[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[Free Felicity]

Even if Josh was able to get to a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US, it doesn't mean that country would be obligated to keep him. I can't imagine too many countries wanting to harbor him, treaty or not. Nothing in it for them, really. Despite his work in Washington, I doubt he has enough information that it would be worth a country putting up with him and his reputation. 

[quiversR4hunting]

13 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I made a similar suggestion, not just because they might think it would help with sentencing but because it would be a way around the problem of “who will supervise him?”  If the director or one of the head people in one of the Jesus rehabs took responsibility for supervising him, the Duggars might feel it would look better, and they might actually believe it would be better for Josh.

I don’t know if such an arrangement would be acceptable to the court, nor do I know if there is a Jesus rehab in Arkansas that would go along with this plan.

But it would make sense given the past history of the family. ??‍♀️

There are ATI facilities in Arkansas, so I would say yes they would take him in but I don't think the Judge will allow it. 

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

So what happens at the hearing thing tomorrow? How do they decide if someone is granted bond or not?

To add to what @Antimony states, the Judge has already said that Josh needs a guardian and someone else posted those requirements (boils down to a 24/7 babysitter, which is why a half-way or ATI Jesus rehab might fit the bill) must be met. If they haven't found a babysitter for Josh that the court approves of, he won't get bond. Also if his bond is high and granted and the family needs to use bails bondsman they might be able to find one that is willing to take a risk based on the what the Judge is already requiring. 

[Coy Koi]

9 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Just a thought...because I really can't see JB & M letting the golden boy go down. 

JB & M are narcissists, and as such, they care about their kids primarily as tributes to themselves. Sure, they're stupid and stubborn and it's taking them much longer than it should to accept the truth about Josh, but once they finally do, they'll drop him like a hot potato.

[Alaniel]

Just one point to keep in mind, not all people engaged in sex work can speak up. Those who are in very bad situations - like the mostly Eastern European women and young girls having to "work" in the Western European "sex industry" (in their case it's rape, not work, hence the scare quotes...) have no way of making their voices heard in conversations like this. People who have otherwise been traumatised by their experiences with sex work might also be much less likely to be open to a bunch of strangers about their experiences. In a conversation like this one, therefore, it seems much more likely that it will be people with good or neutral experiences sharing their stories. Which means that, by saying we must listen to their perspective first and foremost and saying they must "lead" any conversation on sex work, we run the risk of inadvertantly privileging the perspective of one side of the industry, at the expense of the perspective of people who might be currently suffering very real abuse, because they're not in this industry of their own free will and have much less ability to make themselves heard in an online discussion.

When this discussion started, I actually did some googling and came across both an interview with a  woman from Bulgaria forced to do sex work (on SPIEGEL for the Germans, so I'd say mostly a "reputable source") and an OSCE estimate (although only mentioned in an interview) of 100 000 -150 000 women and girls from mostly Eastern European countries who work in Western European prostitution. This is the reason why I spoke about "Eastern European" above.

I want to make it clear that none of this means that I think sex workers in general - i.e. those who are not forced to do the job - don't deserve respect and dignity just as any other person or that their jobs should be looked down upon because it's "dirty" or "cheap" or whatever other nonsense narrow-minded people might come up with. If this is what they choose, they should not only be able to do it like with any other job, they should be able to talk about it without shame or "moral outrage" and also have the ability to organize and put up protections for themselves (which requires legalisation, I think).

But, there are two sides to this industry. Please, let's not silence and deny either of them.  I get that the knee-jerk reaction against any criticism of the sex work industry is a result of decades if not centuries of shaming, devaluation and disempowerment of those people who for whatever reason work in it, even if they voluntarily choose to do so. Getting rid of these negative attitudes is absolutely right and justified.

But do we have to pretend that there is nothing - or at most very little - wrong with the industry and thereby ignore the actual suffering of people (of all genders) who are not doing this because they want to? Can't we aknowledge both sides in discussions like this? Those who choose this profession should be treated with the same respect as any other member of the workforce, those who are forced into it should be actively searched out, freed and compensated for their suffering and trauma.

And those who profit of said suffering or use a sevice without being 1000 percent sure that the service provider is acting of their own free will, should be kicked off the planet. Because, yes, it is still your responsibility to make sure your partner really consents to what you're doing, even if you "paid for it".

One last point (I was trying to write a very short post, I swear): I'm from a very leftist, working class, trade union adjacent family, so I've heard about exploitation in the workplace for basically my entire life. I still think that there is no comparable form of exploitation than one that invades and uses another persons body in a sexual manner against their will. It's possible that others feel differently and I don't want to judge anyone who does. I'm aware of the probably good intentions behind the arguments that have been made in this thread about this aspect, but it still makes me uncomfortable enough to add my opinion on it.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Leaving aside how JB would get Josh to Mexico, and whether he would be extradited, Mexico isn’t that far away and it’s a small world now. The tabloids would be after him there too, maybe even more so than when he’s in boring small-town Arkansas. They certainly found Meghan Markle’s dad. And Josh’s sexual tastes are well known now. Would his accountability partner be able to keep people who want to make money off of him away? Put those two problems (tabloids and traffickers) together, and you have a complete disaster. It definitely wouldn’t solve JB’s Josh problem.

[MrsFoxx]

14 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Wanting to be paid and calling JB out on it? 

I grew up with "you never sue church family or family" because of this verse. I'm guessing this is why Jill is out. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, Free Felicity said:

Despite his work in Washington, I doubt he has enough information that it would be worth a country putting up with him and his reputation. 

I doubt his work in Washington gave him enough information on how to use a stapler properly.  

8 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

JB & M are narcissists, and as such, they care about their kids primarily as tributes to themselves. Sure, they're stupid and stubborn and it's taking them much longer than it should to accept the truth about Josh, but once they finally do, they'll drop him like a hot potato.

No one knows, but my gut is they've accepted the truth about Josh a long time ago.  I have never seen the golden boy thing others have, while I could see JB favored Jill just by how he talked to her...but if it was there I think it was gone the first time he embarrassed the family.  

I think they've kept him around not to help him, but to attempt to keep him under control so he doesn't do something else to embarrass them.  Does anyone really believe Smuggar wouldn't have left ages ago Anna if he's been shunned and expected to support her and the kids they had then on his own?  They each cut a deal with the devil and Smuggar traded in freedom for a life where he gets a free ride where his only job is knocking up his wife and JB traded the expenses of that to keep an eye on the one most likely to crash the brand.

IMO JB and M have been in damage control mode with Josh since he was a teenager.  But they can't control this damage and it has to be killing them.

Edited May 4, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[AprilQuilt]

2 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I suspect a LOT of the married Duggars are kind of holding their breath at this point, waiting to see what happens. Some of them might double down and support the family, but some might take the opportunity to distance themselves. I think Jeremy and Jinger will distance, and JD and Abbie might also, if the verdict is guilty.

The phrase that keeps coming to my mind lately is 'things fall apart; the centre cannot hold'. The centre of the extended Duggar family has been lollie & pop for a long time but yes I think the kidults have been drifting away into their own lives for some time now, and are actually kind of unwilling to circle the wagons in the same way as they did in 2015 when fewer of them had families/lives of their own outside the nuclear family, and didn't know what life might be beyond it and the show.

I suspect that, for some, this is a good opportunity to make a bit more of a break. If the show gets cancelled, a lot of that drift may well be organic too and won't involve having to stand up to JB's wrath as poor Jill did. If any kidults didn't feel brave enough/didn't have their ducks in a row to distance themselves before now, this may be quite a gift.

[OrchidBlossom]

@Alaniel FWIW I think at least one person on this thread was open about their negative experiences in sex work. Of course I believe that person should have the same voice as anyone who had a positive experience. I just think telling anyone who is or has been in sex work what they need or want is super patronizing, as is implying that they should just go get a different job, as if jobs just grow on trees and sure, you don't like the fruit on the "sex work" tree, go next door and grab some fruit off that tree see if you like it better. 

It's a complicated issue, like most issues, but I also find the "its all good" or "its all bad" narrative frustrating. Let's talk about how we can make it a better, safer, easier profession for anyone who chooses it, make society/capitalism less coercive so people don't feel it is their only option, and make safety for those who have been forced into it a priority. All these things can be done, and all should be talked about when we discuss approaching solutions to the (admittedly quite severe) problems in sex work.

[apiscue]

In my opinion there are two sides: Jimbob's side and the side that escaped his control.

One side will only do what Jimbob authorizes and the other what they want.

[MrsFoxx]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

I keep going over this in my head and I just cannot understand. Jill did what she was supposed to do - leave and cleave and all that crap.

She's still the bigger sinner here, the black sheep, whatever else you want to call it. 

I also think there  must be something else in DimWit's head about this - Amy, the rebel Duggar seems more welcome than Jill is. I wish I could understand his thought process although I'm sure it's nothing more than "Jill made me look bad and lost me money"

I also think that this is pretty normal in fucked up/narcissistic family structures. 

The golden child doesn't have to BE GOOD to be the golden child, and the scapegoat is frequently the one who questions the unhealthy family systems. 

not that I speak from experience....

[Coy Koi]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No one knows, but my gut is they've accepted the truth about Josh a long time ago.  I have never seen the golden boy thing others have, while I could see JB favored Jill just by how he talked to her...but if it was there I think it was gone the first time he embarrassed the family.  

Yeah, I think it's likely that they'll need to just accept that supporting him in any way is a lost cause. I don't really have a clue about if he was ever their golden boy. I never really watch any video of any of them, so I can't judge by that. I feel like JB must have been absolutely furious at him so many times by now, especially now. But not for the right reasons.

[Jackie3]

3 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

I feel like JB must have been absolutely furious at him so many times by now, especially now. But not for the right reasons.

Of course for the right reasons. You think he was happy that Josh was touching his daughters? JB seemed quite fond of his girls, particularly Jill. I am sure that news sent disgust and anger through his system, and I have no doubt he was furious at Josh. That's a "right reason", if ever there was one.

JB lost his reality show as well, and I'm sure he was pissed about that. I guess that's a "wrong reason" though I can understand being angry at losing a large source of income and exposure, if that's the sort of thing you want. Personally, I think it was best for the minor children that the show died.

[Coy Koi]

1 minute ago, Jackie3 said:

Of course for the right reasons. You think he was happy that Josh was touching his daughters? JB seemed quite fond of his girls, particularly Jill. I am sure that news sent disgust and anger through his system, and I have no doubt he was furious at Josh. That's a "right reason", if ever there was one.

JB lost his reality show as well, and I'm sure he was pissed about that. I guess that's a "wrong reason" though I can understand being angry at losing a large source of income and exposure, if that's the sort of thing you want. Personally, I think it was best for the minor children that the show died.

He's wasn't unhappy about it enough to take any real action to protect his daughters. He was unhappy enough to take action to try to protect his reputation and ability to make money.

Seriously? Does this still need to be explained?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

I feel like JB must have been absolutely furious at him so many times by now, especially now. But not for the right reasons.

This.  No doubt he's furious about the embarrassment and financial hit to his brand, also had to be a hit to his power within their cult.  And the embarrassment making Michelle screech like a banshee couldn't have been pleasant.  

Fury over how he harmed his sisters?  Not per his performance on Megyn Kelly and putting the girls out there for damage control.   Fury over him contributing to the victimization of children with this last crime?  Not per their statement that they hope it will be resolved in a timely manner and that they love him.  

When he gets furious over something besides his pocketbook, his control issues, and his ego I hope someone will let me know.

[Alisamer]

34 minutes ago, Free Felicity said:

Even if Josh was able to get to a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US, it doesn't mean that country would be obligated to keep him. I can't imagine too many countries wanting to harbor him, treaty or not. Nothing in it for them, really. Despite his work in Washington, I doubt he has enough information that it would be worth a country putting up with him and his reputation. 

I think (but am not sure) that Brazil still has a thing where if you're the parent of a Brazilian child you can't be extradited (perhaps until the child is an adult?). So if he was going to flee, he could do the one thing he's decent at (knocking someone up) and avoid extradition that way. If that's still a thing.

That would certainly be the tabloid-perfect scenario, anyway. 

In reality? I think they'll find somebody to babysit him until he's either ruled innocent or sentenced to prison time. I'd be amazed if Josh tried to flee. 

I could see him try to skip out on his babysitter to hook up with Anna (or someone else), maybe, but not flee. I think unless the case against him is super shaky (unlikely) he'll take a plea deal and end up in prison, where he'll do an exclusive interview in a year or two with whatever crime reporter or documentary producer wants to visit.

[Queen Of Hearts]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

I do think Josh would be a flight risk...do you know that John David is a pilot? I have no doubt that JB would put the golden boy on a plane to Mexico and that would be that. 

Not sure why this is being down voted but I agree that he could be a flight risk.  Though I personally doubt John David (I heard he is a pilot!) would do anything shady, there are MANY in that cult with planes, connections in Mexico, and a real desire to say FU to the US government.  For that reason alone I agree he could be a flight risk. The saving grace is he is not smart enough to pull it off on his own and hopefully no one is dumb enough to help him.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

38 minutes ago, Alaniel said:

I still think that there is no comparable form of exploitation than one that invades and uses another persons body in a sexual manner against their will. It's possible that others feel differently and I don't want to judge anyone who does.

I'll judge anyone who feels differently all day long.

I just want to point out that no one, in any post on these threads, has said one word in support of anyone doing anything against their will.  If that were be espoused I feel sure it would have been confronted by everyone posting on the topic and then some.

It's complex situation and reasonable people can disagree, but no reasonable person can feel non-consensual sexual activity is okay and absolutely no one here was advocating for that.

[SassyPants]

11 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This.  No doubt he's furious about the embarrassment and financial hit to his brand, also had to be a hit to his power within their cult.  And the embarrassment making Michelle screech like a banshee couldn't have been pleasant.  

Fury over how he harmed his sisters?  Not per his performance on Megyn Kelly and putting the girls out there for damage control.   Fury over him contributing to the victimization of children with this last crime?  Not per their statement that they hope it will be resolved in a timely manner and that they love him.  

When he gets furious over something besides his pocketbook, his control issues, and his ego I hope someone will let me know.

And this is why Jill might be particularly upset or pissed off. Having to realize and accept that ultimately your father loves money and control over all else had to floor her. How does that fact dovetail with JB’s purported Godly, family life? I’m mad FOR Jill and how she and her siblings were bamboozled by their parents.

 And I agree ? % about JB his pocketbook, control issues and ego! 

[OrchidBlossom]

5 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Not sure why this is being down voted but I agree that he could be a flight risk.  Though I personally doubt John David (I heard he is a pilot!) would do anything shady, there are MANY in that cult with planes, connections in Mexico, and a real desire to say FU to the US government.  For that reason alone I agree he could be a flight risk. The saving grace is he is not smart enough to pull it off on his own and hopefully no one is dumb enough to help him.

Maybe he can disguise himself as a very large suitcase and hitch a ride with John Shrader

[HarleyQuinn]

6 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Not sure why this is being down voted but I agree that he could be a flight risk.  Though I personally doubt John David (I heard he is a pilot!) would do anything shady, there are MANY in that cult with planes, connections in Mexico, and a real desire to say FU to the US government.  For that reason alone I agree he could be a flight risk. The saving grace is he is not smart enough to pull it off on his own and hopefully no one is dumb enough to help him.

JD was involved in that Medicorps thing was he not? When he and the Bates flew to the Bahamas after the hurricane, guns and badges in tow and acted like total assholes? I wouldn't put it past him to do something shady tbh.

And regarding the Dillards I think a lot of them not being allowed to the TTH had to do with TLC filming. They probably couldn't be there when any of the film crews were, where as Anna and family could, making it easier for Josh to go lurk in a corner or something. 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by HarleyQuinn

[Drala]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

...<snip> ... Any industry that is illegal will, by necessity, end up being dangerous and exploitative, which is why there is such a huge push for legalization from sex workers. It's hard to protect anybody when the work itself is illegal -- we see the same thing in most versions of "illegal" labor. (Immigrants can't get worker protections if they are undocumented, selling marijuana can be considered dangerous, etc etc.) Ultimately, sex work isn't the world's oldest profession for nothing -- it isn't going away -- and the best way to protect the people who work in this industry is to legalize it and respect the labor.ll

(Also there are a lot of nonbinary people in the industry to, but that isn't how this conversation is delineating either.)

This observation about why we need to legalize (or at least decriminalize) sex work is totally on point. I'd also like to see more discussion on the number and role of non-binary people in the industry.  This is important if we are to successfully destigmatize sex work AND nonconforming gender identities.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Drala

[The Baby Humanist]

I've never watched these shows, so this is a real question, not snark:

Does Anna have any smarts? Do ANY of the Duggars or Duggar-adjacent have any smarts?

Clearly, they're culturally ignorant — the products both uneducation and miseducation. I'm not even sure how you measure "common sense" in people that didn't share a common reality with the rest of us. 

But is anyone bright? Articulate? Curious? Or has all that been beaten and brainwashed out of them? 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

5 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Not sure why this is being down voted but I agree that he could be a flight risk.  Though I personally doubt John David (I heard he is a pilot!) would do anything shady, there are MANY in that cult with planes, connections in Mexico, and a real desire to say FU to the US government.  For that reason alone I agree he could be a flight risk. The saving grace is he is not smart enough to pull it off on his own and hopefully no one is dumb enough to help him.

I agree he has the means to flee, but I doubt he will. Few countries would allow him to stay long term.  Also, fleeing is basically an admission of guilt, and would be even worse for the family brand. Adding ‘federal fugitive’ to Josh’s list of bad deeds is not a good course of action. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, HarleyQuinn said:

JD was involved in that Medicorps thing was he not? When he and the Bates flew to the Bahamas after the hurricane, guns and badges in tow and acted like total assholes? I wouldn't put it past him to do something shady tbh.

 

I think he's a shady scumbag, personally I wasn't saying he wouldn't help due to ethics....I just don't think he would deliberately give up his life with his wife and kid to be a wanted fugitive.  He wouldn't be able to live like a Duggar, but between him and Abbie they have enough professional skills to make ends meet in a modest life with one kid in a low cost of living area.  

But if illegal shittiness comes to light about medicorps I will not be surprised one little bit.  The smuggar things is just to high profile IMO and impossible to get away with.