(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[viii]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:36 PM, Expectopatronus said:

Neither Anna nor Carlin would have the ability to yell at each other. They have been trained since birth to suppress all big, powerful emotions. The two of them are probably rolling their eyes or laughing at this stupid rumour. Are they uninhibited enough to roll their eyes? Does Gothard allow that unwomanly display of distain? Scratched the eye-rolling. 

Oh this is wildly untrue. As someone who was raised in a similar atmosphere, women are the best at unleashing their emotions at each other and their children. Yes they are submissive to their husbands but when you lack control, you lash out at the ones you can control. Women would be quiet and reserved with their husbands and then viciously verbally attack each other the minute the men were gone. 

[Antimony]

1 hour ago, Idlewild said:

Anna sat through the whole trial- if she had any doubts about what CSA material is then listening to the horrendous description should have dispelled them.

I still have no idea why Justin was there (other than his new mummy, Hillary, wanting to fangirl the Duggars) but his grinning and thumbs up for the cameras shows me he still doesn’t understand the gravity and horror of CSA, in which case he needs to grow up. 

Nah, nah, nah, you're bringing normal people logic into this.  Anna (likely, and for the sake of this argument) doesn't believe he did it, so the descriptions and level of depravity of the crime is irrelevant to her beliefs, whether she listens to the descriptions or not. I think there are a couple possible-universes for Anna and none of them require her to understand how bad the material was (because that would shatter everything else, honestly);

1. Anna believes he didn't do it and it was downloaded by some other coinvent Patsy for this narrative. Likely Caleb Williams or Randall or even the French Hacker. It doesn't really matter. Full denial. 

2. Anna does believe he did it, but believes that no matter how terrible what he watched was, it would be a Bigger Sin for her to forsake her marriage. This is the exact same behavior she had with the Ashley Madison scandal. She clearly believed he did it, but felt that she had made a "promise to God" to be married. In this framework, Josh has a blank check to do Whatever because Anna prioritizes her Promise to God, and then Anna doesn't really have to consider the weight of his actions either. It's both absolutely fucked and somehow a facsimile of a healthy mindset of "I can only control my own behavior and my own response". A special kind of mindset, for sure. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter what Josh did because Anna's world has no option for holding him accountable for it in his personal life. It would be out of the directionality of The Umbrella of Protection or whatever. And, it spares her the hard emotional work of considering how much she might be accountable for by refusing to rebuke him. I don't think she can be guilty by association or anything, but she gets to skip the idea of "holding others accountable" and gets to skip over protecting her own children by defaulting back to the Umbrella of Protection's One Way Directionality. 

[Idlewild]

@Antimony I’m sure you’re right, but it makes Anna depraved that she can hear what Josh likes to watch and then go home to her children and think there’s no problem. The Duggars were very vocal about the dangers that trans women allegedly posed by needing to pee in a supermarket lavatory, if she has the slightest inkling that Josh may have watched this material, can she not join the dots as to what a real danger he poses to children? They make me sick.

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Nah, nah, nah, you're bringing normal people logic into this.  Anna (likely, and for the sake of this argument) doesn't believe he did it, so the descriptions and level of depravity of the crime is irrelevant to her beliefs, whether she listens to the descriptions or not. I think there are a couple possible-universes for Anna and none of them require her to understand how bad the material was (because that would shatter everything else, honestly);

1. Anna believes he didn't do it and it was downloaded by some other coinvent Patsy for this narrative. Likely Caleb Williams or Randall or even the French Hacker. It doesn't really matter. Full denial. 

2. Anna does believe he did it, but believes that no matter how terrible what he watched was, it would be a Bigger Sin for her to forsake her marriage. This is the exact same behavior she had with the Ashley Madison scandal. She clearly believed he did it, but felt that she had made a "promise to God" to be married. In this framework, Josh has a blank check to do Whatever because Anna prioritizes her Promise to God, and then Anna doesn't really have to consider the weight of his actions either. It's both absolutely fucked and somehow a facsimile of a healthy mindset of "I can only control my own behavior and my own response". A special kind of mindset, for sure. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter what Josh did because Anna's world has no option for holding him accountable for it in his personal life. It would be out of the directionality of The Umbrella of Protection or whatever. And, it spares her the hard emotional work of considering how much she might be accountable for by refusing to rebuke him. I don't think she can be guilty by association or anything, but she gets to skip the idea of "holding others accountable" and gets to skip over protecting her own children by defaulting back to the Umbrella of Protection's One Way Directionality. 

Yes.  In the end, what Anna believes or doesn’t believe about Josh is irrelevant against her belief that God wants her to stick by him.  

We need to remember also that her world-view may include the idea that Satan was out to get Josh because Josh was going to do God’s work.  Thus the worse Josh turns out to be, the harder he “falls,” the greater Satan’s interest in him and (by implication) the greater his soul’s value to God.  In this narrative, Josh may be the Christian Warrior who succumbed to the Machinations of the Devil but may still be redeemed by witnessing to his fellow inmates or whatever.  Framing it this way may give her comfort and hope in an otherwise hopeless situation.

[Antimony]

3 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@Antimony I’m sure you’re right, but it makes Anna depraved that she can hear what Josh likes to watch and then go home to her children and think there’s no problem. The Duggars were very vocal about the dangers that trans women allegedly posed by needing to pee in a supermarket lavatory, if she has the slightest inkling that Josh may have watched this material, can she not join the dots as to what a real danger he poses to children? They make me sick.

This is all absolutely true, but they just don't view it as incompatible with their beliefs. We can't square that circle because they are playing Calvin(ist?) Ball at the same time. 

[ElizaB]

I tend to view Anna as someone who is in "survival mode." She has a ton of kids who depend on her and has never learned to stand on her own two feet. If you think of the story 127 hours where the guy cuts his arm off-from our perspective we think- I could never/would never do that. However, in a tough situation you do crazy things. 

Unfortunately, for Anna she has been conditioned to always be subservient to males. This is what she knows to do. So in this extremely traumatic situation she is doing what she knows to do to "survive." She is doing what her headship tells her. In her mind if she puts on her blinders, stays loyal to her headship, and "keeps the faith" everything will be fine. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@Antimony I’m sure you’re right, but it makes Anna depraved that she can hear what Josh likes to watch and then go home to her children and think there’s no problem. The Duggars were very vocal about the dangers that trans women allegedly posed by needing to pee in a supermarket lavatory, if she has the slightest inkling that Josh may have watched this material, can she not join the dots as to what a real danger he poses to children? They make me sick.

Anna does not see the world as we do.  She may not see the difference between watching csam and adult porn (both are sins) or make the connection between what appears on csam and real children.  For all we know, she may believe that special effects/trick photography were used for the worst csam, and in any case, Josh didn’t do it.  He only watched because Satan told him to.

Going further, although we may all agree that any “inappropriate touching” of minors should appall the mother of seven children, we all know that Anna’s been conditioned to accept that molestation happens in many families. It’s not appalling to her, which is why the information about what Josh did to his sisters was less disturbing to her than the Ashley Madison revelations.

As for what Josh might do to their kids, I fear he would have to do a lot more than what he did to his sisters before Anna was sufficiently appalled to act. (Note: I am not speculating that Josh has done anything to his children.  I am speculating about Anna’s possible reaction if she were to discover that he did something.)  I think she would look at anything he did as sinful, and she might pray with him and get his promise not to do it again, but she would probably work to hide it, and the only “protection” she would offer her child(ren) would be things like encouraging the victims to wear less revealing clothing, locking their doors, and never sitting on Daddy’s lap or being alone with Daddy if you can avoid it.  (Again, this is speculation of what Anna might do. I am not suggesting Josh did anything to his kids.) 

I am making this last point because we keep talking about Anna as though she shared our world view.  She doesn’t.  She will not see what seems obvious to us. She will not respond the way we would.  

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

do.  She may not see the difference between watching csam and adult porn (both are sins) or make the connection between what appears on csam and real children.  For all we know, she may believe that special effects/trick photography were used for the worst csam, and in any case, Josh didn’t do it.  He only watched because Satan told him to

This isn’t exactly true, though. These people absolutely understand that sexually assaulting children is vile, more vile than porn. They have spent years ranting that liberals are evil because they will allow pedophiles to roam free and it is important to protect children.Even IBLP taught that after an adult is given a chance to stop sexually assaulting children they should be turned over to the police and locked up. IBLP also teaches that if you think about it it is as bad as if you do it. So according to their beliefs Josh is no different than the people on the videos hurting the children. 
 

And it has never been taught in IBLP or the IFB churches I attended that people aren’t to blame if they do evil things because of Satan. Satan attacked me is more a “I got cut by a green bean can” or “got a flat tire on the way to church and because Satan wanted me to skip the service.” Even IBLP has lectures on how a person must accept the blame if they allow Satan into their lives and do bad things. Satan very much isn’t a get out of dealing with the consequences of one’s actions card. IBLP teaches that you shouldn’t come up with excuses or try to shift blame. 
 

Anna knows those videos are evil, she knows people who watch those videos are a danger to society. So she is either in deep denial just going through the motions as she attempts to survive or she is well aware her husband did something terrible and she is standing by him knowing he is a monster. Neither of these options are good, but at least with the first there is a bigger chance she can find stability and grow to accept that Josh is dangerous. It is depressing to think that she knows he did this but is going to stay with him no matter what. 
 

 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This isn’t exactly true, though. These people absolutely understand that sexually assaulting children is vile, more vile than porn. They have spent years ranting that liberals are evil because they will allow pedophiles to roam free and it is important to protect children.Even IBLP taught that after an adult is given a chance to stop sexually assaulting children they should be turned over to the police and locked up. IBLP also teaches that if you think about it it is as bad as if you do it. So according to their beliefs Josh is no different than the people on the videos hurting the children. 
 

And it has never been taught in IBLP or the IFB churches I attended that people aren’t to blame if they do evil things because of Satan. Satan attacked me is more a “I got cut by a green bean can” or “got a flat tire on the way to church and because Satan wanted me to skip the service.” Even IBLP has lectures on how a person must accept the blame if they allow Satan into their lives and do bad things. Satan very much isn’t a get out of dealing with the consequences of one’s actions card. IBLP teaches that you shouldn’t come up with excuses or try to shift blame. 
 

Anna knows those videos are evil, she knows people who watch those videos are a danger to society. So she is either in deep denial just going through the motions as she attempts to survive or she is well aware her husband did something terrible and she is standing by him knowing he is a monster. Neither of these options are good, but at least with the first there is a bigger chance she can find stability and grow to accept that Josh is dangerous. It is depressing to think that she knows he did this but is going to stay with him no matter what. 
 

 

I think the key here is how you  define “sexually assault.”  For many people “sexual assault” is an abstraction and the same contact may be seen as abusive in one case and merely “inappropriate” in another.  It involves compartamentalizing and double-think, but both seem part of IBLP culture.

Molesting children is bad — but the victims should ask themselves what they did to provoke it.  The perpetrator has sinned, but he is not alone in being blamed.  Being tempted by Satan doesn’t get you off the hook if you yield to temptation, but when you repent and reject the sin you are forgiven.

When you consider how much abuse of various kinds happens and how it is brushed aside or normalized in the IBLP texts, it is easy for the “disgust” about sexual abuse to be applied selectively.  In other words, I think that someone like Anna will tend to look the other way at her headship’s transgressions and refuse to see how his proclivities might affect their children.  I think that by conflating adult porn and csam, they evade acknowledging that one is worse than the other. ( Whereas we distinguish between consent and abuse of the participants, their focus is on the sin of viewing.)

I am not saying that Anna or anyone in their circles would think that child sexual abuse is okay.  I am saying that they condone it in many cases by calling it something else.   Consider how Josh’s molestation of his sisters was handled, how the “Wisdom Booklets” talk about molestation in the family, and  the different accounts that we have heard from IBLP survivors.

In short, I am not trying to excuse Anna.  I am just exploring her situation from the assumption that she has been trained to accept whatever her husband does and to make excuses for him and build him up.  If he is struggling with Satan it is less horrible to her than if he is just a selfish, sadistic fraud.

I do agree that she is in survival mode.  Part of that survival mode is to double-down on her beliefs about marriage and not confront what her husband really is or might be capable of. 

[Beermeet]

23 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Not disagreeing with most of what you say, but some of Josh’s chatting up was clearly nervous, and I sometimes succumb to the need to talk when I am nervous.  I would never be so stupid as to ask police whether they were looking for evidence of what I was guilty of doing, but I could, when stressed, try to be “friendly” just to show I wasn’t scared.

So Josh was stupid and maybe overly confident because he is male, but I think it is also a personality thing.  

Josh reminded me of when I got caught stealing with my friends in 7th grade. He made every mistake.  The more I think about it, the more I see Josh blowing it in that audio.  

Did everyone hear the rest?  Daily Fail posted an article with the other 2.  It's....something else as it goes on.  Like when main Fed advised Josh to listen instead of talking.  How do you talk to the feds for that long without asking why they are there?  Probably when you know exactly why they are there so you start the acting.  Meanwhile, his body is registering panic; endorphins and whatnot and it's only clouding his judgment.  The feds are keenly aware of human reaction in many situations such as this.  Joshua didn't stand a chance.  

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This isn’t exactly true, though. These people absolutely understand that sexually assaulting children is vile, more vile than porn. They have spent years ranting that liberals are evil because they will allow pedophiles to roam free and it is important to protect children.Even IBLP taught that after an adult is given a chance to stop sexually assaulting children they should be turned over to the police and locked up. IBLP also teaches that if you think about it it is as bad as if you do it. So according to their beliefs Josh is no different than the people on the videos hurting the children. 
 

And it has never been taught in IBLP or the IFB churches I attended that people aren’t to blame if they do evil things because of Satan. Satan attacked me is more a “I got cut by a green bean can” or “got a flat tire on the way to church and because Satan wanted me to skip the service.” Even IBLP has lectures on how a person must accept the blame if they allow Satan into their lives and do bad things. Satan very much isn’t a get out of dealing with the consequences of one’s actions card. IBLP teaches that you shouldn’t come up with excuses or try to shift blame. 
 

Anna knows those videos are evil, she knows people who watch those videos are a danger to society. So she is either in deep denial just going through the motions as she attempts to survive or she is well aware her husband did something terrible and she is standing by him knowing he is a monster. Neither of these options are good, but at least with the first there is a bigger chance she can find stability and grow to accept that Josh is dangerous. It is depressing to think that she knows he did this but is going to stay with him no matter what. 
 

 

TY. I always appreciate your input because you know more than I do about IFB people.   Anna has spoken about her vow to God to be there for Josh and if she broke from Josh, she'd be breaking her promise to God as well ( general idea, not verbatim).  May I ask what say you about that thought process in IFB/IBLP? 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Beermeet

[Beermeet]

7 hours ago, Antimony said:

Nah, nah, nah, you're bringing normal people logic into this.  Anna (likely, and for the sake of this argument) doesn't believe he did it, so the descriptions and level of depravity of the crime is irrelevant to her beliefs, whether she listens to the descriptions or not. I think there are a couple possible-universes for Anna and none of them require her to understand how bad the material was (because that would shatter everything else, honestly);

1. Anna believes he didn't do it and it was downloaded by some other coinvent Patsy for this narrative. Likely Caleb Williams or Randall or even the French Hacker. It doesn't really matter. Full denial. 

2. Anna does believe he did it, but believes that no matter how terrible what he watched was, it would be a Bigger Sin for her to forsake her marriage. This is the exact same behavior she had with the Ashley Madison scandal. She clearly believed he did it, but felt that she had made a "promise to God" to be married. In this framework, Josh has a blank check to do Whatever because Anna prioritizes her Promise to God, and then Anna doesn't really have to consider the weight of his actions either. It's both absolutely fucked and somehow a facsimile of a healthy mindset of "I can only control my own behavior and my own response". A special kind of mindset, for sure. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter what Josh did because Anna's world has no option for holding him accountable for it in his personal life. It would be out of the directionality of The Umbrella of Protection or whatever. And, it spares her the hard emotional work of considering how much she might be accountable for by refusing to rebuke him. I don't think she can be guilty by association or anything, but she gets to skip the idea of "holding others accountable" and gets to skip over protecting her own children by defaulting back to the Umbrella of Protection's One Way Directionality. 

I didn't read you comment yet and posted mine.  #2 option is what I've been pondering. 

[Cults-r-us]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:07 PM, Expectopatronus said:

@Bluebirdbluebell I was dealing with a student who was suicidal and therefore late getting to the classroom in which she was an EA. The teacher was fine with it and stayed with her class but the EA told the principal that I had put the grade threes at risk by not showing up and thus no adult was in the room. Even though the teacher backed me, the EA asserted that I had bullied her into supporting my side of story. The teacher felt horrible. 

OMG how do these people get in a position to so unfairly affect their co-worker's mental health and livelihood? Because they're everywhere. The one I work doe is so nauseating with her fangirls, giggling (as adult women do at work), not real nice but not that bad to the rest of the staff but targets me (her previous target quit and the other one she quit harassing). She has blacklisted me and I can't transfer out.  But listen to this, the staff was orienting a new employee who I overheard them telling her do not take up for or compliment me, she will retaliate. This nonsense has become part if new employee orientation! The older I get, the more I believe there is no such thing as Karma.

[formergothardite]

13 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Josh reminded me of when I got caught stealing with my friends in 7th grade. He made every mistake.  The more I think about it, the more I see Josh blowing it in that audio.  

Did everyone hear the rest?  Daily Fail posted an article with the other 2.  It's....something else as it goes on.  Like when main Fed advised Josh to listen instead of talking.  How do you talk to the feds for that long without asking why they are there?  Probably when you know exactly why they are there so you start the acting.  Meanwhile, his body is registering panic; endorphins and whatnot and it's only clouding his judgment.  The feds are keenly aware of human reaction in many situations such as this.  Joshua didn't stand a chance.  

TY. I always appreciate your input because you know more than I do about IFB people.   Anna has spoken about her vow to God to be there for Josh and if she broke from Josh, she'd be breaking her promise to God as well ( general idea, not verbatim).  May I ask what say you about that thought process in IFB/IBLP? 

In my experience, IBLP would expect her to not file for divorce. But if he never fully admitted he sinned, agreed that he deserved jail time along with suffering the consequences of his actions meaning he can never be around kids, she could say that he is unrepentant and living in sin. There are loopholes if Anna really wanted to never see Josh again. Especially if Josh refuses to own up to what he did or deal with his punishment without complaining.Technically what he did would be considered cheating and the Bible does allow a divorce for that, so while they would strongly encourage her to remain at least married but separated, she could have biblical grounds for a divorce. 
 

I think that the Duggar parents care about Josh being arrested and found guilty because it messed up their brand and they currently worship money and fame. Josh is also now out of their control and they are control freaks. My gut feeling is if they could still have control over his life and this didn’t mess up their ability to make money Jim Bob wouldn’t care if Josh was locked in a cell the rest of his life. 

[gustava]

On 1/28/2022 at 4:03 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

She is probably blaming Josh’s lawyer, the jury, the prosecution, the feds that investigated Josh, and basically anyone directly related to the trial.

And Satan.....

[Pecansforeveryone]

@formergothardite, I don't think JB is sad because he will miss Josh. I agree he at least would be perfectly fine with Josh sitting in a jail cell for a very long time if the show were still on and JB knew the staff at the prison were fundies or fundie friendly. Michelle might miss Josh a little. 

[Mama Mia]

21 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Anna does not see the world as we do.  She may not see the difference between watching csam and adult porn (both are sins) or make the connection between what appears on csam and real children.  For all we know, she may believe that special effects/trick photography were used for the worst csam, and in any case, Josh didn’t do it.  He only watched because Satan told him to.

Going further, although we may all agree that any “inappropriate touching” of minors should appall the mother of seven children, we all know that Anna’s been conditioned to accept that molestation happens in many families. It’s not appalling to her, which is why the information about what Josh did to his sisters was less disturbing to her than the Ashley Madison revelations.

As for what Josh might do to their kids, I fear he would have to do a lot more than what he did to his sisters before Anna was sufficiently appalled to act. (Note: I am not speculating that Josh has done anything to his children.  I am speculating about Anna’s possible reaction if she were to discover that he did something.)  I think she would look at anything he did as sinful, and she might pray with him and get his promise not to do it again, but she would probably work to hide it, and the only “protection” she would offer her child(ren) would be things like encouraging the victims to wear less revealing clothing, locking their doors, and never sitting on Daddy’s lap or being alone with Daddy if you can avoid it.  (Again, this is speculation of what Anna might do. I am not suggesting Josh did anything to his kids.) 

I am making this last point because we keep talking about Anna as though she shared our world view.  She doesn’t.  She will not see what seems obvious to us. She will not respond the way we would.  

I think Anna is using what people think of her beliefs to her advantage. Both insiders and outside speculators.

She has a warped world view, but she knows what he did is evil. She knows he is a huge risk to her children. 
To her family and friends I’m sure she’s portraying herself as a martyr to God and a whole “stand by your man no matter what” devoted Christian doing what God demands of her. To the outside world she’s portraying herself as a meek and brainwashed extremist. But she KNOWS this isn’t like the Ashley Maddison thing ( which even here some people compare her staying as somewhat analogous). She KNOWS  she’s putting this guys dick over her kids.
 

There are THOUSANDS of women of all religious backgrounds, and no religious history at all, from the full range of socio-economic-geographic demographics who do this. It’s sad. It’s tragic. It’s horrifying. But it happens all the damn time. And with much more direct evidence of harm to their own kids. 

A divorce is a legal proceeding that a ton of people never bother to do for philosophical, religious or practical  reasons - the divorce itself is irrelevant. What’s relevant is she hasn’t made a statement, spent all her time dolled up in court holding his hand, named her g-d last baby Madyson as either a big f-u to the world or as a reminder or because he told her to and she obliged. And now she spends her time on calls and video chats and I’m 100% sure writing and reading letters and filling his commissary. She could hold on to her religious views and not do all of that. That’s a conscious choice to support him no matter what. She has family who have left marriages, she has extended family who would support her. She’s standing by him out of a besotted love. 
 

The ONLY semi-plausible out that somewhat mitigates her steadfast support is if he somehow convinced her that yes, he did search out some questionable hard core bdsm/barely legal porn, that he thought might be slightly on the edge of legality, but had no idea it was anywhere near THAT extreme, or that it involved actual children let alone infants etc etc —immediately tried to get rid of it, but knew the cops wouldn’t buy that so came up with the ever popular “wasn’t me” defense. I know it floated around in one report here that the images were viewed hundreds of times, but I don’t know if that was ever verified? I think that privately that’s what he tried to convince his family of too. But they know him. They know his history. They know how slimy he is. I think most of them probably think he’s just hopeless. But Anna will keep hanging on because she wants to, she’s using God as an excuse. 

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I think that the Duggar parents care about Josh being arrested and found guilty because it messed up their brand and they currently worship money and fame. Josh is also now out of their control and they are control freaks. My gut feeling is if they could still have control over his life and this didn’t mess up their ability to make money Jim Bob wouldn’t care if Josh was locked in a cell the rest of his life. 

I agree with this.  This family is facing some of the most horrible things a family can face, and yet it all comes down to what it did to image and money.

Instead of keeping this as the sh*t that goes down in their family that no one outside should know about, involving only their family / church, kept away from law enforcement and the courts this time it was put out there for all the world to see.  Attempts to wrest that control back didn't work such as trying to get the case tossed out and JB getting pushy with the judge.  They lost complete control here and I think it's driving JB nuts. 

[formergothardite]

35 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I know it floated around in one report here that the images were viewed hundreds of times, but I don’t know if that was ever verified?

If I remember correctly that came from the Fundie Wonderland person who was supposedly at the trial but reported things that weren’t reported anywhere else. I personally think they made it all up for internet attention. 
 

I agree that he might have told her that it was an accident because there was adult stuff he downloaded too. Really disturbing things and I don’t for a second think he didn’t know everything he was downloading, but Anna is probably going to cling to any thin thread that she can use to claim Josh isn’t a monster. 
 

It is impossible to know what she really believes, but she seems to be standing by her evil, dangerous man. If she doesn’t dump him over this then I doubt there is anything he can do that will make her leave him. 

[vienna]

Let imagine Anna wants to spend the rest of her life without Jpsh. Who would support her financially and/or mentally? Could she do it without telliing her kids that their dad is a sick pervert?

I think Anna puts the well beeing of her kids above everything else (meaning what in her cult and religious minded brain is their best interest, not what is their best interests by objective standards. 

[FluffySnowball]

34 minutes ago, vienna said:

Let imagine Anna wants to spend the rest of her life without Jpsh. Who would support her financially and/or mentally? Could she do it without telliing her kids that their dad is a sick pervert?

I think Anna puts the well beeing of her kids above everything else (meaning what in her cult and religious minded brain is their best interest, not what is their best interests by objective standards. 

Your post seems very apologetic to Anna and her decision to not protect her children but to willfully and knowingly put them in harm’s way time and time again.

She’s a grown woman who could work to support herself and her children. In fact, that’s her duty. Anything else and she shows what a crappy mother and human being she is. You can’t have children and then put them in horrible situations cause getting off your ass is too uncomfortable for you. Crazy you would suggest otherwise. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by FluffySnowball

[Workingmom]

16 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

She’s a grown woman who could work to support herself and her children.

Without a proper education she won't be earning enough to support her children. She has no education, no experience. The only jobs available will be minimumwage jobs. Childcare is expensive.  

I don't see her survive on her own.

[FluffySnowball]

1 minute ago, Workingmom said:

Without a proper education she won't be earning enough to support her children. She has no education, no experience. The only jobs available will be minimumwage jobs. Childcare is expensive.  

I don't see her survive on her own.

I’m not saying it’ll be easy. But Anna chose to have her children, now she can’t hide behind difficult circumstances and refuse to do right by them. And staying in an abusive, violent cult supporting a convicted pedophile isn’t an option that can be justified in any way. 

[Smee]

Anna might have been protecting her children in the beginning, when the molestation stuff came out, because at that point leaving Josh would have meant shared custody (& with JB & Michelle I wouldn’t put it past them to fight for full custody) so she couldn’t be physically present to protect the kids from him. But now he is in jail, and the only reason to take his calls and stand by him is because she wants to. Even the trial, she had a freaking newborn who she might have been breastfeeding, and he was not allowed to visit them from the Rebers. She did not have to go and dress up and cling to his hand.

Anna is abused and brainwashed and grieving, and frankly not being a good mother no matter how much she loves her kids.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I think Anna is using what people think of her beliefs to her advantage. Both insiders and outside speculators.

She has a warped world view, but she knows what he did is evil. She knows he is a huge risk to her children. 
….

It is very difficult to say for sure that “she knows what he did is evil.”   And she may simply not consider that he is a risk to their children.

As you say, this type of refusal to reject the husband regardless of what he has done or might do is not unique to “fundies.” Women who put their husbands ahead of their children are unfortunately too common.  (The saddest cases, I think, are when they blame the children.)

However, there is always a question of how much someone “knows” when their world view is different or when they trust sources that others mistrust. (A simple example might be the different things people “know” about diet or medicine.)

My impression of Anna is that she is desperately holding on to a belief that in remaining loyal to Josh she is doing God’s will.  This belief requires that she minimize everything he has done or might do and to believe in his future redemption, if she prays hard enough.   I don’t think she has room in her brain to consider Josh as a possible threat to her kids.

Whatever lies Josh has told her, she probably has done her best to believe.  And since her view of her duty is that she will stick by him while in jail, it is not surprising that they talk every day and she probably keeps his commissary credit full.  I don’t think she can accept that Josh is capable of “evil” because it would be too painful.  Whatever he does or has done, she may simply categorize as “great sin,” without using the stronger word.

Maybe I am wrong.  Most of us are only guessing.  I tend to assume that people like to think well of themselves and their loved ones and go through all sorts of mental contortions to keep up these illusions.  IBPL teachings seem to make it easier, but maybe not.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, vienna said:

Let imagine Anna wants to spend the rest of her life without Jpsh. Who would support her financially and/or mentally? Could she do it without telliing her kids that their dad is a sick pervert?

I think Anna puts the well beeing of her kids above everything else (meaning what in her cult and religious minded brain is their best interest, not what is their best interests by objective standards. 

Their cult puts children below husband, so if the lifelong brainwashing applies as a pass for her continuing the abuse/deprivation cycle with her kids than she doesn't get credit for thinking beyond her brainwashing.  And her brainwashing was to put her husband before her children.

As to your first point, how does Josh support her financially or mentally?  His parents have always supported her and their children with the exception of his time in the FRC.  A job he got strictly because of who his parents were and he didn't stay their long enough to work his way off their coattails.

It's a very difficult position she's in, no doubt.  She should be reaching out for help and advice to see what her options are from the people in the position to help her.  If I were she I'd start by asking for victim's services or whatever like agency  who helps kids of convicts who will have, among other things, resources both government and otherwise who may be able to help her.  It may take quite a while to come up with a plan, but she should be working on it.  

I get it, it so daunting to leave the financial comfort of keeping sweet....but she should be asking herself what women in her position who don't have millionaire inlaws do and being grateful she has more time than most to keep a roof over her kids heads while she formulates a plan.

Jill and Derek got a payout for their past wages, basically.  Anna should be talking to a lawyer about getting theirs for herself and the kids.  She gave birth on a toilet on tv ffs.    Josh is away and can't pay child support for the next several years at least so in a just world she'd be entitled to a portion of his as well.

She should at least arrange a consultation with the lawyer who represented Derek and Jill to have them go over her contract and see what she may be entitled to.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy