(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[Tatar-tot]

I don’t think Anna will leave Josh; however, the likelihood of Josh returning diminishes with each and every day he is in jail.  I don’t believe Josh ever wanted children or to parent them.  Josh is going to be unemployable sex offender when he leaves. I can seeing him taking off for parts unknown writing the scathing tell all. 

[feministxtian]

I think people are expecting too much too soon from Anna. Pest has been locked up for not even 2 months yet, and is in limbo waiting for the final sentencing. She has time to sort through the options she has. Expecting her to pack up and split now is unrealistic. Much like processing a death, making big decisions now is not a great idea. Her life, as she knew it, is over. What is the "new" life going to look like? At this point she has no idea. Due to the environment she lives in, she has no idea how to reach out for help. She will eventually find her path. Will she end up with a full time job, kids in public school, living on her own? Probably not. But, expecting her to make big changes now is unrealistic. 

[Alisamer]

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I think people are expecting too much too soon from Anna. Pest has been locked up for not even 2 months yet, and is in limbo waiting for the final sentencing. She has time to sort through the options she has. Expecting her to pack up and split now is unrealistic. Much like processing a death, making big decisions now is not a great idea. Her life, as she knew it, is over. What is the "new" life going to look like? At this point she has no idea. Due to the environment she lives in, she has no idea how to reach out for help. She will eventually find her path. Will she end up with a full time job, kids in public school, living on her own? Probably not. But, expecting her to make big changes now is unrealistic. 

I agree. So much depends on sentencing, which hasn't happened yet. Her choices are likely to be far different if he gets 5 years than if he gets 18. And even whatever she chooses after sentencing will change over time, surely. If he gets like 12 years, and she's facing the possibility of him coming home and trying to start the baby train all over again after she's got only teens and pre-teens and has been doing fine without him for years... who knows what she'll decide. There are too many variables I think, for anyone to predict what might happen, especially since he hasn't been sentenced yet.

I think if he gets 5 years or less, she might well just stick it out as is. Much more than that, who knows. And even that depends on how well Jim Bob is willing to keep her and the kids up. If the Duggar money quits coming she'll be forced into making some hard decisions. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

I don’t think Anna will leave Josh; however, the likelihood of Josh returning diminishes with each and every day he is in jail.  I don’t believe Josh ever wanted children or to parent them.  Josh is going to be unemployable sex offender when he leaves. I can seeing him taking off for parts unknown writing the scathing tell all. 

I've said before I wouldn't be surprised at all if he hooks up with some unhinged woman who writes to him and is the one who leaves Anna.  

Which I know sounds crazy, but Gacy, Manson, Richard Ramirez, Ronnie DeFeo, and Jeffrey McDonald all had women either marry them or want after they went to jail for heinous crimes.  

It would be interesting to see how she'd react if that were to happen.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I think people are expecting too much too soon from Anna. Pest has been locked up for not even 2 months yet, and is in limbo waiting for the final sentencing. She has time to sort through the options she has. Expecting her to pack up and split now is unrealistic. Much like processing a death, making big decisions now is not a great idea. Her life, as she knew it, is over. What is the "new" life going to look like? At this point she has no idea. Due to the environment she lives in, she has no idea how to reach out for help. She will eventually find her path. Will she end up with a full time job, kids in public school, living on her own? Probably not. But, expecting her to make big changes now is unrealistic. 

I don't think anyone here is expecting her to do anything.  I'm certainly not.  I expect her to sit on her entitled bigoted ass until Josh gets out and then hold his hand as he leaves prison.

I can't imagine any one has any legitimate expectations she'll do anything to benefit her children, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss what she should do and express disgust that she's not going to.

And sure, he was just sentenced.  Whatever whitewashed version she was told when they married, she's known since 2015 that he's a serial child sexual predator who has no issue preying on family and she not only stayed but went on to have 3 more kids with him.  Being in limbo for a few months or waiting on sentencing has nothing to do with it, she didn't act when the truth came out then, she didn't act when he was arrested last year for charges that would make any decent person vomit, and she's not going to act now.  

[Antimony]

8 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I agree. So much depends on sentencing, which hasn't happened yet. Her choices are likely to be far different if he gets 5 years than if he gets 18. And even whatever she chooses after sentencing will change over time, surely. If he gets like 12 years, and she's facing the possibility of him coming home and trying to start the baby train all over again after she's got only teens and pre-teens and has been doing fine without him for years... who knows what she'll decide. There are too many variables I think, for anyone to predict what might happen, especially since he hasn't been sentenced yet.

I think if he gets 5 years or less, she might well just stick it out as is. Much more than that, who knows. And even that depends on how well Jim Bob is willing to keep her and the kids up. If the Duggar money quits coming she'll be forced into making some hard decisions. 

I think the other factor in people's impatience with Anna is that like, this isn't his first Marriage-Shittery Offense. By this point, Anna has found out that he molested his sisters (maybe more than she knew, but we won't count this one in case she did, I guess), that he paid tons of money (that, to them, should be martial shared money!) to have an affair, has had a "porn addiction", lost his Good Job as Breadwinner, continued downloading porn, and then got arrested for CSAM (and potentially lied to her about what the investigation was about) and for anyone else...any one of these things could have been a deal breaker but the pile of them is mind-boggling. My mind, it is boggling all over. 

[Idlewild]

David Waller seemed to be at her side during the trial- he won’t be advising divorce, college or anything else I’m sure. He may help her broker her allowance from JB.

[EmmieJ]

20 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Jill and Derek got a payout for their past wages, basically.  Anna should be talking to a lawyer about getting theirs for herself and the kids.  She gave birth on a toilet on tv ffs.    Josh is away and can't pay child support for the next several years at least so in a just world she'd be entitled to a portion of his as well.

She should at least arrange a consultation with the lawyer who represented Derek and Jill to have them go over her contract and see what she may be entitled to.

I was thinking along similar lines.  She has to be aware that Jill and Derek were able to force JB to pay them some amount of money for their time on the show, so a precedence has already been set.   Even if she does nothing else, she should have some money in an account all her own, so that if one day she does wake up and wants to get herself and the children away from their current situation, she has some cash on hand to help her do so.

I began wondering if inmates can be ordered to pay child support, but 1) Josh and Anna aren't divorced, so that's not even a legal issue at this point, and 2) unlikely, as inmates aren't earning any money while in prison.  But does Josh have any assets of his own?  Did Josh and Anna have assets in their name that were signed over to JB or a family trust when the scandals started to break?  If so, can those assets be clawed back into Josh and Anna's name, so that Anna could use them/sell them to provide for herself and the children?  

Anna does have options, even though all of them probably seem out of realm of possibility to her at this point in time.  She has been so completely indoctrinated into the cult, and has wilfully buried her head in the sand for so long -- that she may never be willing or able to take the steps necessary to truly be a strong advocate for her children and herself.

[ElizaB]

59 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

I don’t think Anna will leave Josh; however, the likelihood of Josh returning diminishes with each and every day he is in jail.  I don’t believe Josh ever wanted children or to parent them.  Josh is going to be unemployable sex offender when he leaves. I can seeing him taking off for parts unknown writing the scathing tell all. 

I think Josh did want children- but I don't think he ever expected to parent them. For him, a lot of kids were a symbol of his "manhood" and were a way to market himself as a picture perfect family man. He wanted the photo op of him with his kids. However, he never planned to (and probably never did) anything to actually help with them. I read something somewhere (I know trusted source...) about him being pretty worthless around the house. What we have to remember though is that his culture enables this. If I was worn out and my husband was doing nothing to help my family and friends would definitely support me in telling my husband he was being worthless and that he needs to help. If Anna cries to her friends or family that Josh doesn't help she would be told that it wasn't his job to do so. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

David Waller seemed to be at her side during the trial- he won’t be advising divorce, college or anything else I’m sure. He may help her broker her allowance from JB.

Why would JB listen to Waller?

10 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

I was thinking along similar lines.  She has to be aware that Jill and Derek were able to force JB to pay them some amount of money for their time on the show, so a precedence has already been set.   Even if she does nothing else, she should have some money in an account all her own, so that if one day she does wake up and wants to get herself and the children away from their current situation, she has some cash on hand to help her do so.

I began wondering if inmates can be ordered to pay child support, but 1) Josh and Anna aren't divorced, so that's not even a legal issue at this point, and 2) unlikely, as inmates aren't earning any money while in prison.  But does Josh have any assets of his own?  Did Josh and Anna have assets in their name that were signed over to JB or a family trust when the scandals started to break?  If so, can those assets be clawed back into Josh and Anna's name, so that Anna could use them/sell them to provide for herself and the children?  

Anna does have options, even though all of them probably seem out of realm of possibility to her at this point in time.  She has been so completely indoctrinated into the cult, and has wilfully buried her head in the sand for so long -- that she may never be willing or able to take the steps necessary to truly be a strong advocate for her children and herself.

It will never happen, but in a perfect world she files for divorce and has her attorneys crawl through the assets that have been moved in and out of her and Josh's name to evaluate the true value of marital assets.

I have a feeling having lawyers crawl through his financial paperwork might be a less than pleasant experience for JB.  

12 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I think Josh did want children- but I don't think he ever expected to parent them. For him, a lot of kids were a symbol of his "manhood" and were a way to market himself as a picture perfect family man. He wanted the photo op of him with his kids. However, he never planned to (and probably never did) anything to actually help with them. I read something somewhere (I know trusted source...) about him being pretty worthless around the house. What we have to remember though is that his culture enables this. If I was worn out and my husband was doing nothing to help my family and friends would definitely support me in telling my husband he was being worthless and that he needs to help. If Anna cries to her friends or family that Josh doesn't help she would be told that it wasn't his job to do so. 

When they were engaged (or maybe newly married) they were asked about kids and she was all "however many God gives us" and he stated outright he'd be happy if God only gave them a few.

Not letting him off the hook, he had them....but I think he saw the big family as inevitable given he married into the cult but it wasn't something he wanted even at a pr level.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

You dont need a degree to teach in Arkansas-

what do you suggest she do to gain independence? 

Why do you think you don’t need a degree to teach in Arkansas?

Quote

Teacher Certification, Arkansas 

In order to become a teacher in Arkansas, candidates must earn a bachelor’s degree and meet specific education requirements, which vary based on the grade level and subject(s) taught. 

 

[EmmieJ]

18 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It will never happen, but in a perfect world she files for divorce and has her attorneys crawl through the assets that have been moved in and out of her and Josh's name to evaluate the true value of marital assets.

I have a feeling having lawyers crawl through his financial paperwork might be a less than pleasant experience for JB

Yes, in a more perfect world, Anna would retain an experienced family law attorney who would then retain a forensic accountant to sift through all the financial shenanigans - but in this situation, it's closer to fanfic than reality!  

I have mixed emotions when I talk about what Anna should do - because my life has been so much more fortunate than hers.  I was raised by parents who wanted me to live a successful, happy life, in whatever form that took.  They believed in higher education for all their children, and none of us were ever pushed into marriage or into having children.  I had a decent public school education, and then I went on to college and got a degree.  I have worked since I turned 16 and know how to support myself.  I was able to raise a child as a single parent, with the support of both family and friends.  I was raised Catholic but when I decided to stop going to church, my parents accepted that as my decision.  I have been able to live my life pretty much on my own terms.  My life experience is so vastly different from Anna's, so that's why I don't feel entirely comfortable judging her, because I can't truly understand her.  

On the other hand, I would have done anything in my power to protect my son from harm (and I still would do so even though he's a grown man and fully capable of taking care of himself).  I always felt that was some innate primal instinct - protect your young.  So why doesn't Anna seem to have that instinct?  I don't know  - maybe she thinks she is protecting her children, by staying on the Duggar compound, providing them with a roof over their heads and food to eat, and some sort of allowance for things like clothes and such.  

[Jana814]

54 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I think Josh did want children- but I don't think he ever expected to parent them. For him, a lot of kids were a symbol of his "manhood" and were a way to market himself as a picture perfect family man. He wanted the photo op of him with his kids. However, he never planned to (and probably never did) anything to actually help with them. I read something somewhere (I know trusted source...) about him being pretty worthless around the house. What we have to remember though is that his culture enables this. If I was worn out and my husband was doing nothing to help my family and friends would definitely support me in telling my husband he was being worthless and that he needs to help. If Anna cries to her friends or family that Josh doesn't help she would be told that it wasn't his job to do so. 

You are very right. He never had to lift a finger at home. He was treated as a king his entire life. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jana814

[Letgo]

10 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Why do you think you don’t need a degree to teach in Arkansas?

 

I was coming to ask this too. Anna has an Associate's in Early Childhood Education, I think. I seem to recall her talking about this when she and Josh were courting. It was most likely online and not in person at a community college. I doubt that would have been allowed. I can't think of any job she could do that would pay enough for daycare for her kids if she were out on her own. I think she is stuck with the Duggar family.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

There are a lot of problems with this cult, but the biggest red flag to me that I can point to when discussing it with other people is that they manage to subvert the natural bond and instinct to protect between a mother and her kids.  In favor of beating them to sit still on a blanket or in favor of staying with child molester husbands.  I am more devoted to my dog/cats/guinea pigs than some of these parents seem to be to their kids.

Have a dozen kids! Have two dozen! All precious blessing to be left on a shelf and ignored.

And no, that doesn't excuse Anna at all.

Edited January 31, 2022 by GuineaPigCourtship

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Tatar-tot said:

I don’t think Anna will leave Josh; however, the likelihood of Josh returning diminishes with each and every day he is in jail.  I don’t believe Josh ever wanted children or to parent them.  Josh is going to be unemployable sex offender when he leaves. I can seeing him taking off for parts unknown writing the scathing tell all. 

The only two people I know in real life who did prison terms (for drugs) ended up selling cars when they got out of prison. So maybe Josh will go back to his old job.🙄😆

Seriously, I am sure JB will support him when he gets out.  All else aside, Josh could write that tell-all book which JB would not like at all.

It is, however, quite possible that Josh will discover while in prison that he doesn’t want to go back to Anna, the kids, JB, etc.  So maybe he will leave.

It is also possible that he will find that he can gain status and credibility as the “reformed” back-to-Jesus person, maybe even start a ministry and give speeches. 🤷‍♀️

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

 All else aside, Josh could write that tell-all book which JB would not like at all.

I was curious about the Son of Sam laws and a little googling says they've been stuck down in may courts and aren't consistently enforced.  So this would be an option for him if he wanted to burn the bridge with his parents.

If he does maybe someone will pirate it so people can get the details without him profiting.  I hear a torrents can be handy for that sort of thing.  /s

[imokit]

1 hour ago, ElizaB said:

 I read something somewhere (I know trusted source...) about him being pretty worthless around the house. 

Did you see the car-lot evidence photos.  That would back up that source.

It was disgusting (and I have low standards).  Trash and clutter everywhere, unsanitary.  And that's not even acknowledging the horrific things he was doing there.

[Idlewild]

55 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Why would JB listen to Waller?

 

He’s a man, he has a positive public image among like minded people and has some influence/connections from the IBLP world where JB no doubt wants to get back on the speaking circuit having failed to get elected.

I realise JB is an arrogant arse who probably doesn’t take much notice of anyone else, but he’d probably at least hear Waller out whereas Anna wouldn’t even get to speak.

 

[Pammy]

I think if I were in a position to give advice to Anna, I'd be asking if her current situation was safe and stable.

If things are okay for a while, I'd definitely advise her to wait for sentencing, and to stay put for a while until she's got her ducks in a row. I don't think anybody is threatening her children's wellbeing right now. So, if that's the case, why not wait until she has a solid idea of what she wants to do and some means to execute her plans?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

He’s a man, he has a positive public image among like minded people and has some influence/connections from the IBLP world where JB no doubt wants to get back on the speaking circuit having failed to get elected.

I realise JB is an arrogant arse who probably doesn’t take much notice of anyone else, but he’d probably at least hear Waller out whereas Anna wouldn’t even get to speak.

 

The circuit thing makes sense, I didn't think of that.  Although I am sure JB would assure David he knows best when it comes to their overall needs, if Anna needed him to loosen the purse strings so she could visit her family or something an advocate might be helpful.

Although, I can't see David trying to tell another headship how to run his family.  I think he'd more likely tell Anna to pray rather than take up her cause to JB.

2 minutes ago, Pammy said:

I think if I were in a position to give advice to Anna, I'd be asking if her current situation was safe and stable.

If things are okay for a while, I'd definitely advise her to wait for sentencing, and to stay put for a while until she's got her ducks in a row. I don't think anybody is threatening her children's wellbeing right now. So, if that's the case, why not wait until she has a solid idea of what she wants to do and some means to execute her plans?

I completely agree with this.  The frustration comes from her not lying low until she has a plan, it's that she's probably thinking when it comes to this her ducks are already in a row.  

[Giraffe]

18 hours ago, Cam said:

She’ll have time to get to know her seven kids since her world won’t be consumed with the whole pregnancy landscape. That could be life changing in some ways. 

I’ve wondered about this. If she were on her own with her kids I could see this being a good time of reflection and deciding what she wants her life to look like going forward. In my opinion though she won’t do that if she moves into TTH or even just on Duggar property. It will be too easy to continue with the delusion that Josh is just “working late” and pretend like nothing’s changed. 
 

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe 2022 will be the year Anna decides to protect her children and get help from a real secularly trained therapist and strike out on her own but I’m not going to hold my breath. 

[Jackie3]

58 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

It is also possible that he will find that he can gain status and credibility as the “reformed” back-to-Jesus person, maybe even start a ministry and give speeches. 🤷‍♀️

I think that ship has sailed. It's hard to make a comeback after child porn. It crosses too many lines, even for fundies.

Someone mentioned that he'll be unemployable, and that is probably true. Most likely, though, he won't want employment. Their cult discourages employment and encourages entrepreneurship. He'll probably start a business, as he's done in the past. Probably an internet one, buying and selling stuff, so he can remain anonymous. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

31 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I’ve wondered about this. If she were on her own with her kids I could see this being a good time of reflection and deciding what she wants her life to look like going forward. In my opinion though she won’t do that if she moves into TTH or even just on Duggar property. It will be too easy to continue with the delusion that Josh is just “working late” and pretend like nothing’s changed. 
 

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe 2022 will be the year Anna decides to protect her children and get help from a real secularly trained therapist and strike out on her own but I’m not going to hold my breath. 

Anna already lives on Duggar property, in a remodeled warehouse. We still don’t know why they sold their house and moved there, but it’s a pretty safe bet that it involved Josh fucking up again.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Anna already lives on Duggar property, in a remodeled warehouse. We still don’t know why they sold their house and moved there, but it’s a pretty safe bet that it involved Josh fucking up again.

IIRC it was right around the time Josh was getting sued for some shady property sale.