many of them and the outcome(my assumption being that new case workers might open cases quicker then experience ones).

The story I have that I will never be able to shake shows the differences between states and hits on the subject of "underage teen behaviors". I had known a family, parents in their 30's with 3 kids. The mother had struggled with depression over the years and the husband was super supportive. One night the husband announced in tears his wife had left him for a 19 year guy. He has still hoping to get her back and save his family. He tried everything but she filed for divorce and moved in with the 19 year old. They got joint custody but the kids were with the father about 90% of the time. The daughter started complaining that the 19 year boyfriend was always coming in when she was taking a shower by accident and liked to snap the back of her underwear when she bent over. The father found out that the boyfriend had sexual abused kids in his neighborhood when he was an under aged teen. CPS was called and interview the one child and the boyfriend was charged and later pleaded no guilty to lewd acts with a child. Important to note the judge that divorced the couple also heard the case of the lewd acts. The kids were still allowed to see the mom but it said the boyfriend must not be present. Easy way around that? Have the same judge that divorced you, heard the lewd acts case, marry you and the boyfriend a few weeks later! Now the he is stepdad somehow CPS let the kids come stay with them and they quickly moved out of state. The father started trying to obtain full custody.

About a month later we got a phone call if my husband could help the father do some quick remodel work to a house he had just bought. It needed to be done in 3 days because he was getting full custody and the mom's rights looked like they would be terminated. CPS wanted to make sure he had a house ready for the kids. Turns out the new husband had sexual abused all 3 kids and CPS in the state they had moved to was livid that our state's CPS had had done little to nothing and that the same judge had heard been involved in convicting a man and then marrying him to the mother of the victim. The new husband is now rotting in prison for what looks like at least 30 years. The ex wife spent several years in prison because she didn't stop the abuse. The kids are with their dad now and still struggling to get over the abuse. It also shows the very tough issue of underage offenses because this guy had underage offenses and without having to register no one knew when he was 19 until it was too late.

It goes to show how different CPS can be and the legal system. It is always said how lax our legal system is here, they care more about collecting fines then jail time. My SIL was in an abusive marriage for years and nothing ever happened to her husband. It made me so mad. Then one day he chased her in her car threatening her. She drove over the state line to AZ and he was arrested there and was sent to sweat his butt off in the AZ heat in that tent city:) and she got her divorce.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I have to disagree, just based on my own experiences as a foster parent for many years. I really don't think people have been calling DHS for as long as the Duggars have had a show. I'm not sure about AR, but in OH, a call to CPS requires a MANDATORY follow up (and time limited at that). So if people had been calling for years, CPS would have HAD to show up repeatedly, for years. Of course, AR may have more lenient laws.

I think there's a probably a difference in how families in the public eye are handled just because they have to weed through the crazies. Not saying it's right, but you can't show up every time someone calls and says something like "Jill and Derick sacrificed their newborn baby in a satanic ritual!" (A claim that was made on this board during the Great Dilly Dally.)

There are a lot of people who form really obsessive behaviors when it comes to famous people. Sometimes it's obsessive idolization, sometimes it's obsessively trying to take them down using whatever means possible. A family this large with a questionable belief system known for less than friendly ways of dealing with children is likely to attract a ridiculous amount of those people who would randomly report them. Not to mention, they purposefully go out on a regular basis and piss people off, which is going to drive even more people to want to take them down.

DHS probably spends a lot of time vetting these crazies.

[dianapavelovna]

In the state I work in, not every single call is investigated. Some are screened out for various reasons. So I looked up AR's hotline.

What Happens When There is a Report of Child Maltreatment?

When the Division of Children and Family Services (DCFS) gets a report of suspected child maltreatment, Arkansas law says that DCFS or the Arkansas State Police Family Protection Unit will assess the report.

humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/Pages/ChildProtectiveServices.aspx#Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting

So it seems they have a similar process. I imagine any ridiculous calls (e.g. "there was sexual abuse in the Duggar family 10 years ago, I bet there is abuse now too!!!!") are screened out and not followed up on.

[justbecause]

:)

Maybe In Touch has a pair of binoculars and is camped out at the Duggars and the police station. 'Oooooo. Someone just hit send in their conputer! File an foia report! Someone's on the phone at their front door. I only saw them hit 3 keys. File an fioa report!'

Whatever credibility In Touch may have gained by breaking this story is going to quickly wane by doing these nitpicky fall out stories. I'm starting to believe they have nothing else to say. Leave them alone or you WILL turn them into matyrs.

I really don't see them turning into martyrs at all. Maybe in their own little dylusional world.

I see no problem with the FOIA reports. The family put all kinds of bigoted hate out there, maybe it's karma.

[lolo3300]

Thankfully, we don't have to go out on every report called in. There's no way we could keep up with it. My co-workers and I were surprised at how awkward the worker sounded on the phone. With high profile cases, management usually wants the best workers on the case.

[antwan]

So, the funny thing with CPS is, while there is a rule that they have to follow up on everything, how firmly that rule is enforced seems to vary.

Well, not only that ^^^ but it's also VERY selective in terms of objectivity. Abuse going on in the Amish culture? (and there's plenty of it). Turn a blind eye because, well, that would be complicated to step into. Abuse and/or neglect going on in parts of Appalachia? Well,...turn a blind eye because, well, you know....that's just the way it is and we cant help much there. Abuse going on in native American culture? Well, again, that's a sensitive issue (and I get it, it IS, but those children deserve the same protections from abuse and neglect as all others.) Some families are devastated by issues of abuse and neglect, to the point of losing their children (I know; I adopted them), while others' children are not "worthy" of protection because it's just too complicated, or worse (CPS isn't interested in getting involved "there".)

It's an upside down MESS.

[justbecause]

I'm with you, NoneandDone! Maybe it's because I am a CPS worker, but if an investigator showed up on my door, I'd let 'em in and show 'em where the kids sleep, the food in the fridge, tell 'em to take the kids in another room and chat, whatever. If I were really concerned after that visit about anything the worker said or did or the allegations that were disclosed, then I might make a few calls.

I agree that the wording the worker used in the 911 call seemed awkward when read, but listening to it, it didn't sound that way. It also sounded like they cut off the part where he gave the address. I seriously doubt he just said, "Duggar family home" for the address with no clarification. I think he stated "Duggar family home" to make it clear the site is a residence, and then proceeded to give the address, which Today (appropriately) cut off. It sounded to me like it was not his first time making a call like that.

I can't help but wonder about the nature of the report and what went down after the police were called (did they give access to the kid? what reason did they give for refusing access to DHS? etc.). I hope all the kids are safe. I imagine there's enough upheaval in their lives at the moment with all the drama and fallout from the molestation revelations and publicity.

The Duggars 'don't cooperate with gov/agencies' is really backfiring on them. I do think that one good thing that is coming out of all this is just how their trying to manipulate situations in the past and then their current difficulties we see a realistic view of how their cult and beliefs really affect a family's lives.

Their beliefs and the way they conduct their lives are so 'out there' and I'm glad that is coming to light. Their so called 'Christian' beliefs are not true Christian actions that follow the bible at all. These are a fringe group that call themselves Christians and I for one am glad that is coming to light. They are a terrible example of Christianity and that hurts those who are Christians.

[moriah]

I think halcionne put it better than I can, but I was also one of the people who objected to the speculation. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but my views haven't changed. The mods have since ruled that its okay so people can speculate away, but in my opinion that still doesn't make it right. These kids are in a household in crisis right now and they have no say in how this is playing out in both the media and in their home. Speculation on our part serves no purpose but our own entertainment. It won't help that specific child or the kids as a whole. It won't make their parents face justice. And it may well be damaging to the child in question- Can you imagine finding out that strangers on the internet speculated about horrific things happening to to you, true or not? We should be focusing on the adults who are culpable in this fiasco and let the authorities worry about protecting the kids.

It really doesn't matter which kid was the one they were concerned about. There were some gnarly pictures going around awhile back about one of the younger girls with what appeared to be a severe allergic reaction, but since one of her eyes was swollen it could have looked a little like the injuries I got from other kids beating me up at school (which again, while not likely to be the case here, is another way kids can end up with disturbing-looking photos that aren't evidence of child abuse). It could be someone concerned about the 2006 mention of a "rod" (though that is not automatically child maltreatment in Arkansas, whereas kicking, punching, etc are) in the police report. It could be a routine follow-up related to the old DHS investigation. Or it could have been a completely spurious allegation like the one that caused the Texas raid of the YFZ Ranch -- despite the fact pretty hideous child abuse was in fact going on there, the call they investigated was determined to be fraudulent, and made by a woman with severe mental health issues.

None of those reasons really matter. Whatever reason DHS went out there, they were doing what they were required to do by law -- investigate any allegation of child abuse or neglect. If the Duggars had allowed the investigators access to the child (which would not have required entry into the residence, since the reports indicate they were concerned about one specific child, they could have had that child walk outside and speak to the investigators) this call would never have been on Washington County's call-out records online, and so InTouch would never have sent a FOIA request in for the 911 call. The Duggar family's choice to not cooperate with the investigation was what directly led to this call and it being made public.

Part of me does suspect that this is regarding some new allegation, as the 2006 police reports give a different street number on Arbor Acres (and call it Road rather than Avenue) -- both numbers have been the 911 addresses for the same house at various times, but the 548 address mentioned in the call (and the use of "avenue") seems to be a modern version of the address. The old DHS case file would likely still have them at "600 Arbor Acres Rd", not "548 Arbor Acres Avenue".

It really does suck for these kids -- but it wasn't our greed and/or desire to spread the teachings of Bill Gothard that put these kids in the media spotlight, and ensured that we know their names and so much of their life stories. Part of me wishes they'd ban children from reality television entirely. How is Alana Thompson going to feel when she grows up and looks at the shows her parents used to make money off of her? Even with the best messages from home promoting good body image and acceptance of size, those shows could very easily be eating-disorder fodder for her in her teenage years. While the damage may be more subtle without divorces or abuse allegations being made public, these children are already being exploited for our entertainment by the show existing at all.

It's obvious a lot of the draw on these shows is the cute kids -- I watched a few recent episodes and their interviews with the younger ones (including subtitles if they aren't speaking clearly) are almost always showing how cute kids can be with their thoughts and such. But we can get our fill of cute from "Too Cute" without having to watch human babies/children -- let the pets be the ones we ooh and aww over their adorableness, not kids who have no ability to decline their 15 minutes (or 10 years) of fame.

[justbecause]

They are done. While they were telling Megyn Kelly how cooperative they were regarding Josh, they denied DHS entry into their home. It doesn't matter that they had the legal right to do so; their actions highlight their lies and hypocrisy. Refusing access also reflects poorly on Jana and Jill, who praised their parents' handling of the Josh situation and supposedly told them to fully cooperate with authorities. I think even TLC would have to realize that putting the Duggars back on the air would hurt the network far more than any gain in leghumper viewership.

I think it says it all that they are no longer talking about a spin-off. The Megyn Kelley interview was the guage and it doesn't seem to have been good. Too bad, so sad. NOT.