[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, fundiefriday said:

This ? and forcing Jim Bob to give her the money she deserved.  JB is ALL about his money...

His and everyone else’s money too apparently- and that’s where the problem lies.

[imokit]

13 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

But back to Smuggar. If I understand correctly, the court appointed babysitter only needs to ring up the authorities if he misbehaves. That's something a younger (adult) sibling could do. It's the criminal version of behave or I'll tell mum and dad and there will be Consequences. 

Not in that family.  In that family, JB & M were busy with their eleventeen kids.  Josh, Jana the older girls and probably John were parental authority.  Telling would likely result in being in more trouble as Josh was eldest and responsible and in authority over them.  It wouldn't have got a positive reaction (unless perhaps you were John or Jana and old enough that Josh wasn't old enough to have authority over you).

Those kids told on each other to the older ones first - there's a clip where Joy is trying wrangle small people and threatens them with telling Jana on them (Jana not mum or dad).

There's another clip where JB & M take a lot of the older and middle kids missioning somewhere.  Newly married Josh and Anna moved back in to mind littles, and he mentions that there was adjusting and he had to remind them that he was in charge.

 

Add to that the keep badstuff in the family mentality in that family.

It would be really hard for a younger sibling to tattle on him especially to law enforcement.

[Howl]

 

[feministxtian]

I do think Josh would be a flight risk...do you know that John David is a pilot? I have no doubt that JB would put the golden boy on a plane to Mexico and that would be that. 

[Drala]

9 hours ago, Anna Bolinas said:

Imo, and with the caveat that I was not the original poster, the jobs that truly have power in society are jobs that are male dominated. And there's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg situation with that, because it's like, what comes first, the male influx into these industries or the industries themselves (although some jobs, like being a lawmaker, inherently have power)? How many men work as lawyers or doctors or lawmakers versus how many work in the sex industry? And those men who work in the sex industry, are they white, able-bodied, straight? Or are the white, able-bodied, straight men nine times out of ten working in higher-powered, higher-paid industries? Why is there such a discrepancy between the amount of women versus the amount of men in the sex industry? And why does it seem like when men have "powerful" jobs, there's real power behind it, whereas when women have "powerful" jobs, the power is entirely dependent on their sex appeal, mostly to men?

I would also say that, imo, one of the reasons that the sex industry comes in for so much criticism is because of the sexual violence that so many workers suffer from that workers in other jobs don't experience. When I'm working at my job as a cashier (and no, that's not my dream job), I am not expected to sexually service the people who come to my register. I am not expected to fulfill their sexual or romantic fantasies. There's not that kind of protection in the sex industry--because that's the whole point. Moreover, while women (and some men) are under sexual threat at various jobs outside of the sex industry, including migrant work, that does not mean that the problems within the sex industry are just something to be shrugged off. I also don't think it's helpful to say that when we overthrow capitalism, everyone will be happy and nothing exploitative will ever happen again, because that's not the reality we live in right now, and to me, it would be better to combat the most exploitative industries right now. I can say for me, I would rather be at a cash register than have to have sex or perform sexual acts on camera for money.

Obviously people are going to have different opinions, but sometimes it feels like feminism gets flattened to "it's empowering if I say it is," without thinking about what empowerment and power really means for women as class and not just for individuals, because there's nothing stopping someone like Anna, for instance, saying that she is empowered in her marriage and her cult because she feels like she's empowered, and no one can tell her otherwise because that would be invalidating. 

Excellent analysis, IMO. My biggest concern with the sex trade industry are the safety and health issues.  While other industries have problems with health & safety, they are able to address these issues because the work is legal and not as highly stigmatized.  The more "legitimate" the labor, the higher the likelihood there is regulatory oversight, which ideally mitigates some of negative impact associated with the exploitation of wage labor.

I understand that more contemporary forms of sex work, such as telesex and what occurs in other virtual venues, are much less dangerous than what takes place IRL.  I would be willing to bet that the sex work that occurs IRL still makes up the majority of the industry.  We still have a lot of work to do with promoting health & safety standards for sex workers.  Decriminalization is an important first step.

[libgirl2]

Just now, feministxtian said:

I do think Josh would be a flight risk...do you know that John David is a pilot? I have no doubt that JB would put the golden boy on a plane to Mexico and that would be that. 

I do wonder if JD would actually help him flee. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, imokit said:

Add to that the keep badstuff in the family mentality in that family.

It would be really hard for a younger sibling to tattle on him especially to law enforcement.

The first is something that can take intensive therapy to break out of.  People can come to this on their own, but I seriously doubt a publicly compliant Duggar has.

And to the second....agree on how it could insanely difficult emotionally but we can't forget how many of them are financially dependent on JB.  Hard enough to fight your brainwashing to do the right thing, but if doing so will mean you could be cut off financially now this would take a lot more courage than a lot of people would have.

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I do think Josh would be a flight risk...do you know that John David is a pilot? I have no doubt that JB would put the golden boy on a plane to Mexico and that would be that. 

I cannot believe I'm about to say something nice about him, but I don't think JD would commit a felony and basically abandon his life for Josh.  He has a wife and baby he seems to like, he can't just drop Josh off and come back to his little family.  He would be a fugitive.  

[Kjaerringa]

42 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Oh no it's me again. 
Two things.

1. For some areas of sex work, it is one of the few jobs where women will make more than men for doing the same job. Some studios post their pay rates and you can see this -- it's certainly unusual, but it's been noticed by some economics people who study such things. 

2. I think with the advent of OnlyFans, we are seeing more men doing sex work. Could be many reasons --- the entry is lower, you can set your own rates, being able to develop parasocial relationships can be really helpful for the industry. And we know men *do* do sex work -- if they didn't, there wouldn't be gay porn. I think it's a bit weird this discussion has focused primarily on all men being the "pimps" or "customers" exclusively when we know there are men doing sex work. I thought it was very strange when I brought up a male sex worker and the replies framed him as an aggressor/exploiter, even though any female worker doing the same thing was a victim. 

Any industry that is illegal will, by necessity, end up being dangerous and exploitative, which is why there is such a huge push for legalization from sex workers. It's hard to protect anybody when the work itself is illegal -- we see the same thing in most versions of "illegal" labor. (Immigrants can't get worker protections if they are undocumented, selling marijuana can be considered dangerous, etc etc.) Ultimately, sex work isn't the world's oldest profession for nothing -- it isn't going away -- and the best way to protect the people who work in this industry is to legalize it and respect the labor. 

(Also there are a lot of nonbinary people in the industry to, but that isn't how this conversation is delineating either.)

I think the discussion has been framed that way because we have been relating the discussion, in part, to Josh...assumed to be a cisgender male... being a consumer of pornography (self reported) and child pornography (charged). And while I agree with the fact that the industry should be legalized, my response to your comment in #1, (wherein you state that in filmed sex work, women and men often have equitable pay) is that I don't believe that is much of a positive, but rather proof that our society tends to value women more for their sexuality and/or appearance rather than their intelligence, leadership, or business acumen. 

 

[feministxtian]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I cannot believe I'm about to say something nice about him, but I don't think JD would commit a felony and basically abandon his life for Josh.  He has a wife and baby he seems to like, he can't just drop Josh off and come back to his little family.  He would be a fugitive.  

The question here is how dependent is JD on his father? How much power does JB still hold over the older kids? JD is not the only one w/a pilot's license. Let's say JB gets JD to fly Josh and fam to Mexico. He might promise to financially support the whole gang there. AFAIK, Mexico doesn't have an extradition treaty w/the US. 

Just a thought...because I really can't see JB & M letting the golden boy go down. 

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I cannot believe I'm about to say something nice about him, but I don't think JD would commit a felony and basically abandon his life for Josh.  He has a wife and baby he seems to like, he can't just drop Josh off and come back to his little family.  He would be a fugitive.  

I just can't see that either. 

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, feministxtian said:

The question here is how dependent is JD on his father? How much power does JB still hold over the older kids? JD is not the only one w/a pilot's license. Let's say JB gets JD to fly Josh and fam to Mexico. He might promise to financially support the whole gang there. AFAIK, Mexico doesn't have an extradition treaty w/the US. 

Just a thought...because I really can't see JB & M letting the golden boy go down. 

The amount of power over someone you would need to get them to abandon their country and their life with a new baby is pretty extreme. I imagine they would be scared to even try because that might be your Breaking Point and if you told the court that there would be some severe consequences

[gezykah]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

Because Jill and Derek have had the ultimate temerity to decide to think for themselves. They are showing signs of independence, critical thinking, and autonomy. This is against ILBP rules AND JB's idea of appropriateness. They must be stopped!

It's easy to set up an Uber alibi. When Four was 21 but didn't yet have a credit card of her own, she'd want to go out drinking with her friends. To avoid the drunk driving situation, I'd give her my credit card for the Uber. She could have been drinking anywhere while I was home in bed, but it's that easy . Josh could have given anyone his Uber account or credit card. Especially one of his brothers, since they look so much alike.

I've ordered uber rides for my brother. Although we look alike I'd like to think not so much that anybody would confuse me for a man 6 inches tall and 50 pounds heavier than me, lol!

I haven't looked deeply into his alibi but if he can't produce any evidence beyond uber than that is highly suspicious.

[Giraffe]

I don't know who suggested it (probably multiple posters) but thanks for recommending YouTuber Emily D Baker. I watched what she did on Josh but I'm enjoying her other videos, too. 

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

The first is something that can take intensive therapy to break out of.  People can come to this on their own, but I seriously doubt a publicly compliant Duggar has.

And to the second....agree on how it could insanely difficult emotionally but we can't forget how many of them are financially dependent on JB.  Hard enough to fight your brainwashing to do the right thing, but if doing so will mean you could be cut off financially now this would take a lot more courage than a lot of people would have.

I cannot believe I'm about to say something nice about him, but I don't think JD would commit a felony and basically abandon his life for Josh.  He has a wife and baby he seems to like, he can't just drop Josh off and come back to his little family.  He would be a fugitive.  

OTOH, he would have to buck daddy, thus changing his lifestyle if he refused. Do you think JD would be willing to walk Jill’s path? I suppose he and Abbie could find daycare and  jobs to support their family. Maybe move to OK?

 

[Alisamer]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

And to the second....agree on how it could insanely difficult emotionally but we can't forget how many of them are financially dependent on JB.  Hard enough to fight your brainwashing to do the right thing, but if doing so will mean you could be cut off financially now this would take a lot more courage than a lot of people would have.

Yeah I think JB thought he was getting a new follower in Derrick, and didn't anticipate him having his own opinions and more importantly ambitions. JB thought Derrick was one who would work his Walmart accounting job, take Jill on missions during his vacations, and thus add some new locations and variety to the show. Instead he got a guy who realized how much free work JB was getting from his children, insisted on getting paid, decided to become a lawyer, and in the process encouraged Jill to get real therapy and stand up for herself. And more importantly BE herself, and learn who she actually was. And to do what's best for her, including preventing pregnancy.

I'm no Derrick fan, he's still said some vile bigoted things, but I do think Jill lucked out with him. I think JimBob hoped for a pastor-hopeful very young Ben and didn't get one. I think Jeremy is also a bit of a wild card - he's hedging his bets now and doing the pastor thing, but he's already mostly out of JB's reach and I think is focused on what he thinks will advance his career and make him money, regardless of how it affects JB and Michelle. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

The question here is how dependent is JD on his father? How much power does JB still hold over the older kids? JD is not the only one w/a pilot's license. Let's say JB gets JD to fly Josh and fam to Mexico. He might promise to financially support the whole gang there. AFAIK, Mexico doesn't have an extradition treaty w/the US. 

Just a thought...because I really can't see JB & M letting the golden boy go down. 

In this scenario how is JB getting the plane back?  I can see him selling out Smuggar a lot faster than I can see him sacrificing the cost of a plane.  The Duggar's have money, but they don't have the kind of money some of you think they have.  Is he supposed to support two families for life in Mexico, while dealing with likely charges about what did he and M know and when did he know it, plus supporting everyone else for life despite the brand having not just one "sinner" but clearly a crime family that runs from the law?

That's fan fiction.

[justoneoftwo]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

OTOH, he would have to buck daddy, thus changing his lifestyle if he refused. Do you think JD would be willing to walk Jill’s path? I suppose he and Abbie could find daycare and  jobs to support their family. Maybe move to OK?

 

I think they would be some of the least scared to go on their own. They both have marketable skill that could beat to relatively high paying careers, and happy went to school and I real environment and might be slightly less scared of that for her children. Further some of their careers could even be flexible and allow them not to need daycare potentially

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, gezykah said:

I've ordered uber rides for my brother. Although we look alike I'd like to think not so much that anybody would confuse me for a man 6 inches tall and 50 pounds heavier than me, lol!

I haven't looked deeply into his alibi but if he can't produce any evidence beyond uber than that is highly suspicious.

Seriously, if you care it's in the old threads.  But to continue the narrative of 'if it was only uber' just confuses the issue.  It wasn't.

[HereticHick]

5 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

 He might promise to financially support the whole gang there. AFAIK, Mexico doesn't have an extradition treaty w/the US. 

 

The United and States and Mexico have had an extradition treaty since 1862, most recently renewed in 1978.  I once flew from Dallas to Mexico City (on a commercial plane) seated behind a guy being extradited. A US Marshal put him on the plane and a Mexican Marshal (with a BIG semiautomatic weapon) met us at the gate.

[Antimony]

4 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

I think the discussion has been framed that way because we have been relating the discussion, in part, to Josh...assumed to be a cisgender male... being a consumer of pornography (self reported) and child pornography (charged). And while I agree with the fact that the industry should be legalized, my response to your comment in #1, (wherein you state that in filmed sex work, women and men often have equitable pay) is that I don't believe that is much of a positive, but rather proof that our society tends to value women more for their sexuality and/or appearance rather than their intelligence, leadership, or business acumen. 

 

I didn't say it's a positive, but it might be one explanation. Why work somewhere that would pay you comparatively less, when every other job on earth would pay your comparatively more, compared to your woman colleagues? Some folks argument was, "If sex work is such good money, why don't men do it?" but it's not as well paid for them, as far as we can tell (though the statistics are a mess, for obvious reasons.) 

I also don't think I said the pay was equitable? It's just inequitable in an unusual direction. I cannot believe I had to open up an incognito tab but here we are -- some studios show that a male porn actor will make $500 while the female actor will make $1200 for the same work. Male porn actors make around $40k/year, female porn actresses make about $100-250K/yr, for similar popularity/fame statuses. It's just one of the very, very, very, very, rare places we see a gap like this. 
(*Male porn actors can make more money doing gay porn than straight porn, and this is one of the reasons the phrase "gay for pay" exists.)

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

In this scenario how is JB getting the plane back?  I can see him selling out Smuggar a lot faster than I can see him sacrificing the cost of a plane.  The Duggar's have money, but they don't have the kind of money some of you think they have.  Is he supposed to support two families for life in Mexico, while dealing with likely charges about what did he and M know and when did he know it, plus supporting everyone else for life despite the brand having not just one "sinner" but clearly a crime family that runs from the law?

That's fan fiction.

I believe you have to relinquish your passport when you're on bond/bail like this, anyway. The planes gotta land somewhere. It's a fan fiction plan for sure. (Also, JD's plane can only fly about 1000 miles in perfect conditions without refueling, if we assume he's using the SR22 for this escapade, just *barely* enough to make it over the Mexican border assuming ideal winds, weights, etc.)

[Alisamer]

11 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

OTOH, he would have to buck daddy, thus changing his lifestyle if he refused. Do you think JD would be willing to walk Jill’s path? I suppose he and Abbie could find daycare and  jobs to support their family. Maybe move to OK?

I think they'd have the easiest time leaving of all of them. There are jobs for small civil aircraft pilots. He could find some conservative celebrity or mega-preacher (or Nascar driver, or musician, or...) and be their private pilot, they provide the plane. Abbie was a nurse, right? I know a single mom who was a nurse, and until her kids were in high school she worked very long shifts on the weekend and was home with them during the week, and her mom enjoyed having the kids every weekend. Even if JD needed to fly weekends they could probably come up with a schedule where they didn't need daycare, only an occasional babysitter.

I suspect a LOT of the married Duggars are kind of holding their breath at this point, waiting to see what happens. Some of them might double down and support the family, but some might take the opportunity to distance themselves. I think Jeremy and Jinger will distance, and JD and Abbie might also, if the verdict is guilty.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Alisamer

[AprilQuilt]

5 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

OTOH, he would have to buck daddy, thus changing his lifestyle if he refused. Do you think JD would be willing to walk Jill’s path? I suppose he and Abbie could find daycare and  jobs to support their family. Maybe move to OK?

 

I think this totally hypothetical scenario is one in which JD would have no problem standing up to JB. He was happy to go on TV five years ago and say that he no longer respected his older brother or wanted to be like him. For someone who tends to keep himself private and avoid the whole dog-and-pony show, that's huge. If JD was disappointed in Josh before, he's furious now.

Now he has Abbie and Gracie, I can see him having a proper rethink, not necessarily of how he wants to live, but whether his parents and the family need to be at the centre of it. I read him as a person quite firm in his convictions, who wouldn't make a scene but who might well attempt to distance himself from what he saw as hypocrisy, as well as potential danger to his child. His priority in 2015 was to be the role model for his siblings that Josh wasn't: his priority now might well be to be a better 'headship'/umbrella to his little family than Josh was to his.

So no, don't think JD would fly Josh to Mexico. Not in a million years.

[Jess]

To add to others I can not picture JB having JD or anyone else help Josh flee. First, it’s not like you just fly your plane to an airstrip in Mexico and get off the plane for a new life. Josh wouldn’t have a passport. They would have to fly the plane illegally to Mexico. Sure drug smugglers do that, but the Duggar’s do not have the kind of connections that would allow them to know where to land a plane and get away with just that aspect and they do not want those connections.

Second, not only would the pilot have to abandon his life the family assets could be frozen to prevent JB from supporting the fugitives there was any evidence he helped (like his plane being used). No way does he want his money frozen or his personal finances gone over by the FBI. 

Its frankly ridiculous to think JB will help Josh flee. 

[Antimony]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

To add to others I can not picture JB having JD or anyone else help Josh flee. First, it’s not like you just fly your plane to an airstrip in Mexico and get off the plane for a new life. Josh wouldn’t have a passport. They would have to fly the plane illegally to Mexico. Sure drug smugglers do that, but the Duggar’s do not have the kind of connections that would allow them to know where to land a plane and get away with just that aspect and they do not want those connections.

Second, not only would the pilot have to abandon his life the family assets could be frozen to prevent JB from supporting the fugitives there was any evidence he helped (like his plane being used). No way does he want his money frozen or his personal finances gone over by the FBI. 

Its frankly ridiculous to think JB will help Josh flee. 

If we're going to write fan fiction about sneaking Josh over a border to flee the feds, I think we're missing an opportunity to not consider Totally A Missionary Pilot TimBits Rodrigues for the mission. 

(I jest, I jest. Ohio is even further away from Mexico.)

[EmmieJ]

28 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I do wonder if JD would actually help him flee. 

Where would Josh flee?  Mexico?  He doesn't speak Spanish and he'd stick out like a sore thumb.  What about money?  JB won't be funding that.  That would probably be the end of TLC money.  Instead, TLC would do a show on hunting down the fugitive fundie.

Edited May 4, 2021 by EmmieJ