Bates 30: Season 11 in the Can and Cancelled. What's UP with that?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Oh, I know.  I was just stating what I would like to do to them.  I honestly don't think these people are capable of empathy.  They are sadists who get off on abusing women and children.

I agree, it's the if I were omniscient with magic powers punishment.  Give then empathy and then infuse them with the pain of their victims which would be pure torture.

It's Friday nights and I'm chemically relaxed right now so I'm getting my make believe legal system from Charmed.

[Beermeet]

41 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

I'm a pacifist, and would prefer mental and emotional torture for the Pearls.

You could team up!  You could mess with their heads while Buffy beats them.  I want in though.  I'll be the hype man, waving a white towel like the 90's rappers had

[Dominionatrix]

I actually do think it’s possible the reason for cancellation is IBLP dirt that might not come out until the documentary airs a long time from now. All it takes is key advertisers getting wind of what’s coming and saying they will walk if this show isn’t pulled. An advertiser hasn’t made the investment UP has funding and filming two weddings and a destination proposal, so they don’t have the incentive to go ahead and air the season anyway. 

[GreenBeans]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:40 PM, nelliebelle1197 said:

Understood, but that is an individual definition and there has been nothing shown that would fit a standard definition of abuse - having too many kids while poor, religious, and stupid and spanking them isn’t necessarily abusive. I get a little uncomfortable labeling such things as abuse because it boils down to a values judgment

Where I live, both hitting your kids (and yes, that includes “spanking”) and educational neglect (and yes, that includes an education solely based on the Bible rejecting scientific facts) would absolutely be considered abusive (and illegal). 

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

Where I live, both hitting your kids (and yes, that includes “spanking”) and educational neglect (and yes, that includes an education solely based on the Bible rejecting scientific facts) would absolutely be considered abusive (and illegal). 

It amazes me how "To train up a child" can be sold in US. It would be banned in many countries! Even the strictest parents in my country would be horrified of hitting babies with sticks! Or pulling baby hair. Babies! Not even children (which is equally bad), but babies!!! Come on. It's incredible that this book is legal!!!

[GuineaPigCourtship]

Personal feelings on spanking (no fucking way) and the US culture feeling on it are really different. My father so much can't comprehend that we won't spank that he had talked about it at least 5 times in the past few months when I mention some new thing my daughter has learned. Climbing the dog crate! Touching the fire grating! Exploring the dog water bowl!

I said if they hit her, they will never watch her again and my mom knows I'm serious. You can't just hit people in society, why would you do it to kids? What exactly is the lesson?

I wasn't even spanked much as a kid, so I don't get it. But I can tell you that while it hasn't hurt my relationship with my parents, it certainly never helped anything.

[nelliebelle1197]

23 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I could be remembering wrong, but I thought Gothard liked blondes with big curly hair. So looks wise, he probably would have liked Erin. However her personality would probably have turned him off. She’s too confident. I think he preyed on the girls who had troubled backgrounds. Who lacked confidence. Predators tend to look for targets like that. Erin wouldn’t have fit his predatory tendencies. 

I thought the crunchy frizz was his jam but really we might be talking about the same kind of hair with different words

I think not only were the young girls vulnerable in some way, they were usually girls attached to headquarters as volunteers. Neither the Bates nor the Duggars sent children of either gender to volun-work at headquarters as far as I know- the closest was Michael after she was in her 20s and married. Gothard’s predation hinged on relatively long-term proximity and access.

2 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Personal feelings on spanking (no fucking way) and the US culture feeling on it are really different. My father so much can't comprehend that we won't spank that he had talked about it at least 5 times in the past few months when I mention some new thing my daughter has learned. Climbing the dog crate! Touching the fire grating! Exploring the dog water bowl!

I said if they hit her, they will never watch her again and my mom knows I'm serious. You can't just hit people in society, why would you do it to kids? What exactly is the lesson?

I wasn't even spanked much as a kid, so I don't get it. But I can tell you that while it hasn't hurt my relationship with my parents, it certainly never helped anything.

That is really odd that he is pushing you in this when he himself never did it.  My uncle, who emotionally damaged by cousin with his few spankings so badly never pushed me or his son (this uncle is more like my dad - he is married to my mom’s twin, I never had a sad, etc) towards corporal punishment. Just the opposite in fact- no advice at all. And that is unusual for a SB minister!

[Cults-r-us]

2 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

 

I said if they hit her, they will never watch her again and my mom knows I'm serious. You can't just hit people in society, why would you do it to kids? What exactly is the lesson?

I wasn't even spanked much as a kid, so I don't get it. But I can tell you that while it hasn't hurt my relationship with my parents, it certainly never helped anything.

I grew up looking at the bottom of the stairwell from the end of a boot. It did not enhance my relationship with my parents, either! When I hear people remark, "that child just needs it's ass beat", they are reacting to the child making them feel out of control and spit out the remedy given to them as children. So I know I always felt pressured from people around me to spank.

In the 50's and 60's, husbands were the heroes and disciplining children was what  good parents did. But when I hear people say, "if I did that, my dad would have beat me senseless" or whatever punishment, I always respond, "Have you looked at us? We did not turn out that great.".

[displayname]

Spanking never worked on me, it just gave me trust issues and made me sneaky.

[Ms Lucy Fur]

I commented on the BUB Twitter thread wondering what would really cause them to scrap an already filmed & announced season at the last minute. I do not follow Lawson, nor was he tagged, but when I went to see if he had said anything about the cancellation, he had blocked me. I felt kind of special. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think he just likes curly blondes. No matter how they get the curl. This woman came forward about being sexually harassed by Gothard. People would often joke about his “harem” or his “pets.” They were usually pretty blondes with curly hair.  Gothard would come across a girl and ask the parents to send her to headquarters to work there. I’m guessing he never asked Gil because Gil may have already heard some things by then. And Kelly would never let a sister mom go somewhere and work. Those oldest girls had to work for Kelly at home. 

[Keys]

7 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

Where I live, both hitting your kids (and yes, that includes “spanking”) and educational neglect (and yes, that includes an education solely based on the Bible rejecting scientific facts) would absolutely be considered abusive (and illegal). 

I’m curious as to what rules, if any, there are here about homeschooling. I know of a few heavily religious families who were in disagreement with mandatory vaccinations in public schools (they’d somehow been granted “philosophical exemptions” 🙄), but the final straw for them was when they introduced a new sex Ed curriculum that talked about consent and same-sex relationships. They pulled their kids out of school and are now homeschooling. I highly doubt that those kids are being taught any sort of legit science curriculum, seeing as their parents don’t believe in evolution or medical science. 

 

With regards to spanking, I was spanked 3-4 times as a kid, and still remember the pain and fear of it. My dad talks about how it was very calculated, not out of anger, and hurt him to do. He was raised in rural Italy, where disciplining with belts and wooden spoons was the norm. I remember one time where my mom slapped me and it caused my nose to bleed… she felt completely awful and I think changed her tune about physical punishment after that. We’re expecting our first babe, and I feel strongly about not using any form of physical discipline for our kiddos. My undergrad was in psych, and we’d learned about all the research behind spanking too, and how harmful it can be. My husband doesn’t really feel the same as me about it, as it was the norm for him growing up, but I told him this was one thing I didn’t feel we could compromise on. 

[Jackie3]

On 1/21/2022 at 1:46 AM, imokit said:

I'm not sure that the Bates were less abusive.  They've showed in their show some of the training, practising lining up and pretending to go places so the kids know how to behave in public. 

Who cares, really? All the kids were beaten by rods of some sort. I'm not going to get into the old argument about "The Bates aren't better, they are just prettier." Instead of focusing on that, the real takeaway should be that they ALL beat little children for doing normal little-kid things.

The reason I feel the Bates may have been slightly more relaxed is this--the adult Bates children seem capable of joy. You can beat the joy out of a child, and end up with a flat, passionless adult. I see that in many of the Duggar kids. However, the adult Bates -- Erin, Alyssa, Lawson (yuck), Zach--often seem capable of real happiness. This is a sign that they are less traumatized. 

[Jackie3]

19 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

I’m stuck in the horror that the Pearls suggest beating a child for spilling a snack out of a ziplock or whatever. 
Who beats Debbi or Mikey if they knock something over?

Thank you for being stuck in the horror. I think it's much more important than whether Gothard prefers crunchy blonde curls. 

The Pearls didn't SUGGEST beating for this reason. It actually happened. One of their kids didn't close a Ziplock properly and got whipped with a pvc pip because the snack inside (pretzels, I think) spilled on the car floor.

They have lots of other stories. In one situation, a little daughter was chatting with Debi in the kitchen. The child said something wrong (can't remember what it was), and Debi hit her with the pvc without any warning or explanation. Just whammed her.

There's another story where a young daughter stained some bedclothes while playing, and then lied about it. The little girl, who was about five, was obviously terrified. She stuck to the lie for about two weeks, though the Pearls continued to question her and apply pressure. Finally, the child cracked and told the truth. The Pearls whipped her every day for two solid weeks, on the grounds that she had lied to them for two weeks.

My daughter, growing up, was a creative type. Over the years, she managed to stain the rug, the walls, the bedclothes in one way or another. We protected the carpet with a cheap area rug, created place downstairs for her messier pursuits, and called it a day. When she went off to college, we bought her new bedding and repainted. No PVC pipe was ever needed.

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Jackie3

[Beermeet]

12 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

It amazes me how "To train up a child" can be sold in US. It would be banned in many countries! Even the strictest parents in my country would be horrified of hitting babies with sticks! Or pulling baby hair. Babies! Not even children (which is equally bad), but babies!!! Come on. It's incredible that this book is legal!!!

I wish I was shocked but I'm not.  US doesn't make laws for the benefit of its citizens, they make laws to for corporations succeed . The toxins in most of our body care products are banned in other countries.  Coca cola can make its products with cane sugar just fine like they already do in many countries but here, corn syrup is cheaper for Coca cola so, corn syrup it is for us.  Assholes. 

[Expectopatronus]

Spanking kinda worked on me. I say kinda because I learned to fear my mother and believed that I was bad but I went out of my way to try to please my parents. Growing up, I couldn’t always do it but I didn’t push the boundaries nearly as much as a lot of the other kids because I knew that I would be in trouble. My mom gave me a bloody nose once (which I got in trouble for) but she achieved her goal of getting me to stop whining from the back seat of the car. We do have a good relationship now but I have also done a lot of therapy. Compared to what the Pearls advocate, what I got was nothing. I don’t consider myself to have been abused because my mom’s goal was never to torture me; sometimes she lost control of her anger and others she was doing what she thought was right. My daughter will never be spanked but I have pulled her back when she was running away from me in a parking lot which made her cry. I wasn’t trying to hurt her, I was trying to keep her from getting hit but i felt terrible. 

[neuroticcat]

On 1/21/2022 at 8:46 PM, Dominionatrix said:

I actually do think it’s possible the reason for cancellation is IBLP dirt that might not come out until the documentary airs a long time from now. All it takes is key advertisers getting wind of what’s coming and saying they will walk if this show isn’t pulled. An advertiser hasn’t made the investment UP has funding and filming two weddings and a destination proposal, so they don’t have the incentive to go ahead and air the season anyway. 

I also suspect UP doesn’t have deep resources so they need to be careful of advertiser relationships. Even if they could air one more season before the official documentary, they have to weigh that against a possible early leak or more survivor stories going public apart from the documentary. And they may not want to look at all part of covering things up (like TLC). I suppose it’s also possible they have ethics and the top people were just horrified and refused to work with them any longer. 
 

It could also be a convenient off ramp. The Bates might bring in the viewers but they may be difficult to work with or getting more and more demanding with the fancy weddings, etc. 

15 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

 

I think not only were the young girls vulnerable in some way, they were usually girls attached to headquarters as volunteers. Neither the Bates nor the Duggars sent children of either gender to volun-work at headquarters as far as I know- the closest was Michael after she was in her 20s and married. Gothard’s predation hinged on relatively long-term proximity and access.

 

A lot of them were JTTH volunteers and seen around the admin buildings for various things. 

[Cam]

The following is mere speculation. But in today’s world, dna is playing an increasing role in outing the hidden secrets in families. What if it was revealed that Gil Bates or one of his sons had fathered a child by someone other than the woman they were married to? And what if someone had irrefutable dna evidence to support the claim? [The possibility that the “what-if it was one of the sons’-in-law” could be tossed in there, too, tho I’m not sure if that would carry as much scandalous weight.] But I think that kind of revelation would knock the Bates’ show off the air. 

I have no clue if or how often this happens in fundie families. But who would have ever thought Arnold Shwarzenegger would have fathered a child with his housekeeper? That development dumbfounded me. So anything’s possible. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Cam

[HereticHick]

I just notice that Josie posted 6 days ago that they were going skiing in Colorado "next week" (which is now). I wonder if UPtv was going to be involved in that trip, and if it is still on.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CY2slbGhdO5/

[0 kids n not countin]

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I just notice that Josie posted 6 days ago that they were going skiing in Colorado "next week" (which is now). I wonder if UPtv was going to be involved in that trip, and if it is still on.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CY2slbGhdO5/

They are still going, she posted in her stories about packing for the trip etc.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

The following is mere speculation. But in today’s world, dna is playing an increasing role in outing the hidden secrets in families. What if it was revealed that Gil Bates or one of his sons had fathered a child by someone other than the woman they were married to? And what if someone had irrefutable dna evidence to support the claim? [The possibility that the “what-if it was one of the sons’-in-law” could be tossed in there, too, tho I’m not sure if that would carry as much scandalous weight.] But I think that kind of revelation would knock the Bates’ show off the air. 

I have no clue if or how often this happens in fundie families. But who would have ever thought Arnold Shwarzenegger would have fathered a child with his housekeeper? That development dumbfounded me. So anything’s possible. 

But how would that be a big enough scandal to knock an already filmed, set to air, show off the schedule? Sure it would be a big deal. And might make UP reconsider filming another season — but just one out of wedlock side baby? That’s the kind of scandal they could cover with repenting and re-finding God, and all that stuff. Really anything that isn’t absolutely barbaric and up to Josh level creepiness could be covered with a “ a child that has lost their way/ one-time error in judgement/ we are all sinners” type spin. I think it must be big, and probably involves the parents. If you have 19 kids you have higher than normal odds of having one turn out troubled/criminal/rebellious/creepy/addicted.  People can understand that. Now mom/dad doing something truly bad - that’s harder.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

49 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

But how would that be a big enough scandal to knock an already filmed, set to air, show off the schedule? Sure it would be a big deal. And might make UP reconsider filming another season — but just one out of wedlock side baby? That’s the kind of scandal they could cover with repenting and re-finding God, and all that stuff. Really anything that isn’t absolutely barbaric and up to Josh level creepiness could be covered with a “ a child that has lost their way/ one-time error in judgement/ we are all sinners” type spin. I think it must be big, and probably involves the parents. If you have 19 kids you have higher than normal odds of having one turn out troubled/criminal/rebellious/creepy/addicted.  People can understand that. Now mom/dad doing something truly bad - that’s harder.

 

Agree.  And the only reason UP would consider not renewing at that point is because they brand themselves as uplifting family fare.

TLC would have looooved it if a JB or Duggar boy love child turned up as long as it was consensual....JB and M tried to kid others that their show was a ministry, but for TLC it was just a freak show and this would have enhanced that for them.  Hell, I'd pay per view significant money to see Michelle's crazy eyes as she copes with JB being One and Counting with a mistress.  

[Jana814]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:56 AM, GreenBeans said:

Where I live, both hitting your kids (and yes, that includes “spanking”) and educational neglect (and yes, that includes an education solely based on the Bible rejecting scientific facts) would absolutely be considered abusive (and illegal). 

I hope this would be the same where I’m from. A place where no one homeschools & families are willing to live in smaller homes & condos because we have one best school systems in the state. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Jana814

[Mama Mia]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:56 PM, GreenBeans said:

Where I live, both hitting your kids (and yes, that includes “spanking”) and educational neglect (and yes, that includes an education solely based on the Bible rejecting scientific facts) would absolutely be considered abusive (and illegal). 

Right. But in the area where the Bateseses  live, those things aren’t illegal. Even the evil public schools hit kids. And the Bateseses clearly receive at least enough of an education to function in society. Some of them have been to community college, or run businesses. So the cancellation can’t be because of just being on the more extreme side of the culture wars. Everyone already knows that. 

[Jackie3]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

 What if it was revealed that Gil Bates or one of his sons had fathered a child by someone other than the woman they were married to?

This would be UP gold. They'd be delighted. The ratings would shoot up (even the evangelicals would want to see how the Bates played this). Lori Alexander loves the Bates, yet I'm sure she'd tune in happily with her popcorn to see how they handled this sin (it would be Kelly's fault).

It won't be something that would shock the fundie audience. It will be something that would shock mainstream audience. It's the mainstream world that holds most of  the power and money.

I wondered if there are any POC who are high up at UPTV? Someone who perhaps participated in the George Floyd riots, who has personal experience with police brutality. Someone who was even more sickened than the average person by that video, who has children, cousins, siblings who are at risk from corrupt police. A person powerful enough to shut things down. It may have taken him a few weeks to convince the other executives that the Bates crossed a line.

Since sexual abuse is rampant in these families, I also wonder if there is a sexual abuse scandal that's been uncovered. That is the sort of thing that would shock the mainstream audience and (more importantly) advertisers.

19 children, plus spouses. It's hard to control everybody.  It's almost inevitable.