(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[socalrules]

8 minutes ago, Freejin said:

Does anyone have a sense of whether this appeal will get off the ground at all? There’s no chance he’ll get off, right?

Nearly everyone appeals. It’s the normal next step in the conviction process. There isn’t anything special or different about Josh appealing. Most appeals fail. At most, should his attorneys find a line of argument to be successful, he will just get a new trial. It is highly unlikely the prosecution or judge did something so egregious that the conviction would be overturned and that would be the end of it all. Appeals take years. I wouldn’t worry about Josh walking free anytime soon. 

[Idlewild]

The appeal gives Josh and those members of his family who support/enable him the opportunity to cry persecution and not face up to the responsibility for his crimes.

With Caleb, Tabitha Paine’s husband and the CSA cop that we know of, the Duggars do seem to make a habit of befriending rapists/predators.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Idlewild

[Freejin]

8 hours ago, socalrules said:

Nearly everyone appeals. It’s the normal next step in the conviction process. There isn’t anything special or different about Josh appealing. Most appeals fail. At most, should his attorneys find a line of argument to be successful, he will just get a new trial. It is highly unlikely the prosecution or judge did something so egregious that the conviction would be overturned and that would be the end of it all. Appeals take years. I wouldn’t worry about Josh walking free anytime soon. 

Does it seem likely he would get a new trial?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 hours ago, Idlewild said:

The appeal gives Josh and those members of his family who support/enable him the opportunity to cry persecution and not face up to the responsibility for his crimes.

With Caleb, Tabitha Paine’s husband and the CSA cop that we know of, the Duggars do seem to make a habit of befriending rapists/predators.

Don't forget their doctor whose now adult daughter recently came out discussing her CSA at the hands of her father.

And Gothard.  And Gothard's brother.

Edited January 25, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Alisamer]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:23 AM, OrchidBlossom said:

The file is a bit unclear, what does the very furthest left say?

I believe it says "interlinear". 

And thanks very much to @arareyeah and everyone - it's so interesting to learn about the differences and similarities among different religions and their texts! I'm so glad we have people here with so many different backgrounds willing to share their knowledge. 

12 hours ago, Freejin said:

Does anyone have a sense of whether this appeal will get off the ground at all? There’s no chance he’ll get off, right?

I'd be surprised if he didn't appeal, everyone always appeals unless they specifically ask their legal team not to, and even then there's likely to be some sort of serious discussion about whether the attorney should actually do what the client is requesting.

I think it's unlikely he'll get off. Even if the appeal was successful I think it would just mean a new trial. There'd have to be some compelling evidence to get even that far, probably. (IANAL)

[Tiny Bubbles]

The Daily Fail has a an exclusive photo of the car dealership. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10436175/Josh-Duggars-child-porn-lair-revealed-time.html

[sassy41]

On 1/19/2022 at 7:16 AM, Alisamer said:

I think the book first came out in 1950? But I was born in 74 and remember commercials for it (and his revised editions and sequel or something) on TV all the time through the mid 80's at least. It was vague and mystical and had an erupting volcano or something on it. I remember being intrigued but not enough to want to actually read the books! There was nothing in the advertising about it being scientology, or related to a religion or church, or anything like that if I remember correctly. It seemed to be implying the book held the key to a mental health breakthrough or something, like if you read it you'd know the secret to using your whole mind and you'd be happier and life would be great. It was vague enough that no matter what your issue you'd wonder if this book might help you.

I really think especially by that point it was just a far-flung recruiting tool to bring in more money.

Same age (about ) and yes.   One of my first big crushes converted to Scientology about a year or something before we met, so I read up on it a bit.  So thrilled, he wasn't into me because I was so impressionable at that age and I found  scientology odd, but I bet he could have persuaded me

[AuntKrazy]

On 1/21/2022 at 7:20 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Excellent post, but I wanted to point out that the KJV isn’t really in the English of the time. It was already archaic when it was published. The translators wanted it to sound old-fashioned. 

It's also largely based on the Latin Vulgate texts rather than the Greek and Hebrew (so a translation of a translation).  There are reasons that the KJV is actually the most unreliable English text - which I've always found richly ironic with all the KJV only fundies running around.

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Don't forget their doctor whose now adult daughter recently came out discussing her CSA at the hands of her father.

And Gothard.  And Gothard's brother.

I haven’t heard about the doctor. What is his name?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

I haven’t heard about the doctor. What is his name?

 

[Cam]

3 hours ago, Tiny Bubbles said:

The Daily Fail has a an exclusive photo of the car dealership. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10436175/Josh-Duggars-child-porn-lair-revealed-time.html

That office shed is disgusting. Disgusting. What a pig. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

21 minutes ago, Cam said:

That office shed is disgusting. Disgusting. What a pig. 

I expect no less from him. 

[clueliss]

Well,I’m starting to understand why the Duggars said that bit during Josh Scandal 1.0 about his common something like molesting one’s siblings is.  

[sassy41]

33 minutes ago, Cam said:

That office shed is disgusting. Disgusting. What a pig. 

What got me is that he forgot to sign out of his partittion or whatever to write up a receipt for his legitimate business  . Not remotely smart, and it just highlights his sloppiness

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, sassy41 said:

What got me is that he forgot to sign out of his partittion or whatever to write up a receipt for his legitimate business  . Not remotely smart, and it just highlights his sloppiness

Did he create a work receipt from the partition?  That means he had a printer installed on this partition as well.  That's odd.

[Cam]

It’s disgusting that the wallpaper on his computer is a photo of him and Anna with the kids. It makes me sick to my stomach. Here is a true wolf in sheep’s clothing. Don’t the Bible warn people about that? Here is a deliberate false front created to give others the impression he’s wholesome mister family man. Nauseating on many levels.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Cam

[SPHASH]

4 hours ago, Cam said:

That office shed is disgusting. Disgusting. What a pig. 

Disgusting yes, but not nearly as disgusting as what was found on his computer.

[sndral]

On 1/20/2022 at 12:16 PM, Antimony said:

Yea, I've kind of changed my mind on this a little and you're more right. The first reading I did about the passwords comes from the Defense's actual trial document, where they've taken that out of context from the rest of his email to the Government, which does make him look a tad bit more stupid. (Which I'm sure is part of the Defense's point.) The passwords in question, though, apparently relate to Josiah and Jed's social media accounts. Jed has a fake Facebook account that Caleb could access. So, in general, I think the passwords are kind of immaterial to the Defense's case, unless the whole family shared one password. Maybe they did, since apparently they were willing to give Caleb their passwords on things too. 

The whole thing is super weird. Jed (and maybe Josiah) were using Facebook sock accounts to...sell vehicles. It's just bizarre behavior. I think he was aware that the Defense wanted to tie him to this because;

Yea, no shit Sherlock. I wouldn't have wanted to the Defense to know I knew those passwords, I suppose, was my initial thought. But who knows what Williams understands about discovery and the fact that the Defense would eventually get this information. It's also worth noting that Williams sent this email to the Defense that he "found more passwords" on the first day of the Trial. Utterly bizarre. Why so late? Why on the first day of the trial? The Defense is pissed that the Government didn't bring this up, but if those passwords weren't Intel1988, it seems irrelevant. 

This, to me, seems like a genuine mistake. The prosecution was in Court all day long through this whole week of the trial. It seems to me that the prosecution might also not even have realized this was in their inbox at the time. (Worth noting this email went to one attorney, not the whole prosecutorial team.)

But it might not matter because this looks like what the heated discussions in the Judge's chambers were about. To the best of my recollection, reporters indicated that the trial was slowed at some point because of discussions in the chambers after which Gelfand came out looking heated;

Then, it looks like the Defense argued with The Court (read: The Judge) about this for a while and blah blah blah legal precedent blah blah. The Court specifically asks, "Are you trying to pin this on Williams?" to which the Defense responds;

Then, the Court said, "Alright my guy, you can call Williams to the stand but we have some rules about it." which were;

At this point, I don't understand legalese but I read this as, "Listen buddy, you can't just implicate whoever you want as an alternative perpetrator because that violates some other Court Rule that Antimony doesn't know nothing about." 

And then the Defense...didn't call Williams, which seems strange. They could have done it. I suspect they chose not to so they could make this the crux of their post-trial motion and also because then Williams would be on cross. If I were a Defense attorney, and I only play one in Ace Attorney, I wouldn't want a witness who didn't want to talk to me to be on cross with the Government, who he was on good terms with. 

This strikes me as odd. I'm not a lawyer so I assume Josh's lawyers are better lawyer's than me, by virtue of being a lawyer, but...duh? This is how testimony works. It's under oath but people still lie. Like...why write this, I guess? 

Anyway, I don't think this matters because the Judge already ruled on this in the chambers. I don't understand who gets their eyeballs on the post trial Judge, but if it is also Brooks, I imagine this won't fly. 

Edit: BONUS Armchair Lawyering. Here's Rule 403;

I snorted reading this. 

Rule 609 is all about trying to attack a witness based on a previous criminal conviction (which Williams has). 

So, I guess the Judge feels the Defense is introducing bias/prejudice if they try to bring up that Williams is also a sex offender, because that (almost) doesn't matter here if he simply needs to testify about password knowledge, and they're not going to allow that. William's sex offender status can't prove he did it, but it also will make the jury prejudiced against him (in this case, probably unfairly) and it throws a wrench in the whole system. 

Was this a motion for a new trial?
When they appeal it’ll probably be one of their arguments along with all of the pretrial motions the defense lost. Late discovery is always an issue - but it looks like the defense had the discovery, it wasn’t particularly complicated & they didn’t ask for more time to deal with it, more importantly the guy who sent it - Williams - was subpoenaed, the Judge told them they could put him on the stand, but that they could not ask about certain things which he deemed irrelevant. I don’t think Williams testified, so the fact that the defense chose to not put him on the stand at all weakens their position.

 

[onekidanddone]

Who would take one look at him and  that office and think ‘yea, this seems like a good place to buy a car’

[gustava]

1 hour ago, onekidanddone said:

Who would take one look at him and  that office and think ‘yea, this seems like a good place to buy a car’

People with little income  poor credit. I noted the word "semana" on that very unprofessional sales document and wonder if he had Spanish speaking customers.

[Beermeet]

Trigger Warning: Josh speaking to the feds.

He definitely speaks confidently and has computer knowledge above the norm. I couldn't speak like this.

 

Josh is such a liar.  He's comfortable with it.  I'm still listening and, wow. He knows exactly what he did but he's acting dumb but doesn't want to sound too dumb about computers because, ego.  What a weasel. 

[ILoveJellybeans]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:36 PM, Tiny Bubbles said:

The Daily Fail has a an exclusive photo of the car dealership. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10436175/Josh-Duggars-child-porn-lair-revealed-time.html

It even looks like a pervert's wank den.

[neuroticcat]

Wow. He is pretty collected in that interview…like, he knows how to ask: am I required to tell you that?
 

Also, love how when they ask him if he knows what Napster is, and he’s like: it’s before my time. NOT, um, I was raised in a cult and had all access to music, internet and external communications supposedly controlled by my parents.

Wow. And he is ready to say his friend set up Tor for encryption for the business right on the spot. I wonder if these offenders have tips for how to answer the questions. And then, never mind, he basically offers up that he was on the dark web (Tor) when the agent asked about Torrent. 

[Beermeet]

Some comments on Reddit say the FBI kinda got him with Onion and P2P talk.  It is notable that Josh changed after a certain point. He didn't sound as confident and suddenly was confused by computers; he started kinda bragging.

Edit: from what I've read about dark web perverts, they absolutely share tips. In jail too.

I can't wait for the rest. This is fascinating!

Edited January 26, 2022 by Beermeet

[neuroticcat]

11 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Some comments on Reddit say the FBI kinda got him with Onion and P2P talk.  It is notable that Josh changed after a certain point. He didn't sound as confident and suddenly was confused by computers; he started kinda bragging.

Edit: from what I've read about dark web perverts, they absolutely share tips. In jail too.

I can't wait for the rest. This is fascinating!

Yeah, I think them querying him about Tor/Torrent was an intentional way to poke holes in his lies. It seemed to have worked. 

I wonder what the agent’s job is like…if they can just tell right away because they’ve heard all the same lies before and know exactly what they found.