Bates 30: Season 11 in the Can and Cancelled. What's UP with that?

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Did they present this as the way to handle it, or was there an Acknowledgment  about paying more attention?  
 

I would have been sure I knew the answer, but it doesn’t make sense that they’d admit this publicly if they weren’t using it as a teaching moment.  

They thought they did a great job. To them 10 year old Carlin sobbing through a week long revival and then coming home appearing happy and reading the Bible a lot showed they handled it correctly. The message was that your kids need to read the Bible a lot. They weren’t slightly embarrassed that they were ignoring their children. 
 

I only listened to a few of their lectures, but Gil especially would casually mention doing things most people would be embarrassed about. Like how the kids didn’t have a swing set, they had the money to purchase one, but Gil admitted he didn’t like spending money on things like that so he refused to buy his kids a swing set. Eventually someone took pity on the kids and gave them an old one. Gil used this as a sign he was right not to have spent his own money. 
 

Gil and Kelly really are just like Jill Rod and David. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Ah, thanks! I was thinking it was likely the bodyguard because that was the last one that made a splash. TikTok guy is the most recent right?

Oh then there is the Pray/Journal guy. I tried to listen to his podcast but I was so uncomfortable. It was like a therapy session and it creeped me a little.

I think he was the most recent.  And both Justin from the Podcast and the guy who testified at Josh's trial (the one who is still tight with the Holts, his name escapes atm) were talking with him publicly on Reddit and they all know each other.  So those three are solidly vetted.

I'm still of the belief that the bodyguard did work for them for a time, but is no where near the insider he's proclaiming himself to be and the info he was spewing was largely nonsense.  I give no credence to anything he said.

I haven't listened to the podcast because whenever it's discussed it does sound like it's a therapeutic journal, which is fine if he wants to put it out there but it's not something into which I want to immerse myself.

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

It was, but I don’t know if Erin was Gothard’s type. The girls he seemed to like best were more old fashioned plain-pretty more like Esther Staddon  and not modern-attractive like the Bates girls were even their down home frumper days.  Erin and Alyssa were flashy even in matching monstrous prairie dresses. Hair was a big thing to him- crunchy over gelled super long frizzed hair like Michelle Duggar’s hair. Did he not also mostly pick on girls that worked at headquarters for the most part? 
 

Just to note, I am not speculating about Esther- I am just noting an example.

By the way, I am not saying in my previous posts that I agree with spanking. It is just that some people think it is appropriate and it fits their values - and those values are usually aligned with people like the Bates and the target viewers at UP. It is not as cut and try in larger culture here that is automatically abuse. Hitting a kid is scary and hideous to a child and my word, my cousin is 46 and still has trauma over “whippings” from his SBC-minister dad. Hell, I still remembered being paddled twice in elementary school. If that was done to my kids now, there would be a teacher or principal missing paddling hand.
 

There is a reason it is outlawed in my husband’s home country of New Zealand. My MIL was so afraid American corporal punishment culture would infect our child rearing she sent us books from the NZ government on why it was bad! I never read the books because I agreed with her already. 

I could be remembering wrong, but I thought Gothard liked blondes with big curly hair. So looks wise, he probably would have liked Erin. However her personality would probably have turned him off. She’s too confident. I think he preyed on the girls who had troubled backgrounds. Who lacked confidence. Predators tend to look for targets like that. Erin wouldn’t have fit his predatory tendencies. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, formergothardite said:

They thought they did a great job. To them 10 year old Carlin sobbing through a week long revival and then coming home appearing happy and reading the Bible a lot showed they handled it correctly. The message was that your kids need to read the Bible a lot. They weren’t slightly embarrassed that they were ignoring their children. 
 

I only listened to a few of their lectures, but Gil especially would casually mention doing things most people would be embarrassed about. Like how the kids didn’t have a swing set, they had the money to purchase one, but Gil admitted he didn’t like spending money on things like that so he refused to buy his kids a swing set. Eventually someone took pity on the kids and gave them an old one. Gil used this as a sign he was right not to have spent his own money. 
 

Gil and Kelly really are just like Jill Rod and David. 

I figured they weren't doing a mea culpa, but I guess I still can't wrap my head around not being ashamed of that story.

I think that's the biggest disconnect for me when it comes to these people and parenting.  I get people have different values and so I understand that they will see things like homeschooling and their courtship stuff as positive things while I see them as harmful.  But while I absolutely made mistakes in parenting my kids, including missing stuff I should have seen, but if I were to discuss those specifics publicly I'd be ashamed of myself and it would be as a cautionary tale.  Every parent fails their kids in some ways, even those of us who really love our kids and do our best not to.  We owe it to our kids to admit that, apologize and accept that they don't owe us forgiveness.  We owe it to them to have uncomfortable conversations acknowledging our failures and answering questions so they have the info they need to process things.  If a parent's job isn't to help their kids heal from pain they caused Idk what is.

I'm not talking about abusive parents, but them too....I'm saying even really good parents cause pain to their kids because sometimes in trying to do the right thing we get it wrong.  

Their lack of shame astounds me.  Not just with the parenting, but with the grifting.  There is not a thing wrong with asking for help when you're struggling to keep your kids' needs met, but it should be a last resort not a business model for the family. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I figured they weren't doing a mea culpa, but I guess I still can't wrap my head around not being ashamed of that story.

I think that's the biggest disconnect for me when it comes to these people and parenting.  I get people have different values and so I understand that they will see things like homeschooling and their courtship stuff as positive things while I see them as harmful.  But while I absolutely made mistakes in parenting my kids, including missing stuff I should have seen, but if I were to discuss those specifics publicly I'd be ashamed of myself and it would be as a cautionary tale.  Every parent fails their kids in some ways, even those of us who really love our kids and do our best not to.  We owe it to our kids to admit that, apologize and accept that they don't owe us forgiveness.  We owe it to them to have uncomfortable conversations acknowledging our failures and answering questions so they have the info they need to process things.  If a parent's job isn't to help their kids heal from pain they caused Idk what is.

I'm not talking about abusive parents, but them too....I'm saying even really good parents cause pain to their kids because sometimes in trying to do the right thing we get it wrong.  

Their lack of shame astounds me.  Not just with the parenting, but with the grifting.  There is not a thing wrong with asking for help when you're struggling to keep your kids' needs met, but it should be a last resort not a business model for the family. 

I agree about the lack of shame. It’s uncanny, IMO. My husband has a brother who made many questionable decisions in his life that cost his parents a lot of money (and heartache). One time when the parents were incapacitated (age and illness) the kids called a family meeting to ask this brother to start paying back the $$$$$ he had borrowed over the years, as it had all been documented and papers signed etc... At this meeting this guy had the audacity to ask to borrow more money. WTH, some people literally have no shame and a very high threshold for embarrassment. It borders on pathological -

ETA- I have extreme second hand embarrassment!

Edited January 21, 2022 by SassyPants

[lumpentheologie]

IMO, if we agree that a husband hitting his wife (non-consensually) is always abuse, we should agree that a parent hitting a child is always abuse. It's even worse, because the power difference between parents and children is so extreme. 

[sansan]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:47 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Playing charades someone was miming killing or hunting someone and either Nathan or Trace yelled out, "George Floyd" and they all laughed.  She got some shit and took it down.  It was November I think it said upthread.

That video was so bad that I could not determine that that’s why they laughed and even the sound was not good.

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think he was the most recent.  And both Justin from the Podcast and the guy who testified at Josh's trial (the one who is still tight with the Holts, his name escapes atm) were talking with him publicly on Reddit and they all know each other.  So those three are solidly vetted.

I'm still of the belief that the bodyguard did work for them for a time, but is no where near the insider he's proclaiming himself to be and the info he was spewing was largely nonsense.  I give no credence to anything he said.

I haven't listened to the podcast because whenever it's discussed it does sound like it's a therapeutic journal, which is fine if he wants to put it out there but it's not something into which I want to immerse myself.

I had forgotten about the tiktok guy, TBH. They all sort of run together. I believe Justin Podcast is 100% legit but the first couple podcast eps really hit me a little hard and I felt so creepy listening to him. I mean, I know he is sharing of his own free will but as a recovered fundie teen it may have hit too close for me to finish.

[neuroticcat]

I think they don’t have any shame, because they are the poster parents for ATI. I think they know exactly where to draw the line with what they share publicly, because they don’t share the weird stuff on the show. They know mainstream audiences wouldn’t understand. But denying children their desire for a swing set or not “indulging” them with attention such that Carlin fell through the cracks is in line with the detached and disciplinary ATI approach. I remember hearing the weird Jessa/Jana  music box situation and thinking WTF? No mental gymnastics can make that anything but “make yourself more vulnerable to the person hurting you.” Not only are the parents brainwashed with this crap, but they don’t see children as individuals in their own right; they are belongings (blessings) of the parents, whose narcissism was only grown by the show and public attention. It’s disgusting.

I also think that the whole TTUAC principle is that if you break the child while they are toddlers and infants, you will have a peaceful parenting experience. So I don’t think the Duggars or anyone had to be particularly aggressive about it later on if they did it thoroughly when kids were very little. Did you ever see so much as an eye roll from a Duggar teen when they had to renovate trashed houses or clean all the bathrooms? Sure, some of that was cameras, but most of it was probably “training.” As they hit their teenage years, any ”rebellion” could be easily solved with a work camp or ALERT or JTTH. I think if an outsider saw the Duggars as laid back they were perhaps comparing it with raging angry families. I have no doubt the Duggars disciplined just as much, they just did it in private with soft voices.

Both of these sets of parents abused their children so effectively that out of 38 combined children, many of whom are adults, none except Jill have publicly named or implied there was abuse. That is shocking to me given the statistics of other big fundie families where inevitably at least one or two kids leave. I think there will be a shitstorm coming for these parents, and the show will bite them in the ass, because it allowed their kids more agency than anything else and a platform if they want a voice. 

I could see the show being cancelled for some of this stuff. For instance, if it comes in the documentary what the ATI camps and TTUAC practices were really like. I mean, the internet is forever, so they can deny they did this stuff in taking heads, but there are clips of them advocating it and they are still associated with ATI. A revelation like that won’t shock their fundie followers, but it would be bad press for a network trying specifically to be “family friendly” (vs. TLC who aired just about anything).

Edited January 21, 2022 by neuroticcat

[BernRul]

Even though the cancelation most likely wasn't because of the George Floyd comment, I am still thrilled their show was cancelled so soon after. I've been saying for years that I think the Bates are hard-core white supremacists(more than the typical white conservative racist based on ignorance. I've thought Gil and Kelly were gleefully racist but knew they couldn't say it on TV) and I could never understand why so many people compared them favorably to the Duggars. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

Even though the cancelation most likely wasn't because of the George Floyd comment, I am still thrilled their show was cancelled so soon after. I've been saying for years that I think the Bates are hard-core white supremacists(more than the typical white conservative racist based on ignorance. I've thought Gil and Kelly were gleefully racist but knew they couldn't say it on TV) and I could never understand why so many people compared them favorably to the Duggars. 

They are compared favorably by the people who aren't looking past the surface.

They present better.  At a glance the kids, with a few exceptions, are all conventionally attractive.  They appear to have individual personalities and are far less interchangeable on a surface level than the Duggar kids.  Gil and Kelly are not intellectuals, but they are smarter than JB and Michelle and it shows.  Their homeschooling is subpar, but it's better than at the TTH (I don't think most of the Duggar kids could meet even entrance requirements for Crown without a lot of remedial help.)

Even people who aren't familiar with the families can see there is something off about Michelle.  The crazy eyes, the affected speech.  Kelly comes off much more normal.  She can also write and speak orders of magnitude better than Michelle.  If you don't know about her beliefs and abuse Kelly is someone with whom you could have a pleasant conversation.  She comes off as if she loves her children.  Whether that's true or not is besides the point, she is able to sell that in a way Michelle never could.  Michelle tries, but the detachment is palpable.  

They appear to have a good marriage and Gil appears to value Kelly for more than sex and how she looked when they met.  It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, it's all about perception to the general public.  

Their poverty lasted longer than the Dugs due to TV coming to them later, so their kids had to work and interact with the secular world more than the Duggars.  This gives them a more relatable affect.  I have no doubt if they could have afforded it they'd have isolated their kids like the Duggars, but people don't know that so assume they are better parents.  

Duggar kids are awkward and stilted with each other and all the coaching in the world hasn't been able to hide that.  Bates kids interact like regular siblings from shows of annoyance to genuine affection.  Something was legit more healthy in the Bates home and my money is on the lack of a predator amongst the kids.  

Don't get me wrong - beneath the surface they are just as bad...but this is why the public and even casual snarkers think they're better...because they truly are in a prettier package.

I remember several years back seeing a pic of Kelly with a bunch of her younger kids gathered around her as she read to them and I felt a pang of envy.  I know better, I know who these people are...but for a second I was sad I didn't have more.  This is why they are so freaking dangerous.

If I were lost and struggling and Kelly befriended me I could see getting sucked in if I were young and unaware.  At least initially.  Michelle exudes no warmth so I wouldn't have even had the conversation.  

I've said this before, but there is a scene in IT where Beverly goes back to her old house and the lovely old Mrs. Kersch makes her a cup of tea.  She's so kind and charming, until out of the corner of her eye Beverly sees the mask slipping and the tea cup full of blood.  She realized Mrs. Kersch isn't real, she's IT.  Gil and Kelly are Mrs. Kersch.  Evil and abuse lurking beneath seemingly harmless facade.  

Edited January 21, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Jrodseyeliner]

I just can’t wait till the real reason comes out for the cancellation… I mean they had a wedding to show, the heartthrob of the family getting engaged.. babies galore. 
it must be huge and criminal. 

[BennettLeland]

I know-how long do you think we will have to wait?!?

[Jrodseyeliner]

2 minutes ago, BennettLeland said:

I know-how long do you think we will have to wait?!?

Who knows!! Hopefully not too long… It will be interesting to see if they will be any family fall outs from this now that they don’t have to keep sweet for the cameras!! 

[HereticHick]

50 minutes ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

Who knows!! Hopefully not too long… It will be interesting to see if they will be any family fall outs from this now that they don’t have to keep sweet for the cameras!! 

It is also interesting to me that there will no longer be the family pressure for the married adults to live near home to make filming easier--will be interesting to see if anyone moves away (Nathan & Esther, for example; or LawTiff ending up in Nashville or southern California)--or if Jackson, who's construction job apparently involves travel, ends up elsewhere. Of course the benefit of staying near Rocky Top is you get your teenage sisters (and Michaela) to babysit your quiverful of arrows.

[Johannah]

If this is due to a horrific scandal that will inevitably be leaked, why even pay lip service/lie by saying they’re going in a different direction with scripted programming? If/when the scandal does break they will also be caught out as documented liars.
 

I agree the suddenness of this makes it seem unlikely a business/content decision is actually the real reason, but then why not put out a statement saying UP has told us they will not be renewing, god’s timing, crew is family, so blessed, great times, blah blah. Just leave it at that. If it’s not bc of a content switch then they’re just digging themselves a deeper hole.
 

Unless maybe there’s some situation going on where canceling the show allows them to avoid the scandal leaking? Can’t think what that would be but I think it’s possible. And it would mean we may never find out why it really got canceled. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

My guess? It’s something with IBLP. I feel like the stuff with Gothard that came out a few years ago was just the tip of the iceberg. They pushed Gothard out and prayed that would take care of the situation. Well everything was fine until the documentary started digging. I’m sure they dug up some serious skeletons so far and UP got wind of it. I imagine UP hates scandal unlike TLC. They seem like the type to cut ties with a fake smile on their faces before anything official comes out. I’m betting something will be coming out in the next few months. Maybe a leak here and there. Until finally the documentary will come out. And all skeletons are presented. 

[ifosterkittens]

I am guessing UP thinks the scandal could come out soon or else they would have aired the season they just filmed and said we are choosing not to renew because the network is going in a different direction. Then if the scandal came out with the documentary in late 2022 UP could say we are surprised by this development, and we have already parted ways with the Bates family. The IBLP documentary isn't supposed to air until the end of 2022, right? 

[onekidanddone]

I’m stuck in the horror that the Pearls suggest beating a child for spilling a snack out of a ziplock or whatever. 
Who beats Debbi or Mikey if they knock something over?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

26 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I’m stuck in the horror that the Pearls suggest beating a child for spilling a snack out of a ziplock or whatever. 
Who beats Debbi or Mikey if they knock something over?

If no one else has time, I'll do it.

50 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

The IBLP documentary isn't supposed to air until the end of 2022, right? 

I thought it was next year, but I don't remember the source.  I never thought I'd look forward to the premier of anything more than Vine Valley.

[JermajestyDuggar]

It’s rumored the documentary will come out late 22 or early 23.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm a pacifist, and would prefer mental and emotional torture for the Pearls.

[onekidanddone]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If no one else has time, I'll do it.

I thought it was next year, but I don't remember the source.  I never thought I'd look forward to the premier of anything more than Vine Valley.

Take a number because I get to go first. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

I'm a pacifist, and would prefer mental and emotional torture for the Pearls.

I was being flip, I don't condone violence against anyone, even them.

My wish for them is what I'd wish for Josh and others like them....to develop empathy and a conscious and then spend the rest of their lives crushed under the weight of their victims pain.

 

[RosyDaisy]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I was being flip, I don't condone violence against anyone, even them.

My wish for them is what I'd wish for Josh and others like them....to develop empathy and a conscious and then spend the rest of their lives crushed under the weight of their victims pain.

 

Oh, I know.  I was just stating what I would like to do to them.  I honestly don't think these people are capable of empathy.  They are sadists who get off on abusing women and children.