Bates 30: Season 11 in the Can and Cancelled. What's UP with that?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

25 minutes ago, Militant Fecundity said:

Yes, I think there is a distinction between practicing and endorsing spanking as a discipline method, vs a parent who has regretfully spanked their child out of frustration.  The latter isn't *okay* but it certainly isn't calculated.  

The experience helped teach me a lesson, even though it wasn't the spanking itself.  My mom rarely lost her temper, but on the rare occasion or when she'd be a little snappish because of stress she would apologize.  Let me know it wasn't my fault and admit she was wrong.  

I only remember one spanking;  she had just caught me climbing into the laundry chute so it was out of fear because that would not have ended well for me.  Again, not saying it's a good response but different than a strategic plan to use violence to get obedience.  She said she'd done it before when I was a toddler and darted into the street, but I don't remember that.  

I've never had a problem apologizing to my kids when I was wrong and I still think it's weird people think doing so diminishes their authority with their children.  They are people, we're human, if we accidentally hurt someone's feelings we should apologize and try to be better, no matter the relationship.  

She also never made us apologize when we were wrong, nor would she accept an apology that was to cover our asses and get us out of trouble.  A sincere apology she'd reward with immediate forgiveness and big hugs.  But an insincere apology is worse than none, since it's just another lie.

She was such a shitty parent in a few ways, but in others she was way ahead of her time.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[neuroticcat]

8 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

That is not speculation. That is making stuff up out of whole cloth with no evidence! Erin is the one of the most religious of the daughters. And there is zero evidence of any abuse.

 

Yeah, as best I could tell it seemed based on people’s’ observations and opinions. I think it’s absolutely possible to say the parenting choices in ATI/IBLP are objectively abusive (hello SAHDs and TTUAC), but the Reddit speculation was regarding interactions with Gothard.

[nelliebelle1197]

Just now, neuroticcat said:

Yeah, as best I could tell it seemed based on people’s’ observations and opinions. I think it’s absolutely possible to say the parenting choices in ATI/IBLP are objectively abusive (hello SAHDs and TTUAC), but the Reddit speculation was regarding interactions with Gothard.

Erin seems to be the one who would most likely dig in and ignore. Does that make sense?

[neuroticcat]

3 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Erin seems to be the one who would most likely dig in and ignore. Does that make sense?

 

 

Maybe I should clarify - it’s not my personal opinion; someone here asked for speculation, and I was restating something I saw on Reddit that hadn’t been discussed here. 

I think we know so little of their actual thoughts and feelings that anything is pure speculation and guesses. It’s possible Erin could, like Jill, appear to be an all-in rule follower and then when the illusion shatters (perhaps with Josh’s trial or chronic illness) be ready to deconstruct, at least from fundie doctrine. Also possible she might dig in more. I think any distance from family or IBLP are good things, because that is a necessary step in breaking free.

I think the layers of abuse in this cult are impossible to quantify. Everything everyone here has listed is abusive, but, at the core, the cult does not see children as persons worthy of dignity or respect. How do you quantify spiritual abuse or the abusive nature of growing up in a household where you had to parent your siblings? Instantly obey? Confess any desires outside of permitted ones? Only be home educated in rigid ways? CPS can’t necessarily investigate those things, but the ideology is rotten to the core such that even if (and I don’t believe this applies) the Bates could argue their spankings were “swats” or whatever, the entire philosophy is unquestionably abusive. 

As a parent, I get that it’s an uncomfortable framework to name things as objectively abusive, because most parents have good intentions, “do our best with what we have,” and want to be judged by that. I’m sure Kelly Jo would say she did her best, even as my own mother did her best given the horribly abusive family she came from. That doesn’t mitigate the pain of my own experience as the child of an abuser.

The reality is our actions as parents have consequences, whatever our intentions, and our children have inherent dignity. Personally, I think we should feel the weight of that a bit more.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

31 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Erin seems to be the one who would most likely dig in and ignore. Does that make sense?

I think the fact that she just had her 5th child in a two bedroom house is a pretty good indication she's not running from her upbringing at the moment.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

I have slight BEC for Erin because so many people who would normally rip apart a fundie having 5 kids in a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom 900 sq ft home will stick up for her. Probably because she knows how to make squeezing that many people into a small space look pretty, perfect, and trendy. If JillRod did this exact thing, people would be ripping her apart because she is not trendy in the least and has an off putting personality. Erin is polished. So people give her a pass. It bugs me to no end. 

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No, but their Ezzo tactics do rise to that level.  Michelle advised glue sticks and flexible rulers for beating infants during blanket training.  Kelly openly praised Ezzo methods until they were both realized how bad that looked and tried to erase their statements.

I know what you're saying, but in the case of people who follow Ezzo and the Pearls we're not splitting hairs on the semantics of the word abuse.  Any mandated reporter who knows about children being beaten with plumbing line is required to report that.  

My mom spanked me once or twice a couple of swats through my clothes and she cried because it made her feel so bad.  I was certainly not physically abused.  What went on in the Bates home absolutely was though and their parenting practices should have been investigated by CPS.

Honestly, I wonder if old Kelly really did all that or if she just thought it made her look good to have this training method. She is lazy AF and I am just not sure if she had to walk across the room and lift a finger if she would bother!

3 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I have slight BEC for Erin because so many people who would normally rip apart a fundie having 5 kids in a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom 900 sq ft home will stick up for her. Probably because she knows how to make squeezing that many people into a small space look pretty, perfect, and trendy. If JillRod did this exact thing, people would be ripping her apart because she is not trendy in the least and has an off putting personality. Erin is polished. So people give her a pass. It bugs me to no end. 

Amen and pass the cornbread.

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

Maybe I should clarify - it’s not my personal opinion; someone here asked for speculation, and I was restating something I saw on Reddit that hadn’t been discussed here. 

I think we know so little of their actual thoughts and feelings that anything is pure speculation and guesses. It’s possible Erin could, like Jill, appear to be an all-in rule follower and then when the illusion shatters (perhaps with Josh’s trial or chronic illness) be ready to deconstruct, at least from fundie doctrine. Also possible she might dig in more. I think any distance from family or IBLP are good things, because that is a necessary step in breaking free.

I think the layers of abuse in this cult are impossible to quantify. Everything everyone here has listed is abusive, but, at the core, the cult does not see children as persons worthy of dignity or respect. How do you quantify spiritual abuse or the abusive nature of growing up in a household where you had to parent your siblings? Instantly obey? Confess any desires outside of permitted ones? Only be home educated in rigid ways? CPS can’t necessarily investigate those things, but the ideology is rotten to the core such that even if (and I don’t believe this applies) the Bates could argue their spankings were “swats” or whatever, the entire philosophy is unquestionably abusive. 

As a parent, I get that it’s an uncomfortable framework to name things as objectively abusive, because most parents have good intentions, “do our best with what we have,” and want to be judged by that. I’m sure Kelly Jo would say she did her best, even as my own mother did her best given the horribly abusive family she came from. That doesn’t mitigate the pain of my own experience as the child of an abuser.

The reality is our actions as parents have consequences, whatever our intentions, and our children have inherent dignity. Personally, I think we should feel the weight of that a bit more.

Oh I know. I just didn't feel like I was making sense!

[rwmw]

In my opinion spanking a child is always abuse no matter the reason.

Children are young and experiencing so many new things for the first time; feeling so many new things that they may not be able to articulate. If children are too small to be reasoned with why hit them? There are other ways to fix undesirable behavior. If they are old enough to be reasoned with, then reason with them.

It is so confusing and painful to be so small and defenseless and to be hit by a person who is supposed to love and protect you. Why are we advocating for much stronger adults to be inflicting violence on children? In what world does this make sense?

There are scholarly articles and studies about the dangers of spanking. No good comes from it.

All spanking does is teach children to be more secretive, it doesn’t not give them to the necessary skills for conflict resolution.It does not fix “bad behavior”. It just sets people up for attachment issues and resentment.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

49 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Honestly, I wonder if old Kelly really did all that or if she just thought it made her look good to have this training method. She is lazy AF and I am just not sure if she had to walk across the room and lift a finger if she would bother!

It’s not the kinda thing one would support if they didn’t believe in it.  I’m sure she is lazy and I’m sure in some ways the kids benefited from that, but it’s the whole when people tell you who they are, believe them. 
 

she’s told us  she’s a nest of spiders for years and I believe her.

[Keys]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All of that is abuse straight up.  

I keep seeing stuff about Carlin's depression lately, is this something she's talked about?  Is she getting help for it now?

Their most recent YouTube video had a segment at the end where she talks about how difficult things have been for her lately - feeling low mood, having a hard time getting out of bed and being motivated to do things, etc. Made me feel worried for her!

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think the fact that she just had her 5th child in a two bedroom house is a pretty good indication she's not running from her upbringing at the moment.  

Could be. I think five kids in a two bedroom house for sure will push one way or the other. I’ve been following an ex Quiverfull fundie on Instagram tialevingswriter - really interesting threads and reels on Duggars and ATI right now. Anyway, she discusses how from the outside no one would have ever known she was questioning, but other women sharing their stories added up, and she was listening. That, and her children - which, as they grew, she realized she would not raise them in poverty and for sexually abusive marriages, were major catalysts

I think we really can’t know what (hopefully) will be the catalyst for the next Gen Duggars or Bates, but whatever it is, I think it will look very gradual at first. To me, distancing from family is huge.

[clueliss]

9 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All of that is abuse straight up.  

I keep seeing stuff about Carlin's depression lately, is this something she's talked about?  Is she getting help for it now?

Pardon if this was already answered, but yes, she/Evan discussed it recently in their vlog.  He “wanted her to get her hormones checked” because of it.  She seems to be playing the oh, it’s just hormones, I’ll be fine when I have the baby” game.

[Keys]

Just now, clueliss said:

Pardon if this was already answered, but yes, she/Evan discussed it recently in their vlog.  He “wanted her to get her hormones checked” because of it.  She seems to be playing the oh, it’s just hormones, I’ll be fine when I have the baby” game.

That was what concerned me most too! It being written off by them as “her hormones”. I just hope that if she’s struggling, she’s able to seek care for her mental health freely. 

[Keys]

I also think there may have been some suggestion about mood struggles for Carlin when she was a teenager/before being married? But I’m not sure what basis that was on, as I’ve never watched the show. 

[RosyDaisy]

I got the impression that Erin and the abuse mentioned on that Reddit thread is abuse by Gothard not abuse by the Bates?  However, the Bates are abuse shitty parents.  Funny story.  My sister was given a copy of Ezzo's Babywise at her baby shower by a fundie family member.  She promptly shredded it and put it in her cat's litterbox.  She said at least will have some use.

 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It’s not the kinda thing one would support if they didn’t believe in it.  I’m sure she is lazy and I’m sure in some ways the kids benefited from that, but it’s the whole when people tell you who they are, believe them. 
 

she’s told us  she’s a nest of spiders for years and I believe her.

Oh I like that -Kelly is a nest of spiders. Covers so much. 

I guess I just find it hard to believe that Kelly or JRod do much other than talk. There is such a languid yet full laziness to both of them. Michelle Duggar and Zsu Anderson on the other hand, seem like they would be perfectly at home in 19th century English workhouses beating the poor homeless creatures who come in for a bed and some gruel with orgasmic pleasure. 

43 minutes ago, Keys said:

I also think there may have been some suggestion about mood struggles for Carlin when she was a teenager/before being married? But I’m not sure what basis that was on, as I’ve never watched the show. 

I do think she said it on Instagram during the engagement period.

[nelliebelle1197]

21 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

I got the impression that Erin and the abuse mentioned on that Reddit thread is abuse by Gothard not abuse by the Bates?  However, the Bates are abuse shitty parents.  Funny story.  My sister was given a copy of Ezzo's Babywise at her baby shower by a fundie family member.  She promptly shredded it and put it in her cat's litterbox.  She said at least will have some use.

 

It was, but I don’t know if Erin was Gothard’s type. The girls he seemed to like best were more old fashioned plain-pretty more like Esther Staddon  and not modern-attractive like the Bates girls were even their down home frumper days.  Erin and Alyssa were flashy even in matching monstrous prairie dresses. Hair was a big thing to him- crunchy over gelled super long frizzed hair like Michelle Duggar’s hair. Did he not also mostly pick on girls that worked at headquarters for the most part? 
 

Just to note, I am not speculating about Esther- I am just noting an example.

By the way, I am not saying in my previous posts that I agree with spanking. It is just that some people think it is appropriate and it fits their values - and those values are usually aligned with people like the Bates and the target viewers at UP. It is not as cut and try in larger culture here that is automatically abuse. Hitting a kid is scary and hideous to a child and my word, my cousin is 46 and still has trauma over “whippings” from his SBC-minister dad. Hell, I still remembered being paddled twice in elementary school. If that was done to my kids now, there would be a teacher or principal missing paddling hand.
 

There is a reason it is outlawed in my husband’s home country of New Zealand. My MIL was so afraid American corporal punishment culture would infect our child rearing she sent us books from the NZ government on why it was bad! I never read the books because I agreed with her already. 

[Jackie3]

Why are we talking about spanking? The Bates don't spank. They dont' whack their kids on the rump with their hand. The Bates hit children with a rod. It's far more severe.

The Bates' cult is based largely on control, and they control children with the fear of pain. Many hit their kids with PVC piping when they've done something wrong. That's not discipline, it's not spanking, it's torturing children.

I never hit my kids, I dont' believe in it. But I still can see a huge difference between a whack on the butt and being whipped with a PVC piping. 

I don't know why people are searching for OTHER ways the Bates might have been abusive. Isn't it enough that they hit small children with elastic PVC piping? Do you really have to say, "Well, they're abusive because they couldn't pay attention to all 20, or they couldn't have fed them all properly, or they didnt' take them to the dentist that often." THEY HIT THEIR KIDS WITH PVC PIPING. It's already abuse--you dont' have to look any further.

Imagine being five years old and failing to completely close a Ziplock bag, causing pretzels to fall on the car floor. Out comes the PVC piping! A grownup holds your arm and whips it across your legs repeatedly (This actually happened to a Pearl child). What a life of fear those kids must lead. I don't always close Ziplocks completely myself, I can't imagine being tortured each time I fail to do so.

Obviously some fundie families are more abusive than others. I think the Duggars used the PVC piping (or other rod) more frequently than the more laid-back Bates. But I am pretty sure that when a contrary Bates child said "No!" to Gil or Kelly, the PVC piping came out.

It's not discipline, it's torture. Imo, it's worse than not getting enough attention. What would you rather experience--being whipped with PVC piping, say, once a month from ages 2-16?  Or get only distracted, distant attention from your parents? I'd take the distracted attention. It's not optimal, but it's better than the pain and terror from being whipped by that torture device. 

I'm so glad their show is cancelled and those child abusers will stop getting money and attention.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Jackie3

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, Keys said:

I also think there may have been some suggestion about mood struggles for Carlin when she was a teenager/before being married? But I’m not sure what basis that was on, as I’ve never watched the show. 

She was depressed when she was a teen. She was told to pray it away and keep sweet. I think the over-joyful, loud Carlin is somehow a character, not the real her. 

[imokit]

3 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

re more abusive than others. I think the Duggars used the PVC piping (or other rod) more frequently than the more laid-back Bates. But I am pretty sure that when a contrary Bates child said "No!" to Gil or Kelly, the PVC piping came out.

I'm not sure that the Bates were less abusive.  They've showed in their show some of the training, practising lining up and pretending to go places so the kids know how to behave in public.  Which strikes me as pretending to be in public at home, to beat them into compliance at home ready for public so they don't have to look bad beating kids in the open.  I doubt JB and M would have put that effort in.

Interestingly one of the verified reddit people said recently that in the Duggar church and circles the Duggar's were among the most lenient of the parents. 

I expect that both the Duggars and Bates went hard on the discipline on the older ones and older middles before getting lazy and delegating 90% of parenting to the older girls.  The younger Duggar Howlers were outright feral for a number of years as were the lost girls, those kids weren't being beaten for forgetting to do a ziplock properly.  The parents weren't paying nearly enough attention.  In the early Duggar shows where the Bates kids were with the Duggars, the Howlers were far wilder then the Bates and the Bates kids seemed slightly shocked by it.  The Duggars were also doing fun things like paintball and broomball the Bates kids didn't do and experienced for the first time on the show.

Both families horrifically abused their children.  The Bates kids had a slightly better education and the older ones seem more equipped for the outside world.  But I don't think that the Bates are less strict or abusive then JB & M.

They all suck sufficiently badly that the only reason the Duggars are unequivocally worse is because they protected Josh and covered up his horrors in their house.  Without Josh, or others sexual abuse issues (I'm looking at Gill who covered up abuse outside his home with Gothard) they'd be pretty equally shitty.

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, imokit said:

I'm not sure that the Bates were less abusive.  They've showed in their show some of the training, practising lining up and pretending to go places so the kids know how to behave in public.  Which strikes me as pretending to be in public at home, to beat them into compliance at home ready for public so they don't have to look bad beating kids in the open.  I doubt JB and M would have put that effort in.

Interestingly one of the verified reddit people said recently that in the Duggar church and circles the Duggar's were among the most lenient of the parents. 

I expect that both the Duggars and Bates went hard on the discipline on the older ones and older middles before getting lazy and delegating 90% of parenting to the older girls.  The younger Duggar Howlers were outright feral for a number of years as were the lost girls, those kids weren't being beaten for forgetting to do a ziplock properly.  The parents weren't paying nearly enough attention.  In the early Duggar shows where the Bates kids were with the Duggars, the Howlers were far wilder then the Bates and the Bates kids seemed slightly shocked by it.  The Duggars were also doing fun things like paintball and broomball the Bates kids didn't do and experienced for the first time on the show.

Both families horrifically abused their children.  The Bates kids had a slightly better education and the older ones seem more equipped for the outside world.  But I don't think that the Bates are less strict or abusive then JB & M.

They all suck sufficiently badly that the only reason the Duggars are unequivocally worse is because they protected Josh and covered up his horrors in their house.  Without Josh, or others sexual abuse issues (I'm looking at Gill who covered up abuse outside his home with Gothard) they'd be pretty equally shitty.

Just a note that some of the “verified” folks on Duggar Snark turn out not to be well-vetted or scammers.  I don’t know what their process is  but some of their verifications have not been solid. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

25 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Just a note that some of the “verified” folks on Duggar Snark turn out not to be well-vetted or scammers.  I don’t know what their process is  but some of their verifications have not been solid. 

Not this one.  I know what she's talking about, it was Bowman Fedosky (sp) his mom is the unlicensed midwife Jill worked under.  He's been on the show and has a tiktok channel.  Even I could have vetted this one!

I call bs on the others, including the body guard for sure, but this guy is legit.  That said he doesn't know what happened when he wasn't there, but he did live with them for a time.

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

She was depressed when she was a teen. She was told to pray it away and keep sweet. I think the over-joyful, loud Carlin is somehow a character, not the real her. 

According to Gil and Kelly’s lecture on Embassy Media Carlin began showing sign of depression when she was only 10. She told them she felt worthless in their large family. They reacted by dragging her to a revival and telling her she needed to focus of Jesus. And then Carlin started acting all happy and threw herself into trying to start Bible studies. One thing I remember is that Gil and Kelly ignored her so much they didn’t notice for months that she had been creating and teaching a Bible study for little kids. 
 

I think the over the top happy personality is sadly how she learned to hide her real emotions. 
 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

According to Gil and Kelly’s lecture on Embassy Media Carlin began showing sign of depression when she was only 10. She told them she felt worthless in their large family. They reacted by dragging her to a revival and telling her she needed to focus of Jesus. And then Carlin started acting all happy and threw herself into trying to start Bible studies. One thing I remember is that Gil and Kelly ignored her so much they didn’t notice for months that she had been creating and teaching a Bible study for little kids. 
 

I think the over the top happy personality is sadly how she learned to hide her real emotions. 
 

 

Did they present this as the way to handle it, or was there an Acknowledgment  about paying more attention?  
 

I would have been sure I knew the answer, but it doesn’t make sense that they’d admit this publicly if they weren’t using it as a teaching moment.  

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Not this one.  I know what she's talking about, it was Bowman Fedosky (sp) his mom is the unlicensed midwife Jill worked under.  He's been on the show and has a tiktok channel.  Even I could have vetted this one!

I call bs on the others, including the body guard for sure, but this guy is legit.  That said he doesn't know what happened when he wasn't there, but he did live with them for a time.

Ah, thanks! I was thinking it was likely the bodyguard because that was the last one that made a splash. TikTok guy is the most recent right?

Oh then there is the Pray/Journal guy. I tried to listen to his podcast but I was so uncomfortable. It was like a therapy session and it creeped me a little.

Edited January 21, 2022 by nelliebelle1197