(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[HerNameIsBuffy]

54 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Josh's lawyers have filed a post trial motion (available on Court Listener) that largely focuses on Caleb Williams and the Defense's apparently inability to call him as a witness. There's...a lot...and Caleb Williams is also convicted of having sex with a minor (with an unknown age but between 13 and 17) when he was 24. Gross. The file is...long but here are my thoughts and observations from it.

1. At one point, Williams tells the Government that he found "more passwords" but they relate only to Jed and Josiah's social media. He does not mention passwords for the work at the car lot. However, how genuinely stupid does one human have to be to look at this case and think, "Hm, definitely should implicate myself as having passwords for the family accounts"? Minor kudos for like, not hiding anything from the Government, I guess, but incredible.
2. Williams may have been at the Car Lot those days? Maybe. He can't remember. There's no record except a text to Josh that he "might be able to come help out." It doesn't really discount all the evidence of Josh's phone and geotag data. 
3. Williams handed to the defense many screenshots of his texts with Josh and he often texts Josh just...random Bible verses, repeatedly and apparently earnestly. Josh leaves him on read. It looks really pathetic. Josh only responds when it's about cars or whatever. 

I don't think this will matter because we can cross reference William's timeline against the computer timeline. Here is the computer timeline;

(From Reddit) Josh downloads CSAM May 14 and May 15. Caleb Williams, in the Defense's motion, but in correspondence to the government states;

This means the Defense would have to go back to the Remote Access Theory (I'm calling it RAT), which didn't fly very well in court and the Government shot down pretty well. Also, in this RAT, it implies that not only did Williams download all this, he magically did it while knowing when Josh would and wouldn't be on the computer because even if the computer was configured for the RAT with Linux, it would have shown this action on the screen. Caleb also couldn't have installed the partition because it was installed in the evening on May 11, when he would have left the state. It takes 5 hours to get from Spingdale to the Galleria Mall (is there no Apple store in all of Arkansas??) and the Galleria mall closes at 7PM. 

Anyway, Caleb also tells the Government he's a sex offender (I mean, they know, but he openly talks about it) and seems aware the Duggar defense may try to implicate him. 

For fun, here are some of the texts that Caleb sent Josh in which Caleb comes off an obnoxious clinger trying to Woo Josh via Bible quotes and Josh appears not interested. They're both Scummy folks (both have sex offender charges and Caleb was at the Jan 6 Capitol riots) so let us laugh at how whack these text messages are. 

Thanks for posting this.  I disagree that he was stupid to admit he knew the passwords, though.

If I knew I wasn't guilty of the crime at hand especially if I didn't know how much info the feds had I'd be completely upfront with them.  I wouldn't want them thinking I lied because I was complicit and trying to tie me into this.

[arareyeah]

39 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

You can even get Bibles that are "parallel" Bibles with multiple translations in the same book, which sounds cool - you can look up a verse and see it in multiple translations.

I'm wondering if this is an American specific thing because at least in my country I never heard about different versions of the Bible aside from Old Testament and New Testament. Maybe I should check local bookstores and ask my Christian friends. 

Maybe because in general, in my country it's mostly splits in two: if you're a Christian, then you're a Catholic or Protestant. Never heard of any specific denominations aside from Advent Christians. 

Speaking of which, I learnt that IBLP teachings has reached my country from this forum. A friend of the Duggars from my country brought it here.

[Antimony]

24 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thanks for posting this.  I disagree that he was stupid to admit he knew the passwords, though.

If I knew I wasn't guilty of the crime at hand especially if I didn't know how much info the feds had I'd be completely upfront with them.  I wouldn't want them thinking I lied because I was complicit and trying to tie me into this.

Yea, I've kind of changed my mind on this a little and you're more right. The first reading I did about the passwords comes from the Defense's actual trial document, where they've taken that out of context from the rest of his email to the Government, which does make him look a tad bit more stupid. (Which I'm sure is part of the Defense's point.) The passwords in question, though, apparently relate to Josiah and Jed's social media accounts. Jed has a fake Facebook account that Caleb could access. So, in general, I think the passwords are kind of immaterial to the Defense's case, unless the whole family shared one password. Maybe they did, since apparently they were willing to give Caleb their passwords on things too. 

The whole thing is super weird. Jed (and maybe Josiah) were using Facebook sock accounts to...sell vehicles. It's just bizarre behavior. I think he was aware that the Defense wanted to tie him to this because;

Quote

Although Williams appeared eager to voluntarily speak to Government counsel and Government investigators, he was far less willing to speak to the defense. Accordingly, left with no other option, the defense subpoenaed Williams to testify at trial

Yea, no shit Sherlock. I wouldn't have wanted to the Defense to know I knew those passwords, I suppose, was my initial thought. But who knows what Williams understands about discovery and the fact that the Defense would eventually get this information. It's also worth noting that Williams sent this email to the Defense that he "found more passwords" on the first day of the Trial. Utterly bizarre. Why so late? Why on the first day of the trial? The Defense is pissed that the Government didn't bring this up, but if those passwords weren't Intel1988, it seems irrelevant. 

Quote

He admitted he had access to Duggar social media accounts “to help them sell cars.” (Id.). But when cross-examining the law enforcement witnesses the Government called to the stand, Duggar did not have Williams’ statement even though it was sitting in the prosecution’s inbox.

This, to me, seems like a genuine mistake. The prosecution was in Court all day long through this whole week of the trial. It seems to me that the prosecution might also not even have realized this was in their inbox at the time. (Worth noting this email went to one attorney, not the whole prosecutorial team.)

But it might not matter because this looks like what the heated discussions in the Judge's chambers were about. To the best of my recollection, reporters indicated that the trial was slowed at some point because of discussions in the chambers after which Gelfand came out looking heated;

Quote

The defense addressed the Government’s late disclosure of this exculpatory evidence with this Court, on the record and in chambers, the morning after it was disclosed.

[...]

This Court then understandably asked Government counsel why it had waited 5 days to turn over the email from Williams. (See id. at 905). In response, Government counsel stated: Your Honor, one, these were unsolicited e-mails. We didn’t ask Mr. Williams to send these e-mails. We got it in the middle of a trial. We’ve been in trial all week. We honestly did not review it until Sunday. That’s when we met to discuss, okay, this is what we’re going to do for the rest of our case. What are they going to do? And, okay, they are going to try to call Caleb Williams. Let’s look at that e-mail.

Then, it looks like the Defense argued with The Court (read: The Judge) about this for a while and blah blah blah legal precedent blah blah. The Court specifically asks, "Are you trying to pin this on Williams?" to which the Defense responds;

Quote

The defense responded, “[y]es, but not exclusively, because he also has circumstantial evidence that shows, for example, even just the fact that he sold a car as a salesperson at the car lot shows that there were other sales people other than is reflected in the employment records.”

Then, the Court said, "Alright my guy, you can call Williams to the stand but we have some rules about it." which were;

Quote

you may call Mr. Williams and you may establish background of who he is and what his connection is. You may discuss the dates of his employment. You must ask him whether or not he has knowledge of recollection of being present on the car lot on or about May 13 through May 16. Defense conduct is May 14 through 16, but there’s evidence that the Linux partition was installed on the 13th. And you may inquire if he ever remoted in to the office machine, and if so, the time periods in which he would have remoted in. If he establishes that he was present or that he had remoted in, then we can take this one step further and you can ask these other questions and the Court wouldn’t have enough information to make an analysis against these cases that I discussed a moment ago until I hear that. [...] [A]ssuming he testifies that he’s never remoted in, that’s as far as you are going to get and the Court would find in that instance under 403 that the 609 conviction that you have discussed should not be allowed, because at that point, the primary purpose or objective of calling the witness will have failed, and the Court is not going to allow speculative testimony that we was the alternative perpetrator. And so under 403, it would not be allowed because of confusing the issues and the balance and test considerations.

At this point, I don't understand legalese but I read this as, "Listen buddy, you can't just implicate whoever you want as an alternative perpetrator because that violates some other Court Rule that Antimony doesn't know nothing about." 

And then the Defense...didn't call Williams, which seems strange. They could have done it. I suspect they chose not to so they could make this the crux of their post-trial motion and also because then Williams would be on cross. If I were a Defense attorney, and I only play one in Ace Attorney, I wouldn't want a witness who didn't want to talk to me to be on cross with the Government, who he was on good terms with. 

Quote

This ruling by the Court on Duggar’s right to call Williams to testify, thus, was that Duggar was not permitted to meaningfully inquire if Williams simply testified that he was not on the car lot at any point on May 13 through May 16, 2019 and if he testified that he had never remoted into the HP computer (regardless of whether he was telling the truth). 

This strikes me as odd. I'm not a lawyer so I assume Josh's lawyers are better lawyer's than me, by virtue of being a lawyer, but...duh? This is how testimony works. It's under oath but people still lie. Like...why write this, I guess? 

Anyway, I don't think this matters because the Judge already ruled on this in the chambers. I don't understand who gets their eyeballs on the post trial Judge, but if it is also Brooks, I imagine this won't fly. 

Edit: BONUS Armchair Lawyering. Here's Rule 403;

Quote

The court may exclude relevant evidence if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of one or more of the following: unfair prejudice, confusing the issues, misleading the jury, undue delay, wasting time, or needlessly presenting cumulative evidence.

I snorted reading this. 

Rule 609 is all about trying to attack a witness based on a previous criminal conviction (which Williams has). 

Quote

(1) for a crime that, in the convicting jurisdiction, was punishable by death or by imprisonment for more than one year, the evidence:

(A) must be admitted, subject to Rule 403, in a civil case or in a criminal case in which the witness is not a defendant; and

(B) must be admitted in a criminal case in which the witness is a defendant, if the probative value of the evidence outweighs its prejudicial effect to that defendant; and

(2) for any crime regardless of the punishment, the evidence must be admitted if the court can readily determine that establishing the elements of the crime required proving — or the witness’s admitting — a dishonest act or false statement.

So, I guess the Judge feels the Defense is introducing bias/prejudice if they try to bring up that Williams is also a sex offender, because that (almost) doesn't matter here if he simply needs to testify about password knowledge, and they're not going to allow that. William's sex offender status can't prove he did it, but it also will make the jury prejudiced against him (in this case, probably unfairly) and it throws a wrench in the whole system. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Antimony

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Antimony said:

This strikes me as odd. I'm not a lawyer so I assume Josh's lawyers are better lawyer's than me, by virtue of being a lawyer, but...duh? This is how testimony works. It's under oath but people still lie. Like...why write this, I guess? 

Anyway, I don't think this matters because the Judge already ruled on this in the chambers. I don't understand who gets their eyeballs on the post trial Judge, but if it is also Brooks, I imagine this won't fly. 

This is odd wording, I don't even understand the inference.

Thanks so much for the breakdown, this is very insightful.  IANAL either, but in over 20 years in IT I could see how solid the feds case was and this changes nothing for me.  The texts at the time of the downloads put Josh in front of the computer at that time.  

This is what us non-fundies call a hail Mary, it's not going to work.  (What term do fundies use for the concept of fuck it just toss anything and pray for a miracle?)

 

[arareyeah]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This is what us non-fundies call a hail Mary, it's not going to work.  (What term do fundies use for the concept of fuck it just toss anything and pray for a miracle?)

 

Perhaps they should start calling it "a Duggar Defense" from now on 😉😉😉

[HerNameIsBuffy]

It's commonly tossed around that JB is financing his defense, and while that's very likely it might not be the case if Josh sold of properties and such to fund his own.  That would make it technically Josh's money, even if Daddy did gift him the properties originally.

For the sake of argument let's assume Josh is funding his own appeal.  How would that work if his financial assets were held jointly with his wife and she didn't want to spend the last of their money on this.

Yes, we know Anna would never stand up for herself, but in the hypothetical when one spouse wants to spend hundreds of thousands on their appeal and the non-convicted spouse wants to use that money to provide for their children how does that work?  If money is jointly held can the spouse not locked up in protective custody move it to another account where the convicted spouse would have to sue her for access?  

I'm just curious how that works in cases where the free spouse isn't just a human banana slug that fused after mating and too stupid to chew. 

[EmCatlyn]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:44 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

….

Just googled that book and it's co-written by a guy named Hal Lindsey which I confused with Hal Lindsay and couldn't figure out why the hell Barney Miller was writing books about end times?

Thankfully they are two different people so my love of Captain Miller and the guys at the 12th precinct can remain intact.

Husband and I are about to embark on re-watching the entire series. (The DVD set was a Christmas present that just got delivered yesterday to the huge annoyance of the giver.)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Husband and I are about to embark on re-watching the entire series. (The DVD set was a Christmas present that just got delivered yesterday to the huge annoyance of the giver.)

Give my love to Jack Soo.  I can't think of another long running show where I loved every line up from beginning to end.  Fish killed me although Bernice deserved so much better, but Dietrich was perfection.  Harris was smoking hot, but so was Wojo, and I'd have married Dietrich...something for every frame of mind.  The only black mark on that show was when they tried to work Linda Lavin in.  I have hated her in every role I've seen her in because she chews the scenery, but at least on BM they didn't let her sing.

I loved how all the characters were both cartoonish but very nuanced at different times.

Absolutely favorite scene in any TV show ever, hands down, was when they hypnotized Wojo.  Not matter how many times I've seen it it's comedy gold.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[neuroticcat]

Somehow double posted. I will say here, though, that at first I thought @EmCatlynwas about to rewatch the Duggars and had many thoughts. 😂

Also will say here I think the multiple translations is an English speaking thing…

Edited January 20, 2022 by neuroticcat
Somehow double posted

[just_ordinary]

54 minutes ago, arareyeah said:

I'm wondering if this is an American specific thing because at least in my country I never heard about different versions of the Bible aside from Old Testament and New Testament. Maybe I should check local bookstores and ask my Christian friends. 

Maybe because in general, in my country it's mostly splits in two: if you're a Christian, then you're a Catholic or Protestant. Never heard of any specific denominations aside from Advent Christians. 

Speaking of which, I learnt that IBLP teachings has reached my country from this forum. A friend of the Duggars from my country brought it here.

Same here. I don’t think any congregation has a recommendation and it’s not even declared what kind of translation they use in the service. But then, most people don’t even have a bible. And if they do, it’s more a decorative book back in the shelf. I always find it fascinating how much room church/religion/bible take part in the lives of people that think they are pretty liberal and “not really religious” still. That seems to be a very US thing. Bible reading at home- heck that’s beyond weird and would definitely make you a fundie here. Praying before eating? Pretty much extra religious. Going to church weekly- extra religious if not fundie. I mean, people argue that a pastor’s wife has a leading role in the congregation. That has died in 1970s - in the rural parts of the country. So while as have still many mainstream Christians and Christian nurseries and schools are very popular it’s a whole other ballgame than Christianity in the US.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

3. Williams handed to the defense many screenshots of his texts with Josh and he often texts Josh just...random Bible verses, repeatedly and apparently earnestly. Josh leaves him on read. It looks really pathetic. Josh only responds when it's about cars or whatever. 

 

 

I wonder if Josh and Caleb were accountability buddies or something like that. This has that feeling, like text each other verses to keep each other from sinning

 

2 hours ago, arareyeah said:

So it can be said different denomination/church could use very different english translations? It's really fascinating from my POV because with the Quran, the english translation will has very similar meaning with the translation in my language.

It's interesting you said that fundies like the KJV version because they're opague enough for them to twist it into whatever they want it to mean. Muslim fundies have similar thing but from the opposite spectrum: they will try to enforce whatever written as is without learning why a certain verse came out and how it should be interpreted. That, combined with their habit to pick and choose plus cutting verses to suit their narrative are dangerous.

Honestly reading this forum and learning from you guys about Christianity made me think fundamentalism in any religion is truly rotten to the core 

I wouldn’t say very different translations, because on the whole, the English translations are very siimilar. You might see different prepositions, for instance, or a different translation choice for a verb. Most of the differences don’t really impact the plain meaning, though they may impact a literal verse-by-verse translation, and,, as you’ve mentioned, interpretation is a whole nother element. Because we have vast amount of copies of the texts translators can refer back to earliest known ones and see the reliability of the translations. Much of that has to do with the scrupulous copying of the texts by monks. There are a few places where early texts disagree, and most Bibles will note that in the text and explain why (for instance some early manuscripts don’t include the last chapter in Mark’s gospel, so it is still included in Bibles but with a notation).

Most Christians are able to accept this and still read the Bible as inspired and authoritative for a Christian life. Some groups that lean fundamentalist require belief in “inerrancy” which states that the Bible has no error whatsoever (more fundie people will say no errors at all; fundie lite may say no error in original translation). It’s ironic that the Uber fundies camp on the KJV, because that one has some of the biggest translation discrepancies.

But as Alisamer mentioned, the Bible is a collection of texts over centuries that the Christian church set into canon a couple of centuries after Christ. 

I think that’s different than the Quran? Does the Quran have multiple authors? Or is it direct revelation? 

 

[EmCatlyn]

On 1/19/2022 at 12:26 PM, arareyeah said:

I'm still amazed that there are many versions of the bible. Is different denominations will use different bible? (Pardon me for asking, as a Muslim we only have 1 version of the Quran for whatever denominations/branches. How we interpret them however, is of course can be very different)

The “versions” referred to are translations, and I believe there are different translations of the Quran as well.  The difference, I suspect, is that people study the Quran in the original Arabic, not in one translation or another. ( I may be mistaken.  Please correct me if I am wrong.)

Translation inevitably involves interpretation, and the different “versions” of the Bible are essentially rival interpretations. (There is more involved since in some cases translations also choose different original sources, but it is still a question of interpretation.)

In English, the King James Version (KJV) which goes back to the 17th century, is the oldest translation still in print.   It’s beautiful, but aside from the interpretation issue, it is written in an archaic form of English.  Other translations try to use language that will make sense to the reader.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, arareyeah said:

So it can be said different denomination/church could use very different english translations? It's really fascinating from my POV because with the Quran, the english translation will has very similar meaning with the translation in my language.

It's interesting you said that fundies like the KJV version because they're opague enough for them to twist it into whatever they want it to mean. Muslim fundies have similar thing but from the opposite spectrum: they will try to enforce whatever written as is without learning why a certain verse came out and how it should be interpreted. That, combined with their habit to pick and choose plus cutting verses to suit their narrative are dangerous.

Honestly reading this forum and learning from you guys about Christianity made me think fundamentalism in any religion is truly rotten to the core 

Totally agree that “fundamentalism in any religion is truly rotten to the core.”

As far as translations of the Quran go, my only experience is that a Muslim student once objected to the translation (to English) I had on my bookshelf.  He said it was a “bad translation” and offered to get me a better one. 🤷‍♀️

[backyard sylph]

8 hours ago, arareyeah said:

So it can be said different denomination/church could use very different english translations? It's really fascinating from my POV because with the Quran, the english translation will has very similar meaning with the translation in my language.

It's interesting you said that fundies like the KJV version because they're opague enough for them to twist it into whatever they want it to mean. Muslim fundies have similar thing but from the opposite spectrum: they will try to enforce whatever written as is without learning why a certain verse came out and how it should be interpreted. That, combined with their habit to pick and choose plus cutting verses to suit their narrative are dangerous.

Honestly reading this forum and learning from you guys about Christianity made me think fundamentalism in any religion is truly rotten to the core 

So they remove the verse from context. That’s what happens with these people, but they’re very inconsistent. They’ll say one passage of Leviticus is outdated, but another still applies. A whole lot of it was about safety in hygiene and when communing with other people. It made sense at the time in vastly different and limited circumstances, to an otherwise uneducated populace. And there are good lessons to take from that. But not the ones these fundies want to fling at others. 

[gustava]

19 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thanks for posting this.  I disagree that he was stupid to admit he knew the passwords, though.

If I knew I wasn't guilty of the crime at hand especially if I didn't know how much info the feds had I'd be completely upfront with them.  I wouldn't want them thinking I lied because I was complicit and trying to tie me into this.

Why did Caleb Williams have the passwords????

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, gustava said:

Why did Caleb Williams have the passwords????

Jed and Josiah had fake FB accounts for the dealerships and used them to sell cars.  Those are the passwords he had, nothing to do with the Linux partition or Josh's private accounts or the dark web.

A sometime employee having passwords to business accounts isn't noteworthy.  

 

[Antimony]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Jed and Josiah had fake FB accounts for the dealerships and used them to sell cars.  Those are the passwords he had, nothing to do with the Linux partition or Josh's private accounts or the dark web.

A sometime employee having passwords to business accounts isn't noteworthy.  

 

Defense also wants to show that the bookkeeping at the car lot was shoddy. That's no surprise, but even if somebody else were there, surely Josh would have given the Defense any good evidence of that. He didn't because there isn't any. 

[Expectopatronus]

I can see giving his brothers passwords to the Linux partition but if Josh is just handing passwords out to every Tom, Dick and Henry then what’s the point in having passwords to begin with? 
Even if, that’s a big if, Caleb is the one who downloaded the CSAM Josh had to know about it, hence his comment to Homeland Security. 

[Smee]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:26 AM, arareyeah said:

I'm still amazed that there are many versions of the bible. Is different denominations will use different bible? (Pardon me for asking, as a Muslim we only have 1 version of the Quran for whatever denominations/branches. How we interpret them however, is of course can be very different)

Sorry if this is an ignorant question, but does the Quran get translated into other languages much? I vaguely recall being told in a high school religion class that Muslims were strongly encouraged to learn Arabic and read from the Arabic at the mosque. Like how Jewish kids learn Hebrew as part of their bar mitzvah.

At the churches I have attended, there’s no prescribed translation but whoever is doing the bible reading that day might mention the translation they are reading from. It can be interesting to read along in a different translation and get a clearer picture of the meaning. But the differences are based on the fact that English is a language with so many words for very similar concepts, and a different grammar to the original languages. Generally it doesn’t make a huge difference to the overall meaning e.g. 

1 Corinthians 12:4-6

NIV:

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

ESV:

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

KJV:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

[SimplyMe]

This guy has some interesting insight on Caleb - his account is public, so I think posting this screenshot is ok.  Go to his page to read the rest that is cut off.  
 

This sounds conspiratorial of me, but would JB possibly be paying Caleb off to cast doubt on Josh’s guilt?  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, SimplyMe said:

This guy has some interesting insight on Caleb - his account is public, so I think posting this screenshot is ok.  Go to his page to read the rest that is cut off.  
 

This sounds conspiratorial of me, but would JB possibly be paying Caleb off to cast doubt on Josh’s guilt?  

Yep, as long as it's a public account it's fine so post the screen shot.  Would you mind posting the second page for the people who don't have FB?  

[SimplyMe]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yep, as long as it's a public account it's fine so post the screen shot.  Would you mind posting the second page for the people who don't have FB?  

Oh, sure, here’s the bottom part: 

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, SimplyMe said:

Oh, sure, here’s the bottom part: 

 

 

Yikes - I didn't know it came with his skeezy face!  Thanks for posting this.  

I don't see what Caleb is doing as trying to cast doubt or help Josh, but interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Also, if your last name is Williams you don't need to change your name, not like there aren't a thousand other unrelated Williams families out there.  No one is going to hear it and ask you if you're realted to THE Caleb Williams. 

Duggar, sure.  But not Williams.

I agree Caleb is not a pedophile (at least based on his charges) but he's still a rapist and the apologist stuff is rage inducing.

Edited January 21, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[neuroticcat]

Ugh, I didn’t know anything about Josh Williams abusing his stepson or the fact that the stepson killed a pet. Sounds like horrific generational violence and trauma and damage. 
 

I can’t imaging Caleb Williams involvement as anything but trying to clear his own name - he has experienced firsthand that there are real world consequences regardless of cult beliefs. I have wondered if, and it’s a big IF, Josh has something on him or they were involved in something together - regular porn, CSA, dark web, who knows? - so he’s tiptoeing around that so he doesn’t get incriminated. 

[arareyeah]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:23 AM, neuroticcat said:

I think that’s different than the Quran? Does the Quran have multiple authors? Or is it direct revelation? 

 

Quran is direct revelation passed on orally. The first caliph after the Prophet Muhammad's death put it into writing. At least the oldest manuscript found is 100% identical in content to what we use now.