(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[Cults-r-us]

20 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

I get it, it so daunting to leave the financial comfort of keeping sweet....but she should be asking herself what women in her position who don't have millionaire inlaws do and being grateful she has more time than most to keep a roof over her kids heads while she formulates a plan.

As I've said all along, Anna loves her Smuggar Bear, and I'm sure the misery of them enduring his last self-inflicted crisis has made her feel emotionally close to Josh. The Smuggar must have his charms. I think she's too engaged in her emotions for Josh at the moment to sort out a plan. 

Tincture of time and being physically separated from him may help her eventually get grounded. And safe at home in the windowless warehouse, she may take baby steps, like get her G.E.D. if she doesn't have one. Meanwhile, her kids don't get uprooted and their routines stay intact.

So in some ways it's nice she has time on her side, but in others she might have been better off with some push to make life changes.

[Cam]

I bet she’s glad no sex with Josh for a good long time. I’m sure she loves him but she is probably glad to not care about how she looks all the time, doesn’t have to have dinner around Josh’s schedule, doesn’t have to get nekked with him when he wants it and she don’t. She will hate to admit it, but she will feel relief. I doubt she’ll turn from her fundie ways. But she’ll like some aspects of Josh-in-jail. And she may start actually having some of her own thoughts take center stage in her brain, but that kind of change will happen over time. 
 

She’ll have time to get to know her seven kids since her world won’t be consumed with the whole pregnancy landscape. That could be life changing in some ways. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cam

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

As I've said all along, Anna loves her Smuggar Bear, and I'm sure the misery of them enduring his last self-inflicted crisis has made her feel emotionally close to Josh. The Smuggar must have his charms. I think she's too engaged in her emotions for Josh at the moment to sort out a plan. 

Tincture of time and being physically separated from him may help her eventually get grounded. And safe at home in the windowless warehouse, she may take baby steps, like get her G.E.D. if she doesn't have one. Meanwhile, her kids don't get uprooted and their routines stay intact.

So in some ways it's nice she has time on her side, but in others she might have been better off with some push to make life changes.

I believe she has at least an associate degree or a certificate from an online college in early childhood care or something like that.  About the only job she might get with that is at a daycare center, or she could go into retail sales.  Neither would pay much, especially since she would have to get child care.

However, the important thing that many of like to forget is that Anna has never shown any inclination to leave.  She has said repeatedly that when she married she made a promise to God.

Unless Josh leaves her, she will be waiting for him when he gets out of prison, whenever that may be.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

About the only job she might get with that is at a daycare center

Your point is correct that she'd never be able to support the kids on that, but any daycare center that dared to hire her would see people pulling their kids out faster than they could clean out their cubbies.

Even people who don't follow the Duggars would be interested in a google if she was the new employee most parents aren't super comfortable leaving their kids with someone so supportive of a serial child predator.  

[Expectopatronus]

I’ve said it before but if I were in Anna’s shoes (God forbid!), I’d stay married for now too. That way, JB could pay for my kids expenses. Then, when Josh is released, I’d file for divorce. I’m not usually dishonest like that but in this case, I hope Anna takes the Duggars for everything she can get. A better house (deed in her name), top calibre music lessons, Christian University for the kids etc.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I’ve said it before but if I were in Anna’s shoes (God forbid!), I’d stay married for now too. That way, JB could pay for my kids expenses. Then, when Josh is released, I’d file for divorce. I’m not usually dishonest like that but in this case, I hope Anna takes the Duggars for everything she can get. A better house (deed in her name), top calibre music lessons, Christian University for the kids etc.

How are they going to get into college being homeschooled by Anna?  Duggar money comes with strings and as long as she's there her kids are in a cult that blames victims for their own abuse and is mired in psychological and often physical abuse.

She should take them for the money she and the kids are owed, but on her terms.

And of course she'll never do that.  But there is nothing okay about her not trying to get out for them.

[Bassett Lady]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

I believe she has at least an associate degree or a certificate from an online college in early childhood care or something like that

When they were engaged the show regularly talked about her “degree” but they never ever gave a description of the degree, not associates, not a bachelors, nothing. The name of the supposed school was never released, 

They have given numerous tours of their house and there has never been a diploma seen framed and hung in pride of place. 
 

Given her age and family financial situation, before marriage,  it seems likely that the “degree” was most likely an unaccredited certificate from a diploma mill. 
 

She is completely uneducated and responsible for seven kids. She cannot survive without help. 
 

It is the nightmare made possible, if not inevitable, by the cult. 

[SassyPants]

Anna should get herself down to family services and apply for financial assistance and state funded insurance for her brood, and then to an angel pantry for a couple of bags of food, and next to the public school to enroll her 4 oldest children. Finally, she should enroll in online community college. In no time at all she could be teaching in a PS in Arkansas. We all know that aside from the warehouse and a few dented cans of food, JB is not shelling out money to Anna. I know JB is not required to give Anna anything, but the ? Is how cruel is JB?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

21 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Anna should get herself down to family services and apply for financial assistance and state funded insurance for her brood, and then to an angel pantry for a couple of bags of food, and next to the public school to enroll her 4 oldest children. Finally, she should enroll in online community college. In no time at all she could be teaching in a PS in Arkansas. We all know that aside from the warehouse and a few dented cans of food, JB is not shelling out money to Anna. I know JB is not required to give Anna anything, but the ? Is how cruel is JB?

You're kidding, right?  In no time she could be teaching?  

One, I'd bet it would take her a year or more to even get the remedial classes done so she could even begin college level courses.  And as I said in reply to another comment, when someone has had worldwide press supporting someone like Josh any school or child care center would be out of their minds to hire her.  Anyone who would trust Anna in a job where she's a mandated reporter deserves to lose their license or job.  

39 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

When they were engaged the show regularly talked about her “degree” but they never ever gave a description of the degree, not associates, not a bachelors, nothing. The name of the supposed school was never released, 

They have given numerous tours of their house and there has never been a diploma seen framed and hung in pride of place. 
 

Given her age and family financial situation, before marriage,  it seems likely that the “degree” was most likely an unaccredited certificate from a diploma mill. 
 

She is completely uneducated and responsible for seven kids. She cannot survive without help. 
 

It is the nightmare made possible, if not inevitable, by the cult. 

I know Jill did some courses with College Plus, and I want to say it was the same program or same type of online, unaccredited, fundy cert mill.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

When they were engaged the show regularly talked about her “degree” but they never ever gave a description of the degree, not associates, not a bachelors, nothing. The name of the supposed school was never released, 

They have given numerous tours of their house and there has never been a diploma seen framed and hung in pride of place. 
 

Given her age and family financial situation, before marriage,  it seems likely that the “degree” was most likely an unaccredited certificate from a diploma mill. 
 

She is completely uneducated and responsible for seven kids. She cannot survive without help. 
 

It is the nightmare made possible, if not inevitable, by the cult. 

I agree she is uneducated—they all are.  But she may have a GED since she supposedly got some sort of post-secondary “education” to earn her certificate or whatever it was.  (I think it may have been from some fundie school.)

In any case, I suspect that we worry more about how she could support the kids than she does.  She seems wholly committed to staying in the Duggar fold and having JB support her until Josh gets out of prison.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Your point is correct that she'd never be able to support the kids on that, but any daycare center that dared to hire her would see people pulling their kids out faster than they could clean out their cubbies.

Even people who don't follow the Duggars would be interested in a google if she was the new employee most parents aren't super comfortable leaving their kids with someone so supportive of a serial child predator.  

I am not sure that most people google their childcare workers.  But if Anna were to look for a job, it would be because she had separated herself from Josh, and I bet the narrative would be that she supported him until she realized what he was and then she had to leave to protect her children.  So I am not sure people would object to her as a caregiver if she were separated from Josh and indicated no intention of taking him back.

However, Anna is not going to leave Josh, or look for a job, or be able to find a job which will support her and the kids better than whatever support she gets from the Duggars.  

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Anna should get herself down to family services and apply for financial assistance and state funded insurance for her brood, and then to an angel pantry for a couple of bags of food, and next to the public school to enroll her 4 oldest children. Finally, she should enroll in online community college. In no time at all she could be teaching in a PS in Arkansas. We all know that aside from the warehouse and a few dented cans of food, JB is not shelling out money to Anna. I know JB is not required to give Anna anything, but the ? Is how cruel is JB?

As @HerNameIsBuffy points out, it is not going to be easy for Anna, with her sub-par education (and the responsibility to care for 7 kids) to be teaching elementary school in “no time at all.”  I also think that Anna, for now, is getting enough support from JB that she feels no need to break away.

I disagree that JB is not going to provide adequately for her and the kids.  I think so long as he can, he will make sure they are fed and clothed (even if the clothes are thrift store bargains and hand-me-downs, which is the Duggar way.)  He likes being the patriarch, and also he wouldn’t want to push Anna to consider other ways of making money.

So long as she stays under JB’s umbrella, she has some security.  Her kids will get to go places with the extended family, and Anna will have the companionship of some of the Duggar women.  She won’t do any better, with seven kids, if she were to try to support them herself with whatever government aid she can get.

We can hope that, in four years or so, when the younger children demand less attention and life without Josh has been good, she may consider other options. We can hope, but shouldn’t count on, that she might start thinking of how she can get herself and the kids out.  A miracle may happen and she may reject the cult and ask her siblings who have left to help her.

However, I am not holding my breath. We may see clearly that Anna needs to get her children away, but Anna does not. 

[vienna]

13 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Your post seems very apologetic to Anna

It was an honest question I asked myself. I don't know, for example, whether there is any state support available in the US that she could life from. I dont want to excuse anything but think it is interesting to think about solutions for Anna and lots of other women in similar situations. Like a hotline you can call when you want to leave a cult (weather you are ibpl, mormon or whatever other cults are out there). My dream would be some kind of group of people knowing about cults and how to leave them. They would get my donation for sure.

I don't know about Anna (my guess would be she doesn't want to leave) but in general there are probably more people in cults that want to leave but honestly don't know how/ could only do so with support from someone. Leaving the cult is also leaving your family and friends. So support from someone is key.  

[imokit]

If Josh gets minimum jail time Madison will be over 5 when he's released.  She will be school age, the oldest ones will be able to step in with childcare.  There won't be child care costs for her to work.

The time for Anna to make big decisions is near his release time.  She won't be able to support herself better than JB will in the next 5 years unless she sells out to media (which she won't).  

5 or more years of Anna living under JBs rules, but not having to be sexually available.  Who knows where she'll be mentally or what she'll do then.

Think of how far we saw Jill come in 5 years.  Its possible for Anna to do the same (unlikely but possible). 

But now is not the time for her to make those changes.

Now working/leaving = not a lot of money earned + huge childcare costs + taking herself out of a support network + taking her kids away from cousins/friends they're close too.

Josh's release time, things will be a lot different as everyone will be older more helpful, less needy and more used to Josh being away.

- I know Josh is likely to get more than 5 years - but 5 years is how long it will be for all of Anna's kids to be school age.

[FundamentallyShocked]

Grief and shock are weird things. IMHO, Anna is watching the end of her dreams crumble. That part of her life is over. But, the pain of acknowledging it is enormous. She likely is simply surviving day by day. She isn't at the stage of recovery where she can make big decisions or changes. She is just existing. I don't expect any big changes for a year or so. And, for the moment, her kids are safe. She has time to regroup and plan. I hope her plans do not involve Josh.

[Idlewild]

JB will provide just enough to ensure Anna isn’t tempted to make money by going public in any negative way- sympathetic photoshoots will be permitted. 
Anna isn’t just wedded to Josh, she is firmly wedded to the brand and lifestyle. She is a far right Trumper with extreme conservative Christianity thrown in. She isn’t going to college, putting her kids in daycare or school or anything else. She will continue pretty much as before, except with no turd in the picture. 
It wouldn’t surprise me if she tried to relaunch her public presence - she doesn’t care about her kids privacy or welfare- she never has-  and there are enough idiot humpers who see her as a martyr. 

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

You're kidding, right?  In no time she could be teaching?  

One, I'd bet it would take her a year or more to even get the remedial classes done so she could even begin college level courses.  And as I said in reply to another comment, when someone has had worldwide press supporting someone like Josh any school or child care center would be out of their minds to hire her.  Anyone who would trust Anna in a job where she's a mandated reporter deserves to lose their license or job.  

I know Jill did some courses with College Plus, and I want to say it was the same program or same type of online, unaccredited, fundy cert mill.

You dont need a degree to teach in Arkansas-

what do you suggest she do to gain independence? 

[fluffernutter]

I think she is so drunk on the fundie kool-aid she will never even consider leaving, divorcing, working, or putting her kids in school. She will do the stand by her man thing, being the long suffering loyal Christian wife. And I think the boob will happily support her- after all, if she were to leave, she could start spilling the beans on all the family secrets. He’s gotta keep the cult going, and that includes those grandchildren. 

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

I think she is so drunk on the fundie kool-aid she will never even consider leaving, divorcing, working, or putting her kids in school. She will do the stand by her man thing, being the long suffering loyal Christian wife. And I think the boob will happily support her- after all, if she were to leave, she could start spilling the beans on all the family secrets. He’s gotta keep the cult going, and that includes those grandchildren. 

How do you think that JB can continue to fund this every growing cult family? I know a couple of family empires, and yes there are some individuals who take more than they contribute, but there’s always a core of highly educated, hard working members who keep the enterprise running. The Duggars just don’t have that, and they seemingly are burning contacts at every turn. If JB was financially solid, I doubt he would have attempted a run for public office at the same time his son was on trial for CSA-

[HerNameIsBuffy]

33 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

You dont need a degree to teach in Arkansas-

what do you suggest she do to gain independence? 

I think she needs to talk to someone who can help her weigh her options whatever they are.  I'm not in their community or her family and I have no idea what her realistic options are.

But I don't need to have a plan in place for her to call out fanfic about how she can be a teacher in a reasonable amount of time.  Or that people want a pedophile apologist near their kids.  I think you're really underestimating (in your other post) how much people will care about her deep feelings....she supported him on an international stage and most people wouldn't want their kids around that.  

[backyard sylph]

I think she's not a cognitive superstar, personally. But also, though I mistrusted that Lego guy from the first moment I laid eyes on him, I bet he and his wife do feel guilty, even if they never even admit it to themselves or outside their former baby-making boudoir, and will keep funding Josh's family as long as they are able. The Ms were meant to be trophies, I suppose. 

[fluffernutter]

46 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

How do you think that JB can continue to fund this every growing cult family? I know a couple of family empires, and yes there are some individuals who take more than they contribute, but there’s always a core of highly educated, hard working members who keep the enterprise running. The Duggars just don’t have that, and they seemingly are burning contacts at every turn. If JB was financially solid, I doubt he would have attempted a run for public office at the same time his son was on trial for CSA-

I think they still have a lot of money, at least for the boob's lifetime. That's really just based on the real estate and planes and stuff. I Don't know how accurate a google search of net worth is, but he is listed as 3 1/2 million. But really, I don't know. I mean the expenses to support Anna and the brood aren't huge. Food, basically. He owns the property, they don't educate the kids properly so there's no cost there, and I'm certain she is expected to pitch in in exchange for the financial support. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

You dont need a degree to teach in Arkansas-

The first several hits on google all say you need a bachelors to be considered to be able to teach in Arkansas.  Even if she could do it academically, and wanted to, (I'm guessing big no on both of those things) that's going to take way too long.

Personally I think Anna is a lost cause, but I do hope some young fundy moms who are silently unhappy beneath their kool-aid smiles see the position she's in and rethink their choices so they aren't completely screwed it they end up alone.  

I'm very curious as what she would do if JB and M didn't have the money to support her and 7 kids indefinitely.  What if she'd married someone from a family like the Rods where between the two sets of parents there is just no physical room or money to help?  

[Cam]

Yes, Anna is just existing at the moment. And fully ensconced in the fundie lifestyle. She got married almost 14 years ago and has been embroiled in Josh drama some of those years. Also years of baby mama drama. Being preggers while Josh was heading to trial, juggling everything, she had no time to sort out her thoughts or emotions. Maybe she liked the court case because it lifted her out of humdrum warehouse living. She got new clothes and shoes and was in the middle of the shitstorm.

There is no way anyone would allow Anna to be teaching their children other than maybe other Duggars. It would be all over the news and social media. There were already reports leading up to and heading into trial that people where they live were sick and tired of all the Duggar crap. They don’t want to deal with more negativity. Who of the townspeople wants to publicly defend Anna when that means you’re defending the way she accepts Josh’s reprehensible criminal behavior? 
 

I think JB has many millions. But I’m sure he would want Anna to get government assistance wherever she can and he can supplement. 
 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cam

[Antimony]

While discussion about what Anna could do for a job and what she might possibly be qualified for is fun, it's kind of moot in my opinion. 

Nobody's saying it could be easy, but of all of the Fundies in her situation, we know she has outs. Her siblings that left the fold have publicly supported her before. If reports about Derick being cordial are true, it sounds like he and Jill would be willing to help her step out in a gentle way that might not be such a shock. She doesn't really have a skill set to support seven children, but that didn't stop the Duggars or the Kellers either. They also really didn't make enough money to support those kids. She probably could cash in on some interviews or (ghost) writing, and she might get massive support from the ex-Fundie community if she left. She could probably even currently hit a podcast circuit with their ilk. (I recently listened to the episode of Family Secrets about Jace Alexander, and his wife Maddie Corman has written plays and hit the interview circuit about her husband having been caught viewing CSAM. I felt it was gross how she really skirted around the issue and made it about "porn addiction" and "a sickness", so even secular podcasts are willing to pick up such women as guests, I guess.) 

If she were willing to get a divorce (fat chance), she'd probably be able to negotiate some of the property, businesses, etc. in Josh's name unless Jim Bob tried to get a pre-nup signed by them, or something. I don't know that she could get alimony since her husband is in jail, but that might turn the asset division in her favor. Her sister has that big ass vacation home that the Rods mooched off of. She could leave. She just won't because she either doesn't believe he did it or she thinks that her promise to God is more important than her duty towards her children, or some fluctuating combination of both of those things.