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[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?


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1 hour ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

So it wasn’t just classist and misogynistic it was ableist too. Got it. Work done by disabled women isn’t worth dignity, thanks for clearing that up. 

Sex work is just as worthy of respect as any other industry. The way you’re phrasing it about the violence sex workers often face is coming off to me as pretty victim blaming. The fact is there aren’t always options, that doesn’t make the work any less valid or the people any Less worthy of protection. Other jobs are inherently dangerous and often taken by people without options, US military for example.

I think @Foudeb isn‘t saying that work not commonly done by able-bodied white men doesn’t deserve dignity, but that labelling this work as empowering or worthy of respect doesn’t make the exploitation associated with it disappear (neither does labelling it as exploitation, obviously). Of course people deserve dignity and respect, that’s the point — too many people are subjected to systematically exploitative work. This applies not only to sex work, but also to other dangerous and/or underpaid jobs which may be the only option for people who aren’t rich, white and able-bodied. We should fight against the exploiters, not the exploited. And if we can’t change the system, we should at least try to fight the symptoms and give people more options by strengthening (or establishing) a social safety net so that nobody is forced into work by which they feel exploited. None of this means that the people working in dangerous or underpaid positions or the work they do have no dignity. 

At least that’s how I read their posts. Please correct me if I misunderstood. 

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The discussion about sex workers/the sex industry has been interesting. I am in the camp of it being dangerous and exploitive as a whole, but I have appreciated hearing from those with first hand experience who are providing a different view point.  Thank you for being open and educating the rest of us.

But regardless, I want to remind everyone that this has nothing to do with Josh Duggar.  He was caught with CP, and some of it very young children at that.  This is abuse any way you look at it. Assuming he is convicted, Josh Duggar is a pedophile.

SSo let's save our bickering for things such as who the best Arndt brother is. ;)

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13 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

I’m mostly caught up again since I had to go to work today. I only have one question for JB. Why has Josh been welcomed in the big house and Jill isn’t? Is wearing jeans and wanting to be paid for a lifetime of work really worse than what Josh has done? 

Because Jill and Derek have had the ultimate temerity to decide to think for themselves. They are showing signs of independence, critical thinking, and autonomy. This is against ILBP rules AND JB's idea of appropriateness. They must be stopped!

13 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

in this article she disputes his uber reciepts as something anyone can get to cover their arse. I dont know how uber works to know if this is true or not

It's easy to set up an Uber alibi. When Four was 21 but didn't yet have a credit card of her own, she'd want to go out drinking with her friends. To avoid the drunk driving situation, I'd give her my credit card for the Uber. She could have been drinking anywhere while I was home in bed, but it's that easy . Josh could have given anyone his Uber account or credit card. Especially one of his brothers, since they look so much alike.

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2 hours ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

So it wasn’t just classist and misogynistic it was ableist too. Got it. Work done by disabled women isn’t worth dignity, thanks for clearing that up. 

Sex work is just as worthy of respect as any other industry. The way you’re phrasing it about the violence sex workers often face is coming off to me as pretty victim blaming. The fact is there aren’t always options, that doesn’t make the work any less valid or the people any Less worthy of protection. Other jobs are inherently dangerous and often taken by people without options, US military for example.

You are 'othering', and also misunderstanding her comment. She is stating that if, overall, in the scheme of things, generally speaking, sex work was such a great way to make easy money that more men would be doing it, because our society does not have a level playing field for men and women's pay and job options. This is why we have terminology like 'the glass ceiling' when referring to the difficulty women often have in reaching positions of power or high rank.

In other words, our society leans misogynistic, and if men thought women had a great deal there, they'd do the actual sex work, too....instead of, say, being the pimps.

At no point did she state that NO woman chooses this work freely, or that other jobs can never be demeaning. She said, truthfully, that it can be dangerous, in different ways, depending on the type of sex work being done. We have had several people speak of their own very different experiences. They are all valid. We don't get to dismiss one person's point of view simply because their experience differed from another's.

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9 hours ago, Kjaerringa said:

So yes, he is responsible, because he is an adult...and I hope they throw the book at him, including YEARS of mandatory counseling, with provider and program to be determined by the judge, not JB...but I DO believe Michelle and JB are ultimately responsible for this entire tragic, nauseating scenario. They instilled the belief system in their children. They refused to get real help for Josh or his sisters.

I agree with this.

If you were TRYING to make a guy into a pedophile, teaching him from childhood that girls, even tiny toddlers, are sexual temptresses whose knees and chests will arouse him to sin if he so much as catches a glimpse of them is a good place to start. One of Zsu's boys once had a total freakout because he caught a glimpse of a toddler's undies. All the blame is on the girls - they have to wear long skirts and high neck tops and cover themselves, and in the case of the Duggars even be the ones to remind the boys to "not look". The boys are practically expected to be aroused by the sight of any body part on a girl, even a child, between elbows and ankles. 

All while dad is like "hey HEY hey..." and grabbing mom and disappearing with her to make more babies or dry humping her on the mini golf course. 

Frankly I'm amazed it's just Josh in the family, so far. Every single one of the Duggar kids (and all the Rods, and Andersons, and Maxwells, and...) need intensive therapy. 

7 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Nike!  Because women should only draw attention to their countenance.

  Hide contents

Victoire_de_Samothrace_-_vue_de_trois-qu

(large image of a headless Nike statue from wikipedia)

She's my favorite sculpture, I think. I find her difficult to draw though because of the lack of head!

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3 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

You are 'othering', and also misunderstanding her comment. She is stating that if, overall, in the scheme of things, generally speaking, sex work was such a great way to make easy money that more men would be doing it, because our society does not have a level playing field for men and women's pay and job options. This is why we have terminology like 'the glass ceiling' when referring to the difficulty women often have in reaching positions of power or high rank.

In other words, our society leans misogynistic, and if men thought women had a great deal there, they'd do the actual sex work, too....instead of, say, being the pimps.

Oh no it's me again. 
Two things.

1. For some areas of sex work, it is one of the few jobs where women will make more than men for doing the same job. Some studios post their pay rates and you can see this -- it's certainly unusual, but it's been noticed by some economics people who study such things. 

2. I think with the advent of OnlyFans, we are seeing more men doing sex work. Could be many reasons --- the entry is lower, you can set your own rates, being able to develop parasocial relationships can be really helpful for the industry. And we know men *do* do sex work -- if they didn't, there wouldn't be gay porn. I think it's a bit weird this discussion has focused primarily on all men being the "pimps" or "customers" exclusively when we know there are men doing sex work. I thought it was very strange when I brought up a male sex worker and the replies framed him as an aggressor/exploiter, even though any female worker doing the same thing was a victim. 

Any industry that is illegal will, by necessity, end up being dangerous and exploitative, which is why there is such a huge push for legalization from sex workers. It's hard to protect anybody when the work itself is illegal -- we see the same thing in most versions of "illegal" labor. (Immigrants can't get worker protections if they are undocumented, selling marijuana can be considered dangerous, etc etc.) Ultimately, sex work isn't the world's oldest profession for nothing -- it isn't going away -- and the best way to protect the people who work in this industry is to legalize it and respect the labor. 

(Also there are a lot of nonbinary people in the industry to, but that isn't how this conversation is delineating either.)

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11 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Josh has been fiercely attacked by Satan, whereas Jill has embraced and is nuturing a Spirit of Rebellion.  And is a girl.  I’m sure Derek has shot his mouth off to Jimboob and has no trouble verbally making mincemeat out of JB’s words.

Does anyone know if the Duggars etc believe in demon possession?

I keep going over this in my head and I just cannot understand. Jill did what she was supposed to do - leave and cleave and all that crap.

She's still the bigger sinner here, the black sheep, whatever else you want to call it. 

I also think there  must be something else in DimWit's head about this - Amy, the rebel Duggar seems more welcome than Jill is. I wish I could understand his thought process although I'm sure it's nothing more than "Jill made me look bad and lost me money"

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51 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

SSo let's save our bickering for things such as who the best Arndt brother is.

Please do not try to police thread drift, it's against the rules.  You bicker about whatever you like and others will do the same.

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In the Duggar world, Jill has committed a multitude of sins. She got her nose pierced, she wears pants and shorts, she is limiting her family size, she is sending her kids to public schools, attends a conservative but not IFB church, has sought secular mental health help, and last but not least, had the audacity to demand the money she made while appearing on 19KAC and CO. She stood up to her "authority". JB can't have that sort of influence around the rest of his brood if he wants to maintain control. Josh "just got carried away". Jill openly defied JB. 

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So what happens at the hearing thing tomorrow? How do they decide if someone is granted bond or not?

 

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Just now, Satan'sFortress said:

So what happens at the hearing thing tomorrow? How do they decide if someone is granted bond or not?

 

Complicated. Depends on the severity of the crime (legally, not morally, though they are entwined -- I just don't think this counts as a no-bail offense in most courts), flight risk, risk to the community, and (maybe) risk to the defendant themselves. 

Some courts set bail based on a combination of income and crime, but I don't know how that shakes out for federal courts.

The only funny thing I do know is that your bail can actually be too low. Had a friend get arrested for drunk in public, got held on $90 bail, didn't have his wallet, and couldn't get it paid because the amount was so low no bondsman would take it. This will, clearly, not be the case here, but it's one of the weird issues that can happen with the bail/bondsman system. 

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6 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

In the Duggar world, Jill has committed a multitude of sins. She got her nose pierced, she wears pants and shorts, she is limiting her family size, she is sending her kids to public schools, attends a conservative but not IFB church, has sought secular mental health help, and last but not least, had the audacity to demand the money she made while appearing on 19KAC and CO. She stood up to her "authority". JB can't have that sort of influence around the rest of his brood if he wants to maintain control. Josh "just got carried away". Jill openly defied JB. 

I don't think it is the pants or the nose ring, but yes probably some of the others. For sure, I do think it is her not toeing the family line that everything is all hunky dory. 

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59 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Because Jill and Derek have had the ultimate temerity to decide to think for themselves. They are showing signs of independence, critical thinking, and autonomy. This is against ILBP rules AND JB's idea of appropriateness. They must be stopped!

It's easy to set up an Uber alibi. When Four was 21 but didn't yet have a credit card of her own, she'd want to go out drinking with her friends. To avoid the drunk driving situation, I'd give her my credit card for the Uber. She could have been drinking anywhere while I was home in bed, but it's that easy . Josh could have given anyone his Uber account or credit card. Especially one of his brothers, since they look so much alike.

There was more than just Uber receipts, though I don't recall the specifics.  The threads about this back in the day were very contentious, but as per usual the details of what was found/reported are in there for anyone who cares enough to revisit that.

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For the record, I have never criticised sex workers. To each their own. As another poster said, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

I suspect several people are projecting their own (internalised) prejudices on me. 

I do feel unmitigated contempt for johns and pimps and for that I do not apologise. It is immoral to rent a human for sex. And by saying that "sex work is great! Empowering! You choose your own hours omg!" we are playing into the narrative that sex workers have freely chosen this career among many others and that they enjoy it. Ie the narrative johns totally want to hear. As opposed to "it's this or my kids go hungry but I'm throwing up in my mouth every time you touch me and please god don't remove that condom without telling me like last time because you think having paid entitles you to do whatever you please" 

Which is closer to reality in my experience. 

I am fully aware of the problems inherent to criminalising the purchasing of sex (in a nutshell, it takes the least worst johns out of the equation, they decide its not worth it, let's try tinder instead, and leaves sex workers with only the right psychos who will risk doing something illegal for the thrill of having sexual power over someone - the kind of people that would have been there anyway, only more prevalent). So, no solution here. Apart perhaps from educating little boys (johns are overwhelmingly male) that no, their desires and money does not entitle them to whatever they want) and human beings are not for sale.

But back to Smuggar. If I understand correctly, the court appointed babysitter only needs to ring up the authorities if he misbehaves. That's something a younger (adult) sibling could do. It's the criminal version of behave or I'll tell mum and dad and there will be Consequences. 

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10 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I keep going over this in my head and I just cannot understand. Jill did what she was supposed to do - leave and cleave and all that crap.

She's still the bigger sinner here, the black sheep, whatever else you want to call it. 

I also think there  must be something else in DimWit's head about this - Amy, the rebel Duggar seems more welcome than Jill is. I wish I could understand his thought process although I'm sure it's nothing more than "Jill made me look bad and lost me money"

It strongly suggests that above all else control, money and power are JB’s higher power. Above all else, those are the things he worships. And I agree, he is effed up and the root of many, many problems. Total speculation but I think JB was an unhappy youth. And think he was likely an average to below average performer and was probably teased/bullied. He despised his dad. And I think landing Michelle empowered him. He became the ruler of the fiefdom. At last he was the best at something, impregnating his wife. He also became the ultimate winner by aggressively being in competition with his young kids.

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Jill decided her parents were not the best ever and were wrong about done things, including homeschool and quiverfull. I think that was the ultimate sin. Disagreeing with her perfect parents

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3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't think it is the pants or the nose ring, but yes probably some of the others. For sure, I do think it is her not toeing the family line that everything is all hunky dory. 

This is just about the greatest sin you can commit against cult leaders: stop pretending that everything is all hunky dory.  (I believe in some more traditional forms of Christianity, blasphemy is said to be the only unforgivable sin.)  

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1 minute ago, Foudeb said:

But back to Smuggar. If I understand correctly, the court appointed babysitter only needs to ring up the authorities if he misbehaves. That's something a younger (adult) sibling could do. It's the criminal version of behave or I'll tell mum and dad and there will be Consequences. 

That is not something many of them will be able to do.  I grew up a decade + younger than my sisters and almost a decade younger than my brother.  It's not a sibling relationship the way others think of it, it can be an almost quasi parental one in some cases, but the relationships always start from childhood with a huge unbalanced power dynamic just due to the vast age difference.

They can be bridged as adults if siblings develop mature relationships that go beyond family of origin dynamics, but nothing indicates Josh has a close and equal relationship with any of his younger siblings.

I am middle aged and if my siblings were horrible I would not want to be in charge of them because I wouldn't be comfortable flipping the script and being their babysitter, as it were.  I can't even imagine how much less equipped a younger Duggar would be.

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3 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Jill decided her parents were not the best ever and were wrong about done things, including homeschool and quiverfull. I think that was the ultimate sin. Disagreeing with her perfect parents

This ? and forcing Jim Bob to give her the money she deserved.  JB is ALL about his money...

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6 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

For the record, I have never criticised sex workers. To each their own. As another poster said, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

]

No, you just condescendingly told them all to go work in IT. ? Sex workers who have had mixed experiences within the industry have, on this VERY thread, told you what they need and want. Stop talking over them, maybe.

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2 minutes ago, fundiefriday said:

This ? and forcing Jim Bob to give her the money she deserved.  JB is ALL about his money...

I agree it's about the money but I also think it's about the power and prestige. By telling him he did something wrong at the same time she's challenging both and that's way too far. I also think Michelle is very focused on being respected and looked up to

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Also Jill was the poster child for them. Until she married she did everything her parents asked and more. Her siblings loved her and she loved kids. She seemed to do what her parents asked without question. She was the one that no one thought would ever wear pants, get a nose ring, send her kids to school, and not be quiverful. She was the snitch. 

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24 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Please do not try to police thread drift, it's against the rules.  You bicker about whatever you like and others will do the same.

OMG, it was a joke relating back to a discussion earlier in one of these threads. Geesh.

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2 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I agree it's about the money but I also think it's about the power and prestige. By telling him he did something wrong at the same time she's challenging both and that's way too far. I also think Michelle is very focused on being respected and looked up to

I definitely agree with you!  JB and Michelle are also all about the power and prestige! :)

Edited by fundiefriday
grammar
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6 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

Also Jill was the poster child for them. Until she married she did everything her parents asked and more. Her siblings loved her and she loved kids. She seemed to do what her parents asked without question. She was the one that no one thought would ever wear pants, get a nose ring, send her kids to school, and not be quiverful. She was the snitch. 

This is a good point Jill is the last one they would have thought would get out. 

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