New DHS Probe

[paganhomeschooler]

This does not add up for me, either. Above and beyond the fact that there are indeed avenues to take to appeal placement that require some basic testing and intervention, the medicine issue is unbelievable. Schools could be held liable if child gets sick. I have never heard of a school that won't administer or allow an older student to self administer vital medicine. Schools have nurses. That is a big part of its job.

And paganhomeschooler, I do know that schools often push diagnosis on kids because they can offer more services to a kid with an actual diagnosis. With all the people out there trying to play the rules, there has to be some sort litmus test. You probably just ran into someone who was not terribly creative in how she applied the rules.

I didn't even think about the medicine standpoint. Very true. I know some schools are stricter than others, but as long as a medication is in its original packaging and a form has been signed by the physician, there should be no reason why a school wouldn't allow the medication. A good physician will know that and make sure a strongly worded letter of medical necessity is sent, as well.

What we have run into is, frankly, a bitch. :D She likes to be a problem. The school psych we've gotten this year is new and inept. She has no clue what she's doing. The special ed director (the bitch) for the district is the one who specifically said the words to me "ADD, not ADHD" which is illegal, and she damn well knows it. I could even see inept school psych stiffen up when those words came out of her mouth. She has a case of superiority complex, and my lowly, peon, parent self can't possibly know my own child. :roll: This was after she had dug in her heels and refused to do ANYTHING else for my child. I said fine, I'll be pursuing private dx when insurance goes through and due process, then. She started offering extra testing and throwing out the ADD thing at that point. That's when my advocate said, no, you're not going to these meetings alone any more, and we will get her the help we need together.

We had a followup meeting Monday. In addition to the special study hall they offered after I said the words due process, they were supposed to change her schedule that day to an inclusion class and offered to reconvene 6 weeks after school started to review testing and her current functioning and were very helpful (with my advocate there). Of course, bitchy special ed admin threw in my face (again) that I never came to her with my concerns about my child not getting the supports we were promised last year. Well, since I had never dealt with her about this child and had only spoken to her once when we were working on placement for my severely dyslexic child to be reintegrated into public school when we moved here, how was I supposed to know? Most people prefer you go through their minions. I had mentioned it to all of my daughter's teachers, inept school psych, school psych at the other school, and 2 guidance counselors, so I had assumed I had gone through the proper channels. I'm definitely less impressed with the middle school than I am with the high school or elementary.

Oh well. Bitch pissed off the wrong mom!! lol If she wants me to be a pain in her ass, I will be a pain in her ass. I will call her every time anything is off. Thankfully, I have done my research and I know my rights, and I'm not going to let my kid slip through the cracks anymore. (She has less severe presumed dyslexia, and she has a photographic memory. She is able to read adequately because she has memorized the words. They say her fluency is in the superior range, which I say is bullshit, because I listen to her read out loud all the time, and my first grader is much more fluent than she is, so I don't know what they're really measuring. She can't spell or write to save her life. She can't punctuate or capitalize. She failed 3 semesters of math this year. But, the Woodcock Johnson says she's average, so she doesn't qualify for services. :evil:)

[Mama Mia]

Pagenhomeschooler --- I just had a couple of questions / comments. As background I have one child with very severe ADHD, and have dealt with a wide range of educational officials ranging from wonderful to appallingly abusive.

I'm wondering why you said it was illegal that the school said your child might have an ADHD diagnosis? I've never heard of it being illegal for them to suggest that. Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate for anyone who doesn't have the right credential and hasn't examined your child to say that is definitely the issue - but is there a law that says they can't suggest possibilities ? Just curious.

Also, just a note about " reading comprehension" and where the disconnect might be. When the school district is using that phrase they are likely basing it on the child's answers to materials they have read. They aren't, generally going to base it on how well they do reading out loud - which could differ dramatically from what they understand when reading silently. And spelling and writing can be completely illegible / incomprehensible - but the child reads wells above grade level, understands what they read and have an excellent vocabulary. Two of my now adult children had this issue. One of them is the child ( now adult ) with severe ADHD. His reading comprehension and vocabulary scores would be grades ahead of his actual grade. That can be one ( of many ) real issues with standardized testing, especially at the younger grades. If all of the questions are multiple choice the child might test just fine but be completely unable to express themselves through writing.

[paganhomeschooler]

Pagenhomeschooler --- I just had a couple of questions / comments. As background I have one child with very severe ADHD, and have dealt with a wide range of educational officials ranging from wonderful to appallingly abusive.

I'm wondering why you said it was illegal that the school said your child might have an ADHD diagnosis? I've never heard of it being illegal for them to suggest that. Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate for anyone who doesn't have the right credential and hasn't examined your child to say that is definitely the issue - but is there a law that says they can't suggest possibilities ? Just curious.

Also, just a note about " reading comprehension" and where the disconnect might be. When the school district is using that phrase they are likely basing it on the child's answers to materials they have read. They aren't, generally going to base it on how well they do reading out loud - which could differ dramatically from what they understand when reading silently. And spelling and writing can be completely illegible / incomprehensible - but the child reads wells above grade level, understands what they read and have an excellent vocabulary. Two of my now adult children had this issue. One of them is the child ( now adult ) with severe ADHD. His reading comprehension and vocabulary scores would be grades ahead of his actual grade. That can be one ( of many ) real issues with standardized testing, especially at the younger grades. If all of the questions are multiple choice the child might test just fine but be completely unable to express themselves through writing.

I've actually read the bit about the ADD/ADHD for years. They can suggest there may be attention issues, but they are not physicians, and ADD/ADHD is a medical diagnosis. They are not permitted to suggest a medical diagnosis because they are not physicians. I don't know the specific law off the top of my head. I do know they very, VERY carefully worded it when my advocate came. Half of my friends/family are in education, and most have special ed degrees. One of my friends I've been bouncing things off of also said that was illegal, as did her other intervention colleagues and their head of special ed. A school may not suggest a diagnosis.

Yeah, I am NOT a fan of standardized testing. She does very well with comprehension. We've got the actual scores for fluency on the ETR they gave us, and it says her score (with grading scale provided) is in the superior range. I really don't think the school psych knows what she's doing. The paperwork I got had her credentials as SLP, anyway. I'm not really sure what all training she really has. My daughter will be going into 7th. We've been trying to get her on an IEP for years. They wanted to put her on one in 1st grade, but we wanted to do more intense work with her before we labeled her. Our biggest parenting regret. :-( When we reconvene, we will be pushing for at least a 504. I won't stop until she gets something that is going to help her for the long haul. She can't keep going on how she is. It wasn't a big deal in elementary if she failed a spelling test, but she's not going to be able to do the work required as she's getting further into middle school and high school. She is just not capable of producing that kind of written work.

[Sscape]

All I can think of is Michelle in her baby doll voice, sitting on one of the younger kids, beating the crap out of them and saying, "It's for your own good."

:angry-banghead:

[Mama Mia]

I've actually read the bit about the ADD/ADHD for years. They can suggest there may be attention issues, but they are not physicians, and ADD/ADHD is a medical diagnosis. They are not permitted to suggest a medical diagnosis because they are not physicians. I don't know the specific law off the top of my head. I do know they very, VERY carefully worded it when my advocate came. Half of my friends/family are in education, and most have special ed degrees. One of my friends I've been bouncing things off of also said that was illegal, as did her other intervention colleagues and their head of special ed. A school may not suggest a diagnosis.

Yeah, I am NOT a fan of standardized testing. She does very well with comprehension. We've got the actual scores for fluency on the ETR they gave us, and it says her score (with grading scale provided) is in the superior range. I really don't think the school psych knows what she's doing. The paperwork I got had her credentials as SLP, anyway. I'm not really sure what all training she really has. My daughter will be going into 7th. We've been trying to get her on an IEP for years. They wanted to put her on one in 1st grade, but we wanted to do more intense work with her before we labeled her. Our biggest parenting regret. :-( When we reconvene, we will be pushing for at least a 504. I won't stop until she gets something that is going to help her for the long haul. She can't keep going on how she is. It wasn't a big deal in elementary if she failed a spelling test, but she's not going to be able to do the work required as she's getting further into middle school and high school. She is just not capable of producing that kind of written work.

Good luck with getting the help she needs. I do have to say , as possible encouragement, that with current technology the ability to physically write well, on paper with ink :) , is becoming less and less important. Both in the higher school grades and out in the world. My daughter who struggled horribly with spelling and writing legibly now is an adult who works in an office environment and does just fine. Everything is done on the computer. Even in high school pretty much everything could be done on the computer and printed. The main issue was getting her spelling to a level where spell check would work. That really should be a specific skill taught for people who can't spell - including distinguishing which words were incorrect even though spell check said they were fine.

[nelliebelle1197]

Paganhomeschooler, is your advocate a lawyer? My nonprofit has lawyers dedicated to educational issues just like this and some legal services may not have income limits for kids with disabilities. A social work advocate is fine, but sometimes a strongly worded demand letter from an education attorney can make a huge difference. They know you are serious and ready to litigate.

[ShepherdontheRock]

All I can think of is Michelle in her baby doll voice, sitting on one of the younger kids, beating the crap out of them and saying, "It's for your own good."

:angry-banghead:

Or even one of her actual babies...I always felt there was something creepy about her baby voice...

[ADoyle90815]

Or even one of her actual babies...I always felt there was something creepy about her baby voice...

I've felt the same, that there was something creepy about her baby voice. I've already had one suspicion confirmed of creepiness, with the molestation allegations and the coverup that took place.

[LilahBelle]

I've felt the same, that there was something creepy about her baby voice. I've already had one suspicion confirmed of creepiness, with the molestation allegations and the coverup that took place.

I read somewhere else that she has an awful temper.. that baby voice is a put-on.

Those kids have been so f**ked up they are beyond redemption.

[apple1]

...Those kids have been so f**ked up they are beyond redemption.

No, no, no, and no.

Where there is life there is hope. You have no idea who (and when) will get out and heal. (Yes, it is possible, and people have healed from far worse).

I hate statements like the one in the post I quoted here.

[moriah]

But public school is not used to educationally, emotionally and physically abuse children. Homesechooling without regulation is. Oversight and regulation is not a way of homeschoolers "pay". For someone who is asking for an open mind, yours is awfully closed on this.

As with all rules, there's an exception, and I'm it.

My mother homeschooled me for two years, what ordinarily would have been my 8th and 9th grades. For whatever reason (maybe it was being a ginger, or having thick glasses, or liking to talk to adults more than other kids, or using words they didn't know.... hah, yeah, no wonder) I was consistently targeted by bullies, and it caused pretty severe psychological problems. I was in therapy at age 8 because I told some neighbor kids I would rather die than go to school the next day. Changing schools just made it worse, and while I have lost count of the various little injuries (black eyes, breaking my glasses, etc) I got a broken arm and two concussions all in one year (all from being either shoved into metal playground equipment, or having my head beaten against said metal playground equipment).

Halfway through 5th grade, I went on a "school strike" when the officials in the new school had a policy of punishing both bully and victim equally .. and not supervising the kids when they were being punished, so I got attacked in the detention that I got for being attacked. It was the one time my mother ever used corporal punishment on me -- she was raising me by herself, and my refusal to get ready meant she was risking being late to catch the bus to work. She told me to be ready in 10 minutes or she'd spank me, I told her not to waste the time and just go ahead, and she got a switch (so there's no doubt my mouthiness was a factor in the result). Alas, she never knew what my grandmother had learned from giving me very light peachtree switchings at a young age -- I'm a ginger with dermatographia. She was also so angry she wasn't really looking at what she was doing. Me, being a stubborn little twit, had already felt a great deal of pain from bullies at school so a switching was nothing, and I had decided from the start I would not make a sound. When she looked down, the welts the initial strikes created had been irritated by the sharper parts of the switch and the skin was broken. (I won, she couldn't send me to school -- she worked for DHS, she knew what could happen.) She spent the next 3 days trying to figure out what to do, and finally ended up sending me to a private school for GT kids for awhile. Wasn't long before we ran out of money and they ran out of scholarship, and I'd had some breathing room from being tortured 40 hours a week to get some self-confidence.

[EDIT TO CLARIFY, just for the record, my mother did not really hit me very hard at all. Dermatographia, however, is the tendency of some people's skin to get essentially hives from pressure or scratching of the skin. Peachtree switches do not ordinarily break the skin, but they are scratchy as all get out no matter how much force you use. Granny told Mom later she'd seen my skin react to hardly any scratch from it at all when I was younger, which is why she phased out corporal punishment. The hives, though, did not react well to being scratched. It looked far worse than it really was.]

The last straw came for Mom when the 7th grade science teacher in the public school I had to attend had a nervous breakdown and students started injuring me in class (she couldn't control the classroom at all). By then I'd developed a fairly decent way of handling it when I was targeted in the halls or the outdoor lunch area -- if someone started threatening me with physical violence, I would demand that if they wanted to hit me so much for them to go ahead and do it right then and there... in as loud of a voice as I could manage. in my experience, playground aides were extremely unobservant when it came to persistent bullying, but they did eventually notice when enough kids were crowded around a disturbance like that. That tactic did not work well at all to deal with violence actually in the classroom under a teacher's nose. Due to my rather unique dress style (I actually preferred to dress a little like a prairie muffin, except I avoided denim -- it was more an imitation of Stevie Nicks, but without all the black), long hair, and cross necklace, I guess the vice-principal thought we were fundies. His pulling out his pocket copy of the New Testament in the conference with my mother, with the suggestion that I should "pray for God to give [me] the strength to put up with it", was met by my mother's very Protestant (though not at all Biblical) "Well, God helps those who help themselves."

We'd just met people who homeschooled that year, when my father had sent me a 1200 baud modem and I started calling local BBSes (and had finally found peers who accepted me, even if they were mostly 10+ years older -- though I was also able to befriend their teenage kids). Mom was reluctant because she was a full-time working single parent, though the fact the band director planned to move me to piccolo for 8th grade helped. ;) It really was the best decision for *me*, in my own unique case.

And it was not without challenge -- there is a difference between an education sufficient to pass a GED, and one that is designed to prepare you for a math or science degree in college. Many of the texts were anemic, more boring than even my public school books were, because there was little "meat" to the knowledge being given. The worst curriculum we found came from the makers of Switched On Schoolhouse, FWIW. Bob Jones University Press was a little better for history -- though they spent a great deal of time discussing the religious influences on Manifest Destiny, which after a public school education was rather ... unique. We ended up going with correspondence courses from secular universities for hard science and math, copies of the book lists from the public schools in the district for advanced English/Literature (we got through the reading lists for 8th, 9th, and 10th in the first year, and 11-12th in the second), and my mom still had most of her books from her bachelors in Sociology for western Civ (though we stayed with BJUP for American history). Beyond that I had free reign to choose which of her texts or what sounded interesting for electives, and while I was not tested she did have most her notes and even a few tapes of lectures for her intro-to-whatever classes (she went back to college late and realized people would pay for copies of past year's notes and tests, so she kept all of hers).

Yes, that part was self-directed "unschooling", really, but my credits for math and science from University of Nebraska at Lincoln and Duke University were transferable back to public school when, after looking for a way to get an actual accredited diploma since I was going to be too young to take the GED without special permission most likely (though since my Algebra 2 had been a C and I didn't feel like I understood it all enough to go straight on into trig, I asked if they'd add in the Algebra 2 test to my other equivalency tests just to make sure I got it all... and I hadn't -- still, I got Algebra 1 and Geometry in two years, so I didn't truly fall behind). The accredited homeschooling programs were few and far between, and all very expensive, back in the mid-90's. After two years of homeschooling, I had enough credits to enter as a senior (skipping two grades), but the guidance counselor pointed out that I would likely do very well in the National Merit scholarship competition, which is only available to 11th graders taking the PSAT. The high school had a lot of AP classes, and by entering as a junior and taking mostly AP courses senior year I could save money on college and get most of my first-year courses out of the way. So I only skipped one.

Fortunately, kids are much less vicious in high school. Or maybe it was that I fell in with the goth crowd and had a close male friend with not only issues with anyone who fucked with his friends, but issues himself (he threw a desk across the room when he learned that a guy had hit one of his female friends that said dude was dating). I know one other girl who grew up in my city's high schools about 8 years after I did, who also experienced severe physical bullying from other females, with similar issues with the district's policy/lack thereof to deal with those issues. I entered college just before turning 17, with a full-tuition scholarship thanks to the National Merit competition. :)

Not every child is destined for college, though -- some people are geniuses at engineering, others at repairing engines, and both skills are highly marketable. Many who are making tons of money in computers now don't have a degree (or at least didn't when they got started). In fact, the guy I was engaged to when we were in high school/college had went to school hoping to get a bachelors in CompSci. He learned that there was little you could actually do with the bachelors, and most people who went for their masters or doctorate ended up teaching. He dropped out and studied all the certification books himself (the schools that teach the certification materials are really a waste of money, but if you can pass the tests yourself, they aren't expensive and pretty up your resume) -- after seeing another one of our friends who elected to take a year "break" before starting college get a few certs and land a $40k job. Heavy equipment operation certifications are another vocational path that is pointed out to kids in our state if they enter any of the programs designed to help those who aren't doing well enough in regular high school to get their GED and also get some vocational training they can use immediately. Lots of girls in those programs get their CNAs, start working, and eventually get the money to enter nursing school.

I dislike the "all homeschooling is bad" argument as much as I do the "Public schools are evil and are trying to brainwash our kids into being gay pagan Muslims" shtick that often fills homeschooler groups. (When we went to the first "book fair" at the local church for the homeschoolers, I was looking at the texts and making faces, while Mom was talking to some of the moms. After maybe 10 minutes, she came over, asked me if I'd found anything interesting, I said no, she said "Good, let's go home". I think they kind of scared her.) There are some children who will greatly benefit from being homeschooled, and some who will be harmed by it (either educational or social neglect).

My sister understood where I came from, but when she came over to help tutor me on my Algebra (Mom had Geometry down, but Algebra wasn't her thing) she said she'd have probably either goofed off watching soaps all day or gone crazy from not having anybody to talk to. I couldn't leave the house during the day (juvenile curfew during the school year) so Mom said I had a choice -- I could study during the day, or when she got home. ;) I was also responsible for the laundry and dishes, and I was to have dinner on the table and all my assignments completed for the day when she got home. We ate supper and talked about the work I'd done and was to do the next day, Then I was free to leave the house -- either to see neighbors or friends I'd met online (the older teenagers on there had cars, after Mom met their parents and the kids she was generally okay with me leaving with them). She graded assignments after supper and did the week's lesson plans on the weekends. Another way I was really not the typical kid.

Too much regulation limits the flexibility that allows the kid who wants to go to medical school to get a hard science education, prepare the computer technicians to not only manage machines but their users as well (without turning into the BOFH), and lets the kid who doesn't care at all why Manifest Destiny caused so much social inequality in this country but could rebuild a carburetor at 14 the ability to get the hands-on training that will allow them to make money faster than the kid in medical school ever will. But it's exactly flexibility I'm advocating -- on the part of parents who want to impose their brainwashing (whether secular or religious) on their children and too often fail to recognize what is best for the individual kid (saying that "all kids need the socialization" is just as bad of brainwashing, because no, sometimes it's exactly that socialization that is keeping a kid from getting an education in the first place). But if the government is willing to give a religious exemption to Amish children who attend the traditional schoolhouses when it comes to compulsory education beyond the 8th grade... i think case law likely leans toward letting parents keep religiously brainwashing their kids insofar as their educations, even if it does qualify as educational neglect.

[SoHiDaisy]

I'm not sure if this has been posted but In Touch has the police report for this incident. I think they may have just released it.

[mrs]

Could you post the link?

[singsingsing]

From what I can see all they have on their website is what came out yesterday... a call for service and the fact that according to the Tontitown Police it's a current active investigation: intouchweekly.com/posts/child-services-investigation-into-duggars-continues-as-they-remain-silent-61236

Apparently they were only on scene for ~15 minutes.

[MisUndrstd]

From what I can see all they have on their website is what came out yesterday... a call for service and the fact that according to the Tontitown Police it's a current active investigation: intouchweekly.com/posts/child-services-investigation-into-duggars-continues-as-they-remain-silent-61236

Apparently they were only on scene for ~15 minutes.

Did they close the investigation, did the report say?

[Terrier99]

Someone posted this on Josh's Facebook Page:

A few gems from the book Michelle references in how to raise her kids. The book is called To Train Up A Child, Michelle Duggar has spoken rather highly of it. This is the kind of environment her children grow up in.

"If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, wait a moment, lecture again, and again spank him until it's obvious he's totally broken."(TTUAC, p59)

"Switch him 8-10 times on his bare legs or bottom. While waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If his crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If his crying is still defiant, protesting, and other than a response to pain, spank him again. If this is the first time he's come up against someone tougher than he is, it may take awhile...if you stop before he is voluntarily submissive, you have confirmed to him the value and effectiveness of a screaming protest!" (TTUAC p80)

"If you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he has surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring, and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally...A general rule is to continue the disciplinary action until the child has surrendered." (TTUAC p46)

Conquered??????!!!!!!! You have to break his will???? What the hell kind of world for a child is this?????!!!!!

[CorruptionInc.]

Does the call for service mean that the Duggars called the Police to come to them?

I am not familiar with US law and terms, and even then can you even tell if it was the Duggars calling?

[singsingsing]

1. 'Did they close the investigation?' - the investigation was active when In Touch obtained a copy of the call for service (I may be using the wrong term, but that's what it would be called here) - it could have been closed since then, or it could still be ongoing. No idea.

2. 'Does the call for service mean that the Duggars called the Police to come to them?' - No, DHS called. The caller is listed as 'WC DHS' and the remarks state: "CALLER NEEDS POLICE ASSISTANCE CHECKING TO SEE IF A CHILD IS SAFE AND THE SECURITY GUARD WON'T LET THEM IN."

[justbecause]

Fundies: destroying hopes, dreams, and the will to live since the dawn of time. :angry-banghead:

But hopefully, from this scandal, more people are now educated to this lifestyle and what it teaches. I am hoping that people who know more will make better decisions and that some of the people that are using these methods will realize that this is harmful. I hope that it starts conversations and changes minds.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

But hopefully, from this scandal, more people are now educated to this lifestyle and what it teaches. I am hoping that people who know more will make better decisions and that some of the people that are using these methods will realize that this is harmful. I hope that it starts conversations and changes minds.

Not likely. Most people don't care about the Duggars. Most leghumpers refuse to acknowledge anything bad about them, even if it's been confirmed. Pretty much h everyone else already knows what's going on in their cult.

[FiddleDD]

I really wish they would find out more about the DHS investigation.

[albanuadh_1]

According to liberalamerica.org, DHS takes about 45 days even if nothing is found untoward. That would be the middle of July and doubt TLC would want to film during that mess.