Bates 30: Season 11 in the Can and Cancelled. What's UP with that?

[Thorns]

On 1/30/2022 at 2:18 PM, Tiny Bubbles said:

That certainly is a small Canadian flag …

 

Well, the snail did obviously quite sensibly hide. Probably both from the cold and the company. 

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It was funny!  After all these years I still can't explain FJ to my family!

No one in my family or among my IRL friends knows anything about my FJ family and interest in fundies.  Especially not my moderately fundie sister.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

No one in my family or among my IRL friends knows anything about my FJ family and interest in fundies.  Especially not my moderately fundie sister.

Mine either except my kids, and they couldn't care less outside of referring to people are as my imaginary friends.  

[mango_fandango]

Once, ages ago, I showed my brother the photo of Gary’s pink weeny gravy on the first page of the first thread. This was entirely out of context, I hadn’t said anything about Bro Gary or anything. 
He looked and said “that is some fucked up shit.” Too true, too true.

[Sarcastically spinster]

I'm not as familiar with how it played out in the Bates' circles, but within VF, there was a huge neo-Confederate flavor to their view on history.  I remember arguing with friends who saw Lincoln as a tyrant, who believed that it truly was just about states' rights and not about slavery at all.  To be fair, they didn't see it as states' rights to engage in slavery, it was about centralization vs decentralization of government.  That slavery was the reason that was such a big deal didn't register for a lot of them.  Nor did it register that the fugitive slave act was a massive violation of states' rights.  

I have one friend that was raised being taught that slavery was actually a good thing because it meant the slaves heard the gospel.  R.L. Dabney's slavery apologism was basically gospel in those circles.  I can't tell you how many kids I knew who grew up in VF or VF-adjacent circles who were legitimately clueless about this, believed the north was guilty of revisionist history after the war and that the south were the true heroes, and who didn't even question it until after they got out of the cult.  They wouldn't call it the Civil War (because that emphasized the united country aspect of it and presented it as treason), they'd call it The War Between the States because that emphasized the individual sovereignty of states and fit the narrative of Lincoln as tyrant.  

Most of them now have a drastically different perspective on it.  Turns out when you leave cults you start questioning how much else you've been lied to on.  

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

I'm not as familiar with how it played out in the Bates' circles, but within VF, there was a huge neo-Confederate flavor to their view on history.  I remember arguing with friends who saw Lincoln as a tyrant, who believed that it truly was just about states' rights and not about slavery at all.  To be fair, they didn't see it as states' rights to engage in slavery, it was about centralization vs decentralization of government.  That slavery was the reason that was such a big deal didn't register for a lot of them.  Nor did it register that the fugitive slave act was a massive violation of states' rights.  

I have one friend that was raised being taught that slavery was actually a good thing because it meant the slaves heard the gospel.  R.L. Dabney's slavery apologism was basically gospel in those circles.  I can't tell you how many kids I knew who grew up in VF or VF-adjacent circles who were legitimately clueless about this, believed the north was guilty of revisionist history after the war and that the south were the true heroes, and who didn't even question it until after they got out of the cult.  They wouldn't call it the Civil War (because that emphasized the united country aspect of it and presented it as treason), they'd call it The War Between the States because that emphasized the individual sovereignty of states and fit the narrative of Lincoln as tyrant.  

Most of them now have a drastically different perspective on it.  Turns out when you leave cults you start questioning how much else you've been lied to on.  

This is a great point. Both VF and Doug Wilson out of Moscow Idaho spread neoconfederate views around the homeschooling subculture. Of course patriarchy already cultivated some of that, so it wasn’t a big stretch, but I  think the cosplay and “manliness” of those movements grabbed a lot of patriarchs. So gross that Doug Wilson still reigns in his little kingdom and spews this stuff relatively unchecked. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

6 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

No one in my family or among my IRL friends knows anything about my FJ family and interest in fundies. 

My poor husband knows all about my interest in fundies and has to listen to me regale him with the latest happenings, all while not knowing anything about any of the families involved.  But he is a good sport about this and about the bird flock in Australia that I also follow and at least feigns shock when something crazy happens there.  "Honey, you wouldn't believe what the conures have done this time!!"

[fluffernutter]

19 minutes ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

My poor husband knows all about my interest in fundies and has to listen to me regale him with the latest happenings, all while not knowing anything about any of the families involved.  But he is a good sport about this and about the bird flock in Australia that I also follow and at least feigns shock when something crazy happens there.  "Honey, you wouldn't believe what the conures have done this time!!"

If I have to listen to my husband's tech talk regarding his engineering job, he can listen to my obsession with cults. 🤣  (I really don't mind listening, but most of it goes over my head. As I suspect my blathering on about polygamy or fundies does to him).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

IBLP issues a Media Inquiry Statement last week in response to inquiries from NBC news.   The statement defends itself, in part, against abuse allegations and the equality of women.

So besides the Amazon documentary NBC is sniffing around as well.

I saw it on reddit, here is the link to the actual statement https://iblp.org/news/response-media-inquiry  I'm going to cross post this to the main Duggar thread as well.

Edited February 1, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

IBLP issues a Media Inquiry Statement last week in response to inquiries from NBC news.   The statement defends itself, in part, against abuse allegations and the equality of women.

So besides the Amazon documentary NBC is sniffing around as well.

I saw it on reddit, here is the link to the actual statement https://iblp.org/news/response-media-inquiry  I'm going to cross post this to the main Duggar thread as well.

Pretty rich for them to claim men and women are equal when the umbrella of authority puts women under men.

I'm starting to think that UP panicked when they found out NBC and Amazon were doing a deep dive into the cult. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, formergothardite said:

Pretty rich for them to claim men and women are equal when the umbrella of authority puts women under men.

I'm starting to think that UP panicked when they found out NBC and Amazon were doing a deep dive into the cult. 

I agree.  Notice the line about participants

Quote

The information IBLP has about those who participate in IBLP programs is limited and IBLP does not comment on the personal lives of its program participants.

They were asked specifics about the involvement of Bates and/or Duggars.  

Quote

IBLP no longer has extended residential programs at training centers. Its programs are now limited to several days or weeks and are mostly conducted at the Big Sandy, TX campus.

That's an odd thing to note.  Did any of the Bateseses do extended time at a training center?  Or perhaps a reference to Smuggars time digging ditches as a teen.

Quote

If someone disagrees with the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that is their decision. But those who do believe in Jesus as Savior are also free to live according to the teachings of Jesus and to speak the truth in love.

Come at us and we're gonna wrap ourselves in religious freedom.  Let's see how that works out.

[nokidsmom]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:40 PM, EmmieJ said:

No one in my family or among my IRL friends knows anything about my FJ family and interest in fundies.  Especially not my moderately fundie sister.

The only person IRL who knows about my FJ participation is Mr. No and he understands because his former best friend is fundie.  The former best friend was well on his way to fundieland back when he and Mr. No were in their 20s and it was pretty much the cause of their eventual rift.  

[FluffySnowball]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Pretty rich for them to claim men and women are equal when the umbrella of authority puts women under men.

I'm starting to think that UP panicked when they found out NBC and Amazon were doing a deep dive into the cult. 

Who would have thought that these hypocrites lie 🤫🤣

But with a new Duggar scandal airing every other year, Josh being in jail for child pornography, and more and more documentaries and infos coming out about the cult, I think IBLP’s most successful time is over. It’s just a bumpy downhill road for them from here. 

[neuroticcat]

“We think it is important to post IBLP’s response so that when news articles come out, you will know what IBLP said”.  When news articles come out.

They are trying to get ahead of the storm. The statement about not commenting on personal participants makes me wonder if a reporter discovered recoveringgrace and other ex IBLP stories and was like WTF, this is the Duggars and Bates “church?” (I know it’s not a church, but I imagine it would read that way to an outsider). OR it could be that they are sick of fielding questions about Josh (or the Bates if they have done something illegal) being IBLP and don’t want it traced back to them. 

The fact that they asked about residential programs makes me wonder if it is going to expose conversion therapy or some of the other abuses that happened back in the 80s and 90s at the reprogramming camps. 

Also, I wonder if the Bates themselves have a sense of foreboding at all. I mean, they know the real reason the show was cancelled and that it will inevitably leak. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by neuroticcat

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I mean, they know the real reason the show was cancelled

Are we sure of that?  I'd be kind of delighted if they didn't know and a recursive loop of all their heretofore unknown scandals just circle their brains endlessly wondering which one will come out.  

My vindictiveness aside, I am curious if they know or not.  And if Gil and Kelly know, did they tell the kids or some sanitized version?

[neuroticcat]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Are we sure of that?  I'd be kind of delighted if they didn't know and a recursive loop of all their heretofore unknown scandals just circle their brains endlessly wondering which one will come out.  

 

There really would be such a loop! It’s interesting to speculate. If it is b/c a single incidence, the Bates cancellation statement could be a cover/distancing/Hail Mary hope such that when it comes out they can still publicly recover face - like when the Duggars knew all along that Josh had been visited but the feds but basically issued a statement that denied it.

If UP just vaguely gave them the brush off, they may feel injured or persecuted but be completely unsuspecting. I have to think, though, that if UP hadn’t been clear, the Bates would have pressed for details or been a little more woe-is-us in their social media post. I think they must know something. And if it is just that UP doesn’t want to be associated with IBLP I hope they squirm with the knowledge that “faith and family” people think the teaching the Bates’ based their lives on is disgusting.

In my fanfic, Erin has somehow gone public while also choosing to distance from her family because of therapy.  The most affected family members are shunning her, while the others are able to have a neutral relationship. (That doesn’t quite work with her doubling down on the religious materials in their shop, but it still could work if she felt especially sustained by her faith.) 

In reality, it’s probably more like tax fraud or someone finally digging up IBLP dirt and saying WTF?

Whatever the case, I hope it causes every single one of them - especially the younger Gen - to question their beliefs.

[HereticHick]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That's an odd thing to note.  Did any of the Bateseses do extended time at a training center?  Or perhaps a reference to Smuggars time digging ditches as a teen.

I believe Bates boys have gone to Alert, and Bates maidens have gone off on IBLP missionary trips,  but we have remarked before how we were surprised that no Bates or Duggar teens--esp. the young ladies-- were ever shipped to the Chicago Gothard HQ to spend a couple of their "single seasons of life" as a "volunteer" until they snagged a husband.

[examples of IBLP fundy maidens who did that are Esther Staddon & Kendalyn Staddon)

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That's an odd thing to note.  Did any of the Bateseses do extended time at a training center?  Or perhaps a reference to Smuggars time digging ditches as a teen.

I don't think they did. Bill Gothard did pay for Erin and Alyssa to travel with him to Romania. 

Some really bad stuff is said to have gone on at the training centers. It is odd how they specifically noted they no longer have those programs. 

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Bill Gothard did pay for Erin and Alyssa to travel with him to Romania. 

Man, this still blows my mind every time I read it.  I can't imagine a scenario in which I would willingly travel with a sexual predator, let alone sending my sheltered virgin daughters off alone with one.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I don't think they did. Bill Gothard did pay for Erin and Alyssa to travel with him to Romania. 

Some really bad stuff is said to have gone on at the training centers. It is odd how they specifically noted they no longer have those programs. 

 

I imagine everything specifically referenced is in relation to questions from NBC.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Picture of Romania group. 3 Bates girls. 1 Webster. 1 Keilin. 1 Pecan. 1 Perv. And I’m sure some of you can name some other folks. 

[Mama Mia]

19 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Some really bad stuff is said to have gone on at the training centers. It is odd how they specifically noted they no longer have those programs. 

 

With all the horrific revelations that are always being shared about the various teen residential treatment schools and camps in the secular world,  I can’t imagine that a Gothard version would be anything less than revolting. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

21 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

With all the horrific revelations that are always being shared about the various teen residential treatment schools and camps in the secular world,  I can’t imagine that a Gothard version would be anything less than revolting. 

I thought the same.  The boarding school I went to is listed on the cult awareness network and as secular as it was the methods were scarring.  I cannot even imagine how much worse that level of deliberate breaking of the spirit and ensuing control would have been for me if it had been fused with religious guilt.  I want to know what they've uncovered, but I'm afraid to learn the details at the same time.

[GiggleOfGirls]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:31 PM, Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing said:

Oh yeah. People will go on and on about ‘Southern Pride’ and how the flag represents that. Like what ‘pride’? You’re proud that the Confederacy fought for the rights of states to have slaves? That’s something to have pride in? People will just not admit that that is what ‘Southern Pride’ and the Confederate flag are - representation of the enslavement of other human beings based solely on skin color. 

Seriously. And something that truly pisses me off is that some folks in North-Eastern US states (former friends of mine, more specifically) took up the “cause” of defending the Confederate battle flag flying above state capitols (when that was a big issue in SC) and refused to listen to me about how those flags should absolutely come down. They wouldn’t listen to me despite the fact that (sadly) the flag is part of my heritage and not theirs. 
 

To my mind it’s like, stop defending a thing that your ancestors probably fought against, and listen to those of us whose ancestors fought underneath that cursed flag but actually want to try and make things right. 
 

I really hate that folks who don’t carry that unfortunate heritage jumped on the Confederate bandwagon. I can at least understand folks in my situation struggling to reconcile their family’s past association with the truth of the horrors, but… the Confederate worship has morphed into so much more than that.
 

It’s frustrating and disheartening.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@HerNameIsBuffy I've heard you reference a school before, I'm assuming some sort of troubled teen boarding school from what you've said but please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a good friend from high school who disappeared (changed schools per her parents) only to reappear a year and a half later after she turned 18. She was kidnapped from her house in the middle of the night and imprisoned at one of the schools and has basically never recovered enough to function normally in society. We're not close anymore, but I keep in touch.

Anyway, it has been on my mind a lot lately and I stumbled across a podcast about the troubled teen industry schools by Paris Hilton. Not sure of you've heard about that or have any thoughts. I figure any awareness that keeps a kid out of those programs can't be bad.

And I hope this isn't a triggering subject for you. If so, I'm sorry to have mentioned it.