[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

2 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

I’m mostly caught up again since I had to go to work today. I only have one question for JB. Why has Josh been welcomed in the big house and Jill isn’t? Is wearing jeans and wanting to be paid for a lifetime of work really worse than what Josh has done? 

Josh has been fiercely attacked by Satan, whereas Jill has embraced and is nuturing a Spirit of Rebellion.  And is a girl.  I’m sure Derek has shot his mouth off to Jimboob and has no trouble verbally making mincemeat out of JB’s words.

Does anyone know if the Duggars etc believe in demon possession?

[pooplexed]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

   13 minutes ago,  Kjaerringa said: 

JB and Michelle were not raised in this belief system. I hold them completely and totally responsible.

Completely and totally?  So Josh, a grown man of 33 isn't responsible at all for his actions?

Bringing this forward from the last thread. I think we need to remember to reduce the ages of JB’s kids to their emotional age. Aside from a couple of the kids, most of the Duggars seem far younger than their chronological age. I’d give Josh the maturation age of about 16 years. From what we know of him and his lifestyle, he does nothing that a responsible, reasonable, family man of 33 provides. In every sense JB is still in charge and controlling his strings. 
 

This is both effed up and sad and is what happens when parents do not allow proper freedoms and growth opportunities during major development stages in life. You can’t give 7 year olds adult responsibilities (so you can create more kids), yet restrict the freedoms of your older kids and young adults to the point of retarding their personal growth.

Yes, Josh is responsible for his actions, but the dude was set up for failure all around by his idiot parents. JB’s tentacles are that strong and pervasive. 
Jill should be thanking her lucky stars for Derick. He stood up to JB, and although it’s hard now, they will be far, far better off in the end.

 

I recently reread the police report obtained by In Touch in 2015. (Available here on FJ.) I am blown away by how immature the children are in these interviews- and at the same time well programmed.

 

[ladyicantxplain]

25 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Josh has been fiercely attacked by Satan, whereas Jill has embraced and is nuturing a Spirit of Rebellion.  And is a girl.  I’m sure Derek has shot his mouth off to Jimboob and has no trouble verbally making mincemeat out of JB’s words.

Does anyone know if the Duggars etc believe in demon possession?

From a woman writing under a pseudonym about what she learned at ATI. Enjoy.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.net/2014/02/13/the-many-valuable-lessons-i-learned-in-ati-lauras-story/

Quote

Cabbage Patch Kid dolls will cause you to be demon-possessed. They will also cause your mom to have her labor stall, until the doll is found & burned, at which moment, labor will resume and the baby will be born within minutes. (Another anecdote, told in the Basic Seminar I believe.)

Quote

 To be on the safe side, better not have My Little Pony, Care Bears, troll dolls, and definitely no souvenirs from Africa such as masks or figurines. You will be demon-possessed. They must be burned. Simply throwing them away is not good enough to break the demon’s power over you. It doesn’t matter if such toys are your child’s favorite toy(s), they must be burned anyway.

Quote

If you get out from under your umbrella of authority, the boogeyman will get you and you will be either demon-possessed, raped, or both. (“Principle of Authority”)

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by ladyicantxplain
oops forgot the link

[feministxtian]

taken just now for the Sadie fans...

[OrchidBlossom]

50 minutes ago, justodd said:

Yup - not to mention how inherently classist *and* misogynistic it is to suggest/imply (as that post did) that only work commonly done by rich men was worth aspiring to or respecting. Very few jobs reliably meet that sort of criteria, and most are not really within reach for those without certain means to begin with. By that line of thinking, schoolteachers,  nursing assistants, caregivers, and social workers are all basically trash, since they’re more often underpaid and female than not. 

All work deserved to be treated with dignity and respect. If someone wouldn’t ever want to do a certain job themselves, that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t serve a purpose.

Jokes on OP, I'm in an industry that's extremely male dominated and I can think of like 6 people with PTSD off the top of my head. Plus my own. Plus the anxiety and depression, etc. Turns out picking a more "respectable" industry isn't any more protection than the Umbrella of Authority.

But you're totally correct. we can't all work in high finance or medicine or whatever. I mean OP says only do jobs rich dudes are doing or else you're being exploited, but in the same breath said that the abuse and exploitation in the sex work industry is somehow inherently worse than, say, emotional abuse or physical exploitation that underpaid teachers or migrant farm workers experience. Most jobs are inherently exploitive under capitalism, each in their own unique way with unique problems and yes, sex work happens to be an industry particularly rife with exploitation because of the potentially criminal and projected shame aspects of the work itself. That's the underlying problem here. Give people healthcare, counseling, housing, and a social safety net. Give them options. Let them work without fear or arrest. Listen to sex workers when they tell you what they need.

Of course there will still be problems, misogyny and racism are rampant, we know this. But easing the burdens of unfettered capitalism will do a hell of a lot better for sex workers than pretending they can all just become IT consultants.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

52 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

I’ve made it to DuggarTok. Take it with a grain of salt yadayadayada, but the comment section of this tiktok video has some juicy details about the family by people who claim to be from the Duggar’s town. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeV6jw4Y/ 

 

Run if you see them in a restaurant because they’re rude, one of the married girls was allegedly seen making out with her guy pre marriage while claiming they waited til marriage for that, they passed out autographed pictures while shopping, someone ‘confirming’ Anna’s older sister doesn’t like the Duggar’s, etc. I just found it interesting, and wanted people to know Duggar hate/snark has made it to tiktok, which I personally find is the most enjoyable social media. 

The thing I found most interesting was them buying up residential property in the state of Arkansas. She didn't go into detail, but I guess they then jack the rent prices up. Also she seems concerned that they will eventually own too much of the area in Northwest Arkansas. If you've seen documentaries about $cientology, then it might remind you of how $cientology owns much of Clearwater, Florida.

[coffeebean7]

48 minutes ago, pooplexed said:

 

I recently reread the police report obtained by In Touch in 2015. (Available here on FJ.) I am blown away by how immature the children are in these interviews- and at the same time well programmed.

 

The whole thing is insane. Especially now looking back, ugh. I totally forgot about parts of it (like the Oprah part).

Edited May 4, 2021 by coffeebean7

[Kjaerringa]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Nope, that’s not how he system works and we all know that, but don’t you wonder who/what Josh might have been if he had had more responsible parents who provided a more emotionally stable upbringing?  
What kind of parents sell their kids privacy and anonymity away  in order to support the family, while they keep having more kids? What loving parent blanket trains and sets up buddy groups and keeps having more kids?

Where were Josh’s stable role models? Where were his educational rights? 
How did his effed up childhood affect his outcome? How come a 33 YO can not lead his own life? Support his own family? Make his own choices? Why is he seemingly unable to live in our everyday world?

This man is effed up and some of this to have been the result of spending his formative years in an unhealthy home.

THIS is what I meant when I said I hold Michelle and JB responsible. They are the ones who did not allow Josh to have proper treatment after the first molestations, and who instilled in him the same ghastly IBLP beliefs that the girls were raised with. He was raised to believe even shoulders and knees of young girls were so powerful sexually that his sisters needed to warn him and his brothers by saying 'Nike'. He was quite literally told that the devil would tempt him by using the female form, and that even toddlers could seduce men if not modestly dressed. He was not taught that sexualizing children was wrong, merely that ACTING on those impulses was unrighteous. We can't say that the girls were raised in a manner that taught them they were responsible for sexual sin without addressing the issue that the boys heard the message that they were NOT responsible; that their sex drive could be stirred up by anything, so best get married young so you can do the sex. The boys were told they were 'over' the girls. Head of the family, because 'Adam transgressed, but Eve was deceived' so wimminfolk are weaker vessels, to be subservient,toserve their needs, at all ages ( See buddy system and jurisdiction assignments ). He had no real opportunity to grow up in a healthy manner. Does that mean he should not realize child porn and sexual abuse is wrong? Of course not. But in IBLP, I do not think it's treated as anything but sex outside of marriage, period. Quite honestly, I think IBLP would speak out more harshly about same sex encounters: that's where you hear references to the term 'abomination'.

So yes, he is responsible, because he is an adult...and I hope they throw the book at him, including YEARS of mandatory counseling, with provider and program to be determined by the judge, not JB...but I DO believe Michelle and JB are ultimately responsible for this entire tragic, nauseating scenario. They instilled the belief system in their children. They refused to get real help for Josh or his sisters....and both parents had the opportunity to make better choices. They knew a different way of life.

[Anna Bolinas]

1 hour ago, justodd said:

Yup - not to mention how inherently classist *and* misogynistic it is to suggest/imply (as that post did) that only work commonly done by rich men was worth aspiring to or respecting.

Imo, and with the caveat that I was not the original poster, the jobs that truly have power in society are jobs that are male dominated. And there's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg situation with that, because it's like, what comes first, the male influx into these industries or the industries themselves (although some jobs, like being a lawmaker, inherently have power)? How many men work as lawyers or doctors or lawmakers versus how many work in the sex industry? And those men who work in the sex industry, are they white, able-bodied, straight? Or are the white, able-bodied, straight men nine times out of ten working in higher-powered, higher-paid industries? Why is there such a discrepancy between the amount of women versus the amount of men in the sex industry? And why does it seem like when men have "powerful" jobs, there's real power behind it, whereas when women have "powerful" jobs, the power is entirely dependent on their sex appeal, mostly to men?

I would also say that, imo, one of the reasons that the sex industry comes in for so much criticism is because of the sexual violence that so many workers suffer from that workers in other jobs don't experience. When I'm working at my job as a cashier (and no, that's not my dream job), I am not expected to sexually service the people who come to my register. I am not expected to fulfill their sexual or romantic fantasies. There's not that kind of protection in the sex industry--because that's the whole point. Moreover, while women (and some men) are under sexual threat at various jobs outside of the sex industry, including migrant work, that does not mean that the problems within the sex industry are just something to be shrugged off. I also don't think it's helpful to say that when we overthrow capitalism, everyone will be happy and nothing exploitative will ever happen again, because that's not the reality we live in right now, and to me, it would be better to combat the most exploitative industries right now. I can say for me, I would rather be at a cash register than have to have sex or perform sexual acts on camera for money.

Obviously people are going to have different opinions, but sometimes it feels like feminism gets flattened to "it's empowering if I say it is," without thinking about what empowerment and power really means for women as class and not just for individuals, because there's nothing stopping someone like Anna, for instance, saying that she is empowered in her marriage and her cult because she feels like she's empowered, and no one can tell her otherwise because that would be invalidating. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Anna Bolinas
Missed a word

[CyborgKin]

3 hours ago, justodd said:

Yup - not to mention how inherently classist *and* misogynistic it is to suggest/imply (as that post did) that only work commonly done by rich men was worth aspiring to or respecting. Very few jobs reliably meet that sort of criteria, and most are not really within reach for those without certain means to begin with. By that line of thinking, schoolteachers,  nursing assistants, caregivers, and social workers are all basically trash, since they’re more often underpaid and female than not. 

All work deserved to be treated with dignity and respect. If someone wouldn’t ever want to do a certain job themselves, that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t serve a purpose.

And 'computer technician' was women's work... until it became associated with too much power and women were mostly crowded out.  

 

edit to add:

Nike!  Because women should only draw attention to their countenance.

Spoiler

(large image of a headless Nike statue from wikipedia)

Edited May 4, 2021 by CyborgKin

[Sabine]

hmm, i wonder if the smuggar was caught up in this https://www.rawstory.com/german-police-bust-darknet-child-porn-network-with-400-000-members/

 

Quote

 

German police said Monday they had shut down "one of the biggest darknet child pornography platforms in the world" and arrested four of its members in a series of raids in mid-April.

The platform, named as "Boystown", had existed since 2019, counted over 400,000 members and was "set up for the worldwide exchange of child pornography", federal police said in a statement.

The darknet forum allowed users to communicate with others and share graphic image and video content which included "serious sexual abuse of toddlers", the statement said.

 

Quote

Investigators added that the months-long, German-instigated operation had been coordinated by Europol and supported by law enforcement in the Netherlands, Sweden, the United States and Canada.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sabine
trying to quote from the article. meh.

[They call me madre]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Yes, Jill is better off, but how hurtful for her that leaving and cleaving and following her headship, JUST LIKE HER FATHER ADVOCATED FOR ALL HER LIFE, became the very thing that grossly affected her relationship with her family.

How confusing and hurtful to realize that your lying father is also conditional. How awful to know that if as a married adult you tried to live your own life, make your own family decisions and be autonomous, your control freak and money hoarding father would cut you out of the family’s life. 
 

Play by daddy’s rules, no matter what you do, you’re still accepted into the fold- it’s gotta sting, like a big, old slap in the face.

So I watch TikTok regularly I clearly have a problem.  Anyway someone on there has been following this debacle.  She posted screen shots of Derrick Dillard responding to TLC and someone else regarding the situation and how he and Jill knew everything and were told to say nothing yada yada yada....... it was juicy.  Let me see if I can post the screen shot I took.  Let’s just say it’s a matter of time before Derek and chill or going to spill the beans on everything and everyone!  

[JordynDarby5]

4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

taken just now for the Sadie fans...

Oh, she's so cute! Great name.

[FunDieDumDum]

@Coconut Flan shared this in the previous thread (thanks for that!).

Here some NWA examples: https://search.justice.gov/search?query=project+safe+childhood&op=Search&affiliate=justice-usao-arw

I was looking through it, and have a question for one of our legal minds. Every case I looked at referred to a prison sentence followed by a similar or sometimes longer period of “supervised release”. To me this sounds a lot like parole, but several of you said parole doesn’t exist in the federal system. Can you explain what supervised release means, and what the conditions for it usually might be? 

I’m hoping for something that will maybe help keep Smuggar away from children for a long, long time. 

[Foudeb]

5 hours ago, justodd said:

Yup - not to mention how inherently classist *and* misogynistic it is to suggest/imply (as that post did) that only work commonly done by rich men was worth aspiring to or respecting. 

That is most emphatically not what I said. 

I replied to another poster who was saying they had considered sex work, because it is empowering and you get to set your own hours! 

My reply was, if it was so great, why don't we see able-bodied men with options do it in significant numbers. Could that have something to do with how sex work means you are at high risk of becoming a rape survivor, contracting an std, or being murdered? Perhaps? And the line "all industries are abusive because we all work for money, therefore there is nothing wrong with sex work" is seriously misguided. 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

1 hour ago, Foudeb said:

That is most emphatically not what I said. 

I replied to another poster who was saying they had considered sex work, because it is empowering and you get to set your own hours! 

My reply was, if it was so great, why don't we see able-bodied men with options do it in significant numbers. Could that have something to do with how sex work means you are at high risk of becoming a rape survivor, contracting an std, or being murdered? Perhaps? And the line "all industries are abusive because we all work for money, therefore there is nothing wrong with sex work" is seriously misguided. 

So it wasn’t just classist and misogynistic it was ableist too. Got it. Work done by disabled women isn’t worth dignity, thanks for clearing that up. 

Sex work is just as worthy of respect as any other industry. The way you’re phrasing it about the violence sex workers often face is coming off to me as pretty victim blaming. The fact is there aren’t always options, that doesn’t make the work any less valid or the people any Less worthy of protection. Other jobs are inherently dangerous and often taken by people without options, US military for example.

[Mrs Ms]

My brainbleach thought of the day: If Josh for some reason looks likely to serve more than the 3.5-4 years people are expecting, I wonder if the Duggar’s would change their tune about IVF. Baby train doesn’t even need to stop for incarceration!!11!! 

[CarrotCake]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Ms said:

My brainbleach thought of the day: If Josh for some reason looks likely to serve more than the 3.5-4 years people are expecting, I wonder if the Duggar’s would change their tune about IVF. Baby train doesn’t even need to stop for incarceration!!11!! 

How would they do that? Would he be allowed to get the right material during a visit and then do his thing and return it?

Its not like he can just collect it in a tissue and then hand to Anna ?

[GreenBeans]

3 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Oh, she's so cute! Great name.

It sounds like one of Alyssa (Bates) Webster’s name choices. ?

[Peaches-n-Beans]

20 minutes ago, Mrs Ms said:

My brainbleach thought of the day: If Josh for some reason looks likely to serve more than the 3.5-4 years people are expecting, I wonder if the Duggar’s would change their tune about IVF. Baby train doesn’t even need to stop for incarceration!!11!! 

There’s a lot of images I did not need, josh impregnating his wife from prison is definitely one of the, ??

[Mrs Ms]

22 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

How would they do that? Would he be allowed to get the right material during a visit and then do his thing and return it?

Its not like he can just collect it in a tissue and then hand to Anna ?

No, JB would have to post bond for anything to happen.

My brain is a bit contrary, particularly when tired and after a drink or two. People were posting that at least a long sentence would make the current pregnancy the last baby, so it said “challenge accepted!”

Once I got past the gross part it was actually amusing thinking of the mental contortions they would have to come up with to make it happen. 

[carmenp97]

1 hour ago, CarrotCake said:

How would they do that? Would he be allowed to get the right material during a visit and then do his thing and return it?

Its not like he can just collect it in a tissue and then hand to Anna ?

They would cryopreserve his sperm prior to incarceration. It’s actually not difficult nor is it super expensive. They could have even have Anna “collect” the sample to prevent Smuggar sinning further through masturbation.

[Smee]

10 hours ago, Anna Bolinas said:

Someone in the last thread (can't remember who, exactly) said they don't think we can call Anna an abuse victim because there's no evidence Josh abuses her. But frankly, with how fucked up their entire cult mentality is, I think it's more likely than not that Josh does abuse Anna, and I would have to see evidence to prove that he doesn't. This doesn't mean no one can criticize Anna, because I do understand the criticism, but I think it's crazy to think that because Anna Stepford-smiles her way through life, that Josh is somehow a good husband.

That statement also bothers me because there IS evidence that Anna is abused, but what was meant was that there's no evidence of physical violence towards her. "It's not that bad; it can't really be abuse because he didn't hit me" is all too common and we need to break that pattern of thinking.

From the UN:

Quote

Domestic abuse, also called "domestic violence" or "intimate partner violence", can be defined as a pattern of behavior in any relationship that is used to gain or maintain power and control over an intimate partner. Abuse is physical, sexual, emotional, economic or psychological actions or threats of actions that influence another person. This includes any behaviors that frighten, intimidate, terrorize, manipulate, hurt, humiliate, blame, injure, or wound someone.

Does your partner…

Embarrass or make fun of you in front of your friends or family?

Put down your accomplishments?

Make you feel like you are unable to make decisions?

Use intimidation or threats to gain compliance?

Tell you that you are nothing without them?

Treat you roughly—grab, push, pinch, shove or hit you?

Call you several times a night or show up to make sure you are where you said you would be?

Use drugs or alcohol as an excuse for saying hurtful things or abusing you?

Blame you for how they feel or act?

Pressure you sexually for things you aren’t ready for?

Make you feel like there is “no way out” of the relationship?

Prevent you from doing things you want – like spending time with friends or family?

Try to keep you from leaving after a fight or leave you somewhere after a fight to “teach you a lesson”?

 

Do you...

Sometimes feel scared of how your partner may behave?

Constantly make excuses to other people for your partner’s behaviour?

Believe that you can help your partner change if only you changed something about yourself?

Try not to do anything that would cause conflict or make your partner angry?

Always do what your partner wants you to do instead of what you want?

Stay with your partner because you are afraid of what your partner would do if you broke up?

 

I would argue that all fundie women are abused. Their husbands, fathers, male leaders within the church all exert power and control over them through economic and emotional manipulation, if nothing else. The internalised pressure these women are under to have sex whenever their partner wants - no matter how young their baby is and how they feel in their body or mind - is sexual abuse. This Free Jinger's raison d'être, right? To expose how fundamentalism itself is a system built upon and maintained by the abuse of women and children right up until they grow into adults who perpetuate the cycle of abuse with their own kids. Anna is abused. She's been abused her whole life. And now she is abusing her children, whether with PVC pipe and physical intimidation, or with manipulation, humiliation and the fear of hell. 

Almost all the women I know who have escaped abusive relationships have done so out of motivation to break the generational cycle and protect their children. One had returned to her ex-husband time and time again after his verbal and physical attacks, but the final straw came when he told their son that he was a mistake. Another realised she had to leave when her three year old began showing the same behaviour (head butting) that his POS father did towards her, and she couldn't bear the thought of another woman one day suffering at the hands of her son the way she suffered. For the sake of the M kids, I really hope that this is a bridge too far for Anna. Because the alternative is that in another ten or fifteen years we're here debating whether Myckenzie is at fault for staying in a violent marriage and observing how controlling Michael is of his wife.

[carmenp97]

2 minutes ago, Smee said:

That statement also bothers me because there IS evidence that Anna is abused, but what was meant was that there's no evidence of physical violence towards her. "It's not that bad; it can't really be abuse because he didn't hit me" is all too common and we need to break that pattern of thinking.

From the UN:

 

I would argue that all fundie women are abused. Their husbands, fathers, male leaders within the church all exert power and control over them through economic and emotional manipulation, if nothing else. The internalised pressure these women are under to have sex whenever their partner wants - no matter how young their baby is and how they feel in their body or mind - is sexual abuse. This Free Jinger's raison d'être, right? To expose how fundamentalism itself is a system built upon and maintained by the abuse of women and children right up until they grow into adults who perpetuate the cycle of abuse with their own kids. Anna is abused. She's been abused her whole life. And now she is abusing her children, whether with PVC pipe and physical intimidation, or with manipulation, humiliation and the fear of hell. 

This. ?. We often forget that all of these kids, including Smuggar and especially any woman in this cult, come from a childhood of severe emotional abuse. Likely Anna spouts whatever her headship orders her to say, and she sees nothing wrong with this because she’s been trained by a lifetime of emotional and verbal abuse to do just that. Maybe Anna did know what was going on (I doubt it...I think it’s far more likely that Josh hid everything) but was told to say and do nothing. 
 

Emotional and verbal abuse leaves scars that run far deeper than physical abuse. Sometimes no one knows or believes the accusers or they are far too scared to speak out, or they have no desire to change it because they are conditioned to believe that life should be this way. Anna is a case of the last, and it’s been indoctrinated into her from childhood. Michelle knew differently and acted like reprehensible anyways; Anna, and all “cradle” ATI kiddos were formatively programmed to believe they were to obey without question.

[Foudeb]

1 hour ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

So it wasn’t just classist and misogynistic it was ableist too. Got it. Work done by disabled women isn’t worth dignity, thanks for clearing that up. 

Sex work is just as worthy of respect as any other industry. The way you’re phrasing it about the violence sex workers often face is coming off to me as pretty victim blaming. The fact is there aren’t always options, that doesn’t make the work any less valid or the people any Less worthy of protection. Other jobs are inherently dangerous and often taken by people without options, US military for example.

So you consider getting sodomised multiple times a day is empowering. 

Thank you for clearing that up, and please let me know what you're on, we can all use a good recommendation these days.