(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[RosyDaisy]

1 hour ago, SimplyMe said:

This guy has some interesting insight on Caleb - his account is public, so I think posting this screenshot is ok.  Go to his page to read the rest that is cut off.  
 

This sounds conspiratorial of me, but would JB possibly be paying Caleb off to cast doubt on Josh’s guilt?  

I can't get past the rape apologetics.  Fuck all that noise.  Caleb was a grown-ass man who knew better.  I'm sick of purity culture and one's upbringing being used as excuses.  If this bitch truly wants to break the cycle, then she can start by stop excusing Caleb's actions and condemning them!

Edited January 21, 2022 by RosyDaisy

[arareyeah]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:24 AM, EmCatlyn said:

The “versions” referred to are translations, and I believe there are different translations of the Quran as well.  The difference, I suspect, is that people study the Quran in the original Arabic, not in one translation or another. ( I may be mistaken.  Please correct me if I am wrong.)

Translation inevitably involves interpretation, and the different “versions” of the Bible are essentially rival interpretations. (There is more involved since in some cases translations also choose different original sources, but it is still a question of interpretation.)

In English, the King James Version (KJV) which goes back to the 17th century, is the oldest translation still in print.   It’s beautiful, but aside from the interpretation issue, it is written in an archaic form of English.  Other translations try to use language that will make sense to the reader.

We study the Quran in the original Arabic, and depends on of the type of book you use, some will have translations of the verses in our language right next to it.

Well study here means you learn how to read and pronounce the content of the Quran in Arabic correctly, as recitating the Quran is part of our religious practice and we have to use the verses during our daily prayers. The thing is, you could memorize the whole content of the Quran and could recitate them properly but possibly you don't even remember the translations of those verses.

Arabic not being our language makes it pretty difficult. I only memorized several verses from the 30th chapter that I like to use during my daily prayers because they're shorter. 

In my country, we have ministry of religious affairs that gives the official translations for the Quran and its being used nationwide. 

If you want to really study the content of the Quran, usually it means studying with the scholars because they know how to interpret the Quran properly, why a certain verse was revealed, which verse came out first, how it correlates with which hadith (hadiths is more what the prophet said throughout his life as supplement. Muslims have to use Quran and hadiths as our guidance, but Quran trumps hadith), and how can you apply it in your daily life. My mom has a weekly session with her friends for this. 

[arareyeah]

1 hour ago, Smee said:

Sorry if this is an ignorant question, but does the Quran get translated into other languages much? I vaguely recall being told in a high school religion class that Muslims were strongly encouraged to learn Arabic and read from the Arabic at the mosque. Like how Jewish kids learn Hebrew as part of their bar mitzvah.

At the churches I have attended, there’s no prescribed translation but whoever is doing the bible reading that day might mention the translation they are reading from. It can be interesting to read along in a different translation and get a clearer picture of the meaning. But the differences are based on the fact that English is a language with so many words for very similar concepts, and a different grammar to the original languages. Generally it doesn’t make a huge difference to the overall meaning e.g. 

1 Corinthians 12:4-6

NIV:

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

ESV:

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

KJV:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Yes the Quran is translated into a lot of other languanges that has Muslim population no matter how small. We have to learn to read it in Arabic, but we rely on the translations to learn the meaning. I think because there's no difference in the Arabic version, the chance of someone mistranslated it is very small, especially nowadays with communication between nations are better than ever. I mean, I'm here in SE Asia and I could write to you guys, means I could ask someone in Saudi if the Quran translations I have is off the mark or not. 😂😂😂

The main problem in my religion is the Quran interpretations, not the translations. 

Like the verse that roughly said "you coud kill infindels". A proper interpretation will points out the time and why that verse came out (it was wartime with the Quraish tribe in Mecca), and why we should treat it as historical anecdote, not something to enact upon. But fundies will treat it as a sign to condemn and treat nonbelievers badly. And extremist, well, this is why we have 9/11 tragedy, sadly.

I think having a good scholar to learn from is key. Both of my parents are conservatives and very religious, but they never mandate me or my sister to wear hijab because they learnt why that verse about women covering themselves came out. My mom wears hijab on her own volition to show her faith. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, arareyeah said:

We study the Quran in the original Arabic, and depends on of the type of book you use, some will have translations of the verses in our language right next to it.

Well study here means you learn how to read and pronounce the content of the Quran in Arabic correctly, as recitating the Quran is part of our religious practice and we have to use the verses during our daily prayers. The thing is, you could memorize the whole content of the Quran and could recitate them properly but possibly you don't even remember the translations of those verses.

Arabic not being our language makes it pretty difficult. I only memorized several verses from the 30th chapter that I like to use during my daily prayers because they're shorter. 

In my country, we have ministry of religious affairs that gives the official translations for the Quran and its being used nationwide. 

If you want to really study the content of the Quran, usually it means studying with the scholars because they know how to interpret the Quran properly, why a certain verse was revealed, which verse came out first, how it correlates with which hadith (hadiths is more what the prophet said throughout his life as supplement. Muslims have to use Quran and hadiths as our guidance, but Quran trumps hadith), and how can you apply it in your daily life. My mom has a weekly session with her friends for this. 

Thanks for explaining.  It is pretty similar to how it was with European Christianity until the Protestant Reformation—the Bible and the worship were in Latin, and most Christians didn’t know Latin but relied on rote memorization and the interpretations of priests.  

After the Protestant Reformation, the Protestants switch to reading the Bible and praying in their own language, and that is where the King James Bible comes in. As the head of the Church of England, James commissioned a translation that could be used for worship in English.  It naturally used the English of the time, which was different from today’s English.

The Catholic church eventually authorized translations of the Bible into different local languages, but it took a long time before they switched from worship in Latin to worship in the local language(s).  In fact, the change happened when I was a little girl in the mid-1960s.  Catholics (and some denominations of Protestants) still rely on memorized prayers as part of their worship.  

The Christian Fundies we discuss here tend to oppose memorized prayers and make a big deal about reading the Bible for themselves, but as we’ve been discussing, the use of the KJV makes it hard for many of their followers to understand the text.  It is ironic that a translation that was meant to help people “read the word of God” for themselves,” is now difficult to read.  (This is one reason there are many translations: different groups are trying to find the Bible translation that will help people understand it better.)

What is your language @arareyeah ? Is it very different from Arabic?  

My first language was Spanish, which is a Romance language (derived from Latin) so Catholic Church Latin wasn’t as strange to me as it was for Catholics that only spoke English.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

19 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Thanks for explaining.  It is pretty similar to how it was with European Christianity until the Protestant Reformation—the Bible and the worship were in Latin, and most Christians didn’t know Latin but relied on rote memorization and the interpretations of priests.  

After the Protestant Reformation, the Protestants switch to reading the Bible and praying in their own language, and that is where the King James Bible comes in. As the head of the Church of England, James commissioned a translation that could be used for worship in English.  It naturally used the English of the time, which was different from today’s English.

The Catholic church eventually authorized translations of the Bible into different local languages, but it took a long time before they switched from worship in Latin to worship in the local language(s).  In fact, the change happened when I was a little girl in the mid-1960s.  Catholics (and some denominations of Protestants) still rely on memorized prayers as part of their worship.  

The Christian Fundies we discuss here tend to oppose memorized prayers and make a big deal about reading the Bible for themselves, but as we’ve been discussing, the use of the KJV makes it hard for many of their followers to understand the text.  It is ironic that a translation that was meant to help people “read the word of God” for themselves,” is now difficult to read.  (This is one reason there are many translations: different groups are trying to find the Bible translation that will help people understand it better.)

What is your language @arareyeah ? Is it very different from Arabic?  

My first language was Spanish, which is a Romance language (derived from Latin) so Catholic Church Latin wasn’t as strange to me as it was for Catholics that only spoke English.

Excellent post, but I wanted to point out that the KJV isn’t really in the English of the time. It was already archaic when it was published. The translators wanted it to sound old-fashioned. 

[Someone Out There]

Aside from being able to read something word for word, what about how words change meaning over time? For example the word "villain" in English was villager, but now it more along the lines of someone doing wrong, or the person who is against the hero. The bible would definitely have issues around this, I wonder if the Quran does as well, or maybe the Quran is somewhat protected as the meanings are also discussed?

[church_of_dog]

I just started reading a new book tonight, and even though there is no child abuse, sexual or otherwise, in the story, the plot nevertheless includes a description of someone learning how to download Tor and access the dark web.  I couldn't help but be a bit creeped out at that part of the story due to hearing all about it from Josh's case. 😊

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Excellent post, but I wanted to point out that the KJV isn’t really in the English of the time. It was already archaic when it was published. The translators wanted it to sound old-fashioned. 

Thanks.

You are right that the translators of the KJV (published 1611) deliberately chose language that was considered old-fashioned at the time. What I want to emphasize is that the language was not obsolete.  It was language that the people understood, even if it was “old-fashioned.”

The  KJV is in “Early Modern English.” (There are different dates given for EME, but even the narrowest span includes the period from 1500 to 1700.)  It is distinct from Middle English and not quite what we speak today (generally referred to as “Late Modern English”).

What has happened, as you know, is that over the years is that EME (in both its earliest and later forms) has become less accessible to the ordinary reader.  This is the point I think is most important: the KJV was written so the ordinary reader could understand the Bible better.  It no longer serves that purpose.

[OrchidBlossom]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:26 PM, Alisamer said:

This is the key to this whole forum, I think.

Here's the handy dandy graphic my church once posted about some of the many different translations of the Bible. Generally they all want to be as accurate as possible, but take different paths to get there. Like is getting each specific word translated exactly right more important, or is making sure each thought or sentence means the same as the source material (even if the words are not exact) more important? My church (Baptist, in the South, but a bit more liberal than many) if I remember correctly "officially" chose the ESV for the pew Bibles, but everyone is encouraged to use the Bible that they prefer. Our previous pastor would frequently use more than one translation to help clarify things, and even refer back to the original wording in some cases. Anyone doing a reading in church uses whichever Bible they choose. One lady always uses KJV. Others use different ones. I think my dad carries The Living Bible to church, maybe. 

You can even get Bibles that are "parallel" Bibles with multiple translations in the same book, which sounds cool - you can look up a verse and see it in multiple translations.

The file is a bit unclear, what does the very furthest left say?

[OrchidBlossom]

12 hours ago, arareyeah said:

Yes the Quran is translated into a lot of other languanges that has Muslim population no matter how small. We have to learn to read it in Arabic, but we rely on the translations to learn the meaning. I think because there's no difference in the Arabic version, the chance of someone mistranslated it is very small, especially nowadays with communication between nations are better than ever. I mean, I'm here in SE Asia and I could write to you guys, means I could ask someone in Saudi if the Quran translations I have is off the mark or not. 😂😂😂

The main problem in my religion is the Quran interpretations, not the translations. 

Like the verse that roughly said "you coud kill infindels". A proper interpretation will points out the time and why that verse came out (it was wartime with the Quraish tribe in Mecca), and why we should treat it as historical anecdote, not something to enact upon. But fundies will treat it as a sign to condemn and treat nonbelievers badly. And extremist, well, this is why we have 9/11 tragedy, sadly.

I think having a good scholar to learn from is key. Both of my parents are conservatives and very religious, but they never mandate me or my sister to wear hijab because they learnt why that verse about women covering themselves came out. My mom wears hijab on her own volition to show her faith. 

 

Thanks for explaining! I read much of the Quran years ago in college, I'm an atheist but I grew up in a predominantly Catholic community and I wanted to expand my horizons and understand other backgrounds, so I tried to read at least most of the holy books of other religions. I got my version of the Quran from a local mosque that did a sort of meet and greet thing where we went down to the mosque for services and then a lunch with members, where we could hang out with them and eat and ask questions. I remember being a little sad, as it was post-9/11 and there seemed to be a strong atmosphere of 'we promise we are normal folks!' at first, and it sucked that they felt like that had to be sort of clarified. But the food was amazing and they answered a ton of questions for us and stuff. One of the things I remember most distinctly was talking about the hijab and those passages, because there were women wearing different I guess 'levels' of covering, and they were explaining why they made those choices and such. So interesting.

I remember wondering then how they made/chose a translation, since I noticed that they all seemed to have Qurans in Arabic which they read. One of the little kids there had recently started learning Arabic and I remember he was so proud and he was showing us different words he had learned and what they meant. Very cute.

Edited January 22, 2022 by OrchidBlossom
word choice/clarity

[Cam]

I’m not sure how to explain my thoughts about God, but basically I don’t think a true God would be so complicated that only scholars and well-read individuals, and more specifically, those with penises, have the ability to translate and explain just what God’s intentions are. That alone smacks of man-made privilege. In this way, religion creates a hierarchy that portends trouble. Human nature is such that there will always be those who exploit the hierarchy for their own personal gain. How ungodly. 
 

To my way of thinking, God should be understandable to anyone.

[Cults-r-us]

12 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Excellent post, but I wanted to point out that the KJV isn’t really in the English of the time. It was already archaic when it was published. The translators wanted it to sound old-fashioned. 

I used to see a Bible written in columns with 3-4 translations side by side.

[onekidanddone]

8 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

I just started reading a new book tonight, and even though there is no child abuse, sexual or otherwise, in the story, the plot nevertheless includes a description of someone learning how to download Tor and access the dark web.  I couldn't help but be a bit creeped out at that part of the story due to hearing all about it from Josh's case. 😊

What is the title?

[church_of_dog]

2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

What is the title?

The Collective, by Alison Gaylin.

https://www.amazon.com/The-Collective-A-Novel/dp/B08K9F1PK1/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3JMJCALPW2WLM&keywords=the+collective+alison+gaylin&qid=1642866626&sprefix=the+collective%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-1

Report back if you read it!  I like it so far but I'm barely 25% in.

Edited January 22, 2022 by church_of_dog

[arareyeah]

16 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The Christian Fundies we discuss here tend to oppose memorized prayers and make a big deal about reading the Bible for themselves, but as we’ve been discussing, the use of the KJV makes it hard for many of their followers to understand the text.  It is ironic that a translation that was meant to help people “read the word of God” for themselves,” is now difficult to read.  (This is one reason there are many translations: different groups are trying to find the Bible translation that will help people understand it better.)

What is your language @arareyeah ? Is it very different from Arabic?  

My first language was Spanish, which is a Romance language (derived from Latin) so Catholic Church Latin wasn’t as strange to me as it was for Catholics that only spoke English.

This is interesting because among Muslim conservatives and fundies memorizing the whole Quran in Arabic is something they take pride upon. But yeah, only in Arabic because a lot of them won't be able to translates it let alone interpret it properly.

Maybe because recitating the Quran daily is highly encouraged even if you're a moderate, so they take memorizing it as something special. For me personally memorizing the whole book is pointless if I can't understand the meaning properly.

2 sides of the same coin I guess 😂😂😂

My language is Indonesian. Arabic is of course wholly different because they have different alphabet/script. Like I could read the Quran but if you take me to Gulf countries and point to random signs, I only able to say what alphabet they are but not how to pronounce it because in Gulf countries the alphabet won't have signifiers on how to pronounce it. Say the script Lam (L) can be read as La, Li, or Lu and in non Arabic speaking countries they have some sort of signifiers to indicate which one they are. In Gulf countries, usually they won't have the signifiers.  So I could tell it's L, but won't be able to tell if it's La, Li, or Lu.

Speaking of Bible translations, because in my country we have many region specific languages (like, full blown languages, not just dialects), IIRC we do have Bible in those languages. 

12 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Aside from being able to read something word for word, what about how words change meaning over time? For example the word "villain" in English was villager, but now it more along the lines of someone doing wrong, or the person who is against the hero. The bible would definitely have issues around this, I wonder if the Quran does as well, or maybe the Quran is somewhat protected as the meanings are also discussed?

That unfortunately I won't be able to answer because Arabic is no my first language. But I assume because there's no changes in content of the Quran itself and Arabic is still being widely used by people worldwide, I think even if there's a difference in modern Arabic, we still use the old meanings.

[FluffySnowball]

13 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Aside from being able to read something word for word, what about how words change meaning over time? For example the word "villain" in English was villager, but now it more along the lines of someone doing wrong, or the person who is against the hero. The bible would definitely have issues around this, I wonder if the Quran does as well, or maybe the Quran is somewhat protected as the meanings are also discussed?

As I’ve studied Islamic theology and am Muslim myself, I just have to chip in. the topic is just great. 

That’s why Muslim Tafsīr scholars (scholars focusing on the interpretation of the Qurān) place such a great emphasis on the study of Classical Arabic. MSA (modern standard Arabic) is spoken and written today, but the Qurān was revealed in Classical Arabic. Both “versions” are the same language, of course, and modern native speakers also understand Classical Arabic, but to come to a better understanding of the Qurān, one still needs to analyze specifics such as how word meanings have changed over time, differing grammar patterns, etc. 

As for translations of the Qurān into other languages, they all are some type of interpretation. There are words in the Qurān that might mean a multitude of different things so, with scholars debating their possible meanings and coming to different conclusions, so translating the text means interpreting it to a certain degree.

Still, there are some translations that are considered better than others and the ones I tend to read for scientific purposes aren’t that “fun” to read because in order to convey as much of the Arabic meaning as possible, many annotations, etc. are needed and the text is full of notes in brackets and footnotes. Also, the Arabic original is very poetic, which cannot be felt in any English or German translations that I know. 

 

[arareyeah]

6 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Thanks for explaining! I read much of the Quran years ago in college, I'm an atheist but I grew up in a predominantly Catholic community and I wanted to expand my horizons and understand other backgrounds, so I tried to read at least most of the holy books of other religions. I got my version of the Quran from a local mosque that did a sort of meet and greet thing where we went down to the mosque for services and then a lunch with members, where we could hang out with them and eat and ask questions. I remember being a little sad, as it was post-9/11 and there seemed to be a strong atmosphere of 'we promise we are normal folks!' at first, and it sucked that they felt like that had to be sort of clarified. But the food was amazing and they answered a ton of questions for us and stuff. One of the things I remember most distinctly was talking about the hijab and those passages, because there were women wearing different I guess 'levels' of covering, and they were explaining why they made those choices and such. So interesting.

I remember wondering then how they made/chose a translation, since I noticed that they all seemed to have Qurans in Arabic which they read. One of the little kids there had recently started learning Arabic and I remember he was so proud and he was showing us different words he had learned and what they meant. Very cute.

I'm not sure how it is when it comes to translations in the US because in my country we have translations that is used nationwide no matter which mosque you go, but at least the English translations that I found on the internet has the same meaning if I translates it to my own language. 

As for the veils, people interpret it differently. What I hate in my country is the conservatives and fundies glorifies Arabic cultures to the point they'll copy whatever customs and traditions without thinking  Like people actually wears niqab or burqa willingly, even wears gloves in my extremely hot and humid tropical country because they thought that's what the Quran said, the Arabic people do it, and it will makes them appear more pious. I went to Saudi for pilgrimage, and after a week there I realized the ladies wear niqab everywhere because with such arid desert climate like that, wearing niqab is much more reasonable to protect the skin on your face. Also during Hajj, which is the ultimate act of worship a Muslim can do, you're not allowed to cover your face nor your palms.  If I pointed that out to them, they never able to give me any answers. They're exaggerating parts of our religious teachings while it's explicitly prohibited to do so. It's maddening.

Personally I won't wear hijab because a lot of people here wear it to appear more pious and still act like devil incarnate. The equivalent of fundies frumpers I guess? All show, no substance.

[FluffySnowball]

1 hour ago, arareyeah said:

My language is Indonesian. Arabic is of course wholly different because they have different alphabet/script. Like I could read the Quran but if you take me to Gulf countries and point to random signs, I only able to say what alphabet they are but not how to pronounce it because in Gulf countries the alphabet won't have signifiers on how to pronounce it. Say the script Lam (L) can be read as La, Li, or Lu and in non Arabic speaking countries they have some sort of signifiers to indicate which one they are. In Gulf countries, usually they won't have the signifiers.  So I could tell it's L, but won't be able to tell if it's La, Li, or Lu.

To put it simply, vowels are hardly ever written in Modern Standard Arabic texts such as newspapers. To my knowledge, it's the same in Hebrew where only consonants are actually written.

In Arabic, vowels are the lines above or below consonants (the points you might often see when looking at Arabic texts, however, belong to the consonant letters) so texts with all the vowels written out often look a bit “crowded” and thus, they are left out. 

One important exception: The Qurān is written with all vowels so as to avoid misunderstandings, yet most other texts aren’t. 

3 minutes ago, arareyeah said:

As for the veils, people interpret it differently. What I hate in my country is the conservatives and fundies glorifies Arabic cultures to the point they'll copy whatever customs and traditions without thinking  Like people actually wears niqab or burqa willingly, even wears gloves in my extremely hot and humid tropical country because they thought that's what the Quran said, the Arabic people do it, and it will makes them appear more pious. I went to Saudi for pilgrimage, and after a week there I realized the ladies wear niqab everywhere because with such arid desert climate like that, wearing niqab is much more reasonable to protect the skin on your face. Also during Hajj, which is the ultimate act of worship a Muslim can do, you're not allowed to cover your face nor your palms.  If I pointed that out to them, they never able to give me any answers. They're exaggerating parts of our religious teachings while it's explicitly prohibited to do so. It's maddening.

I know quite a few Indonesians and study the language myself and one thing I often hear from them is that Saudi (and generally Gulfi)  money has caused many negative changes within Indonesian society during the last few decades.

With Saudi-funded schools, mosques, and even hospitals, Hanbali thought is introduced into the country and especially people from poorer backgrounds benefit from the educational and/or medical services while being sucked into such a world view that - historically speaking - is rather foreign to Islam in Indonesia. Is that an observation you’ve also made, @arareyeah? 

[arareyeah]

4 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

To put it simply, vowels are hardly ever written in Modern Standard Arabic texts such as newspapers. To my knowledge, it's the same in Hebrew where only consonants are actually written.

In Arabic, vowels are the lines above or below consonants (the points you might often see when looking at Arabic texts, however, belong to the consonant letters) so texts with all the vowels written out often look a bit “crowded” and thus, they are left out. 

One important exception: The Qurān is written with all vowels so as to avoid misunderstandings, yet most other texts aren’t. 

YES THANK YOU! That was what I was trying to explain!

Oh but when I was a kid, my dad had this Quran he brought from Saudi after he went to Hajj and it was consonant only. That kind of Quran was a pretty popular Hajj or Umrah souvenir in before the 2000s that even now we still joked that if you could read the consonant only Quran, it means you're truly pious. We call them "Arab gundul" which basically translates into "bald Arabic". 😂😂😂

[FluffySnowball]

19 minutes ago, arareyeah said:

I'm not sure how it is when it comes to translations in the US because in my country we have translations that is used nationwide no matter which mosque you go, but at least the English translations that I found on the internet has the same meaning if I translates it to my own language. 

As for the veils, people interpret it differently. What I hate in my country is the conservatives and fundies glorifies Arabic cultures to the point they'll copy whatever customs and traditions without thinking  Like people actually wears niqab or burqa willingly, even wears gloves in my extremely hot and humid tropical country because they thought that's what the Quran said, the Arabic people do it, and it will makes them appear more pious. I went to Saudi for pilgrimage, and after a week there I realized the ladies wear niqab everywhere because with such arid desert climate like that, wearing niqab is much more reasonable to protect the skin on your face. Also during Hajj, which is the ultimate act of worship a Muslim can do, you're not allowed to cover your face nor your palms.  If I pointed that out to them, they never able to give me any answers. They're exaggerating parts of our religious teachings while it's explicitly prohibited to do so. It's maddening.

Personally I won't wear hijab because a lot of people here wear it to appear more pious and still act like devil incarnate. The equivalent of fundies frumpers I guess? All show, no substance.

This is just my personal opinion, but the fact that it’s actually forbidden to cover your face while praying proves to me that niqab is not Islamic whatsoever. Hijab, the veiling of one’s hair, is a whole different matter, but to me, if you can’t pray with a niqab, you just ought not to wear it at all.

Historically speaking, it’s certain that female members of the early Muslim community around prophet Muhammad didn’t cover their faces at all times. Was face covering a common practice in Arabia and other desert areas of the world back then (and to some extends also today)? Sure, it was a way to protect the skin, be able to breath during sand storms, etc. and I’m sure we’ve all seen photos of Touareg men in northwest Africa who until now wear bright blue turbans and face veils in their desert climate. But face veiling isn’t an Islamic matter IMO. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by FluffySnowball

[arareyeah]

43 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

I know quite a few Indonesians and study the language myself and one thing I often hear from them is that Saudi (and generally Gulfi)  money has caused many negative changes within Indonesian society during the last few decades.

With Saudi-funded schools, mosques, and even hospitals, Hanbali thought is introduced into the country and especially people from poorer backgrounds benefit from the educational and/or medical services while being sucked into such a world view that - historically speaking - is rather foreign to Islam in Indonesia. Is that an observation you’ve also made, @arareyeah? 

Absolutely. At least after Soeharto's fall in 1998. He was a military dictator, and kinda curbed religious influences of any kind during his reign.

The thing is, it becomes very visible especially in recent years. If you guys think the Duggars and Bates are bad enough, but at the very least their market is still quite niche. The Muslim fundies in my country could reach bigger audience because they're front and center in mainstream daily media, in every channels you could think of. I'm talking tens of millions of fans that will actively spew toxic, harmfuls and misleading beliefs they have to everyone.

I live in the capital city and the governor mandate since last year is if you want to obtain marriage certificate, both of you have to be vaccinated for covid and for the ladies, a tetanus shot. I saw the lady in niqab absolutely went livid because she refused to do so and said things like vaccine is not in Quran and hadith, the government is America's and China's minion blah blah blah (The US and China hatred IS REAL with these conservatives and fundies). The kicker is, she wears thin niqab and wears no mask underneath, most likely thinking her niqab is enough to protect her.  

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, arareyeah said:

This is interesting because among Muslim conservatives and fundies memorizing the whole Quran in Arabic is something they take pride upon. But yeah, only in Arabic because a lot of them won't be able to translates it let alone interpret it properly.

Maybe because recitating the Quran daily is highly encouraged even if you're a moderate, so they take memorizing it as something special. For me personally memorizing the whole book is pointless if I can't understand the meaning properly.

2 sides of the same coin I guess 😂😂😂

My language is Indonesian. Arabic is of course wholly different because they have different alphabet/script. Like I could read the Quran but if you take me to Gulf countries and point to random signs, I only able to say what alphabet they are but not how to pronounce it because in Gulf countries the alphabet won't have signifiers on how to pronounce it. Say the script Lam (L) can be read as La, Li, or Lu and in non Arabic speaking countries they have some sort of signifiers to indicate which one they are. In Gulf countries, usually they won't have the signifiers.  So I could tell it's L, but won't be able to tell if it's La, Li, or Lu.

Speaking of Bible translations, because in my country we have many region specific languages (like, full blown languages, not just dialects), IIRC we do have Bible in those languages. 

That unfortunately I won't be able to answer because Arabic is no my first language. But I assume because there's no changes in content of the Quran itself and Arabic is still being widely used by people worldwide, I think even if there's a difference in modern Arabic, we still use the old meanings.

I have had Muslim students whose first language was Arabic and the impression I got is that the Arabic of the Quran is different from the everyday Arabic they speak, but not so different that they can’t understand it.

The reason that the Protestant Reformation largely centered on translation of the Bible was that many Christians in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance wanted to understand what they were reading and memorizing, not just repeating it.  So in a sense, your own experience shows why translations became popular among Christian.

The reason that translation is not encouraged is the flip side of this. If every translation involves interpretation, then there is inevitably going to be a drift of meaning and the original “Word of God,” is going to get lost.  The problem that Christianity had was that to read the texts in the “original language” would require knowledge of at least two (Hebrew and Koine Greek) and possibly three (there may have been some texts originally in Aramaic) languages.  When the Bible was codified (when it was agreed what texts would go in the canon) the dominant language was Latin, so the Christian Bible was, for many centuries, read only in Latin—that is, in translation,  The Quran, on the other hand, was all written in Arabic, so the argument against using translations for worship is stronger.

Personally, I am with you.  I find it frustrating to repeat what I don’t understand.

[OrchidBlossom]

14 hours ago, arareyeah said:

I live in the capital city and the governor mandate since last year is if you want to obtain marriage certificate, both of you have to be vaccinated for covid and for the ladies, a tetanus shot. I saw the lady in niqab absolutely went livid because she refused to do so and said things like vaccine is not in Quran and hadith, the government is America's and China's minion blah blah blah (The US and China hatred IS REAL with these conservatives and fundies). The kicker is, she wears thin niqab and wears no mask underneath, most likely thinking her niqab is enough to protect her.  

I think it is fair to say that hatred is real in fundies of all flavors, sadly. Only difference is what they hate.

[Cults-r-us]

4 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I think it is fair to say that hatred is real in fundies of all flavors, sadly. Only difference is what they hate.

Anything called "fundamental" is a red flag in churches.

[Freejin]

Does anyone have a sense of whether this appeal will get off the ground at all? There’s no chance he’ll get off, right?