[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[OrchidBlossom]

2 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Yes, I agree with you entirely.  My intention was not to offend others, only Smuggar.  Apologies to anyone who was offended.  

I understood your intentions weren't malicious, but I always appreciate someone owning that. I want to offend Smugs in any way possible! Just not at the expense of anyone else and sometimes I know we all get so heated we say or think things about a fundie who is a smarmy bastard (or in this case, a pedophile for whom the seventh circle of hell isn't hot enough) without realizing it could have an impact on others! I like to be gently given that reminder, so I try to do the same to others.

[Howl]

20 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

German officials have shut down a huge CP website with over 400,000 subscribers.

Apparently the US was heavily involved in the takedown.  If you are an American indulging your evil self by viewing child sex abuse videos, you can expect a knock on the door, if it hasn't happened already. 

[OrchidBlossom]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

I have had people speculate that I have a personal issue with this and that's why I'm so obnoxious about it.  Nope.  I give zero fucks what anyone here thinks of my body but as someone who lived with a pretty serious ED when I was younger I do totally understand when people tell me how reading that stuff is damaging.  

 

I struggled with ED for over half my life, happily in recovery for about 2 years ?  I was lucky (in a sense) enough to be sent to a brilliant intensive treatment program who not only got me the help I needed on that end, but also recognized that the problem was exacerbated by PTSD. They truly saved my life. I hope you are well and recovered, but I know some of those things never quite go away!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Howl said:

Apparently the US was heavily involved in the takedown.  If you are an American indulging your evil self by viewing child sex abuse videos, you can expect a knock on the door, if it hasn't happened already. 

Apart from this investigation, I wonder how many in fundy circles are nervous right now for this very reason.  Jumping at every knock at the door.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, OrchidBlossom said:

I struggled with ED for over half my life, happily in recovery for about 2 years ?  I was lucky (in a sense) enough to be sent to a brilliant intensive treatment program who not only got me the help I needed on that end, but also recognized that the problem was exacerbated by PTSD. They truly saved my life. I hope you are well and recovered, but I know some of those things never quite go away!

I have been in 'recovery' for a few decades in action, but it's in quotes because I've never been able to funny shake the mindset.  Weirdly, with getting older it's no longer about my body image as I'm comfortable in my skin....but missing it as a coping mechanism when I'm in a bad place and need the comfort the control gave me is something I will struggle with for the rest of my life.  

I don't read the Shamblin thread often because it reminds me how easy it would be to slip back even after literally 30 years.  

Not so fun fact when I started clean eating last year I got a little obsessed with evaluating everything I ate and my daughter sent me a link to a definition of orthorexia

Quote

Individuals living with orthorexia are extremely focused – and often obsessive – over the quality and purity of their food. Individuals with this condition often limit “go foods” to those that are organic, farm fresh, whole, raw and/or vegan. The quantity of food is typically less important than that quality.

So even though I was eating properly and better than ever yep....obsession with control was back and I had no idea this was even a thing.  

I am so glad you got the help you needed and sound like you're doing great.  I know how hard it is and so proud of you, internet stranger, for kicking it's ass.  I hope everyone who needs it can get the great help you got. 

 

[DarkAnts]

Please forgive me if this has already been covered. He was charged by a grand jury. He and his family knew this was coming. Why did they release the pregnancy announcement with all this happening? Were they hoping it would go away. Were they hoping to guilt the grand jury jury into not pressing charges?

[closetcagebaby]

Just now, DarkAnts said:

Please forgive me if this has already been covered. He was charged by a grand jury. He and his family knew this was coming. Why did they release the pregnancy announcement with all this happening? Were they hoping it would go away. Were they hoping to guilt the grand jury jury into not pressing charges?

It’s not clear that they knew exactly when this was coming. 

[Cheetah]

One thing that's different between 2021 and 2015 is the number and percent of Duggar grandchildren who aren't Josh and Anna's and I wonder whether that will make any difference in JB and Michelle's decisions around supporting Josh.  Back in May of 2015 which is I think when the first scandal was uncovered, there were M1-3 and newborn Israel, plus Anna was expecting M4 and Jessa was expecting.   And for the Duggar children, Joy on down were still minors.... so all of the lost boys were still in the thick of teen and preteen life.  I guess I'm thinking that JB and Michelle were probably quite keen to make sure their grandkids stayed nearby and prioritized Anna sticking with Josh over the safety of M1-3 or what's best for Anna.  Now, though... I could see it going either way... JB and M could double down again on making sure Anna doesn't leave, but maybe it's less of a big deal since they now have umpteen other grandkids nearby.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, DarkAnts said:

Please forgive me if this has already been covered. He was charged by a grand jury. He and his family knew this was coming. Why did they release the pregnancy announcement with all this happening? Were they hoping it would go away. Were they hoping to guilt the grand jury jury into not pressing charges?

I believe Josh, JB and M knew it was coming (if not the exact day) but I'm not sure if Anna did and I would doubt anyone else in the family was told (although I could be wrong.)

 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, Mela99 said:

I keep going over this in my head and I just cannot understand. Jill did what she was supposed to do - leave and cleave and all that crap.

She's still the bigger sinner here, the black sheep, whatever else you want to call it. 

I also think there  must be something else in DimWit's head about this - Amy, the rebel Duggar seems more welcome than Jill is. I wish I could understand his thought process although I'm sure it's nothing more than "Jill made me look bad and lost me money"

I agree about the absurdity of all this, but I think a part of it may be that JB feels his daughter turned against him whereas Josh still “depends” on him and Amy was always supposed to be the “non-fundie” cousin whose life contrasted with that of his own kids.

If I remember correctly, Jill was supposedly JB’s favorite, and he sort of picked Dereck for her. Then instead of Dereck becoming a Duggar acolyte, acknowledging JB as the patriarch, Dereck wants control over his and Jill’s life, and actually asserts himself. So JB is feeling “betrayed.”  

 

[libgirl2]

13 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I believe Josh, JB and M knew it was coming (if not the exact day) but I'm not sure if Anna did and I would doubt anyone else in the family was told (although I could be wrong.)

 

I think they did too. Anna might have been told part of the story but I have a feeling the siblings (unless someone is testifying) were not told until  at most the day before. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think they did too. Anna might have been told part of the story but I have a feeling the siblings (unless someone is testifying) were not told until  at most the day before. 

I could be totally wrong here, but I do doubt they knew the exact day because JB and M were at Big Sandy scheduled to speak.  I can't imagine being there in the midst of all those people gossiping would have been the plan, but who knows with these people.  

Does anyone know if they'd given their speech already, or if it was cancelled.  I had read that the topic was raising up Godly children or something like that, but that could have been snark.  Anyone know what their topic was.

If that was the actual topics of their speech ngl that's hilarious that people paid for that.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I could be totally wrong here, but I do doubt they knew the exact day because JB and M were at Big Sandy scheduled to speak.  I can't imagine being there in the midst of all those people gossiping would have been the plan, but who knows with these people.  

Does anyone know if they'd given their speech already, or if it was cancelled.  I had read that the topic was raising up Godly children or something like that, but that could have been snark.  Anyone know what their topic was.

If that was the actual topics of their speech ngl that's hilarious that people paid for that.

I don't know how arrests like this exactly go down (which is good). They could have been scheduled for weeks or months prior. If they didn't cancel and knew something was going to happen, they might have wanted it to appear "business as usual" 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't know how arrests like this exactly go down (which is good). They could have been scheduled for weeks or months prior. If they didn't cancel and knew something was going to happen, they might have wanted it to appear "business as usual" 

All I know from the paperwork @ofMatthew posted is that the warrant was issued the day before it was served.  

Maybe one of our legal experts here can tell us what the usual time is between grand jury indictment and issuance of the warrant?

[viii]

JB and M may be a lot of things, but I don't think even they would be so bold to go preach at Big Sandy, knowing that their son was to be arrested that day for CP. 

[kachuu]

If the feds are dealing with Josh, they may not share information with anyone but Josh, right? That gives him the ability to spin the story to his family in his favor. If Anna was there, maybe there is just shock and denial?

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I do wonder if JD would actually help him flee. 

I doubt it very much.  Not only do I think it unlikely that JD would put himself in the position of helping his brother escape from the law but I doubt JB would ask him to or condone it if JD did it on his own. they would not put Josh ahead of protecting the Duggar brand.

When JB and Michelle hushed up and hid the molestation initially, they were not just protecting Josh (who was young at the time) but their brand.  When they defended him publicly after it all came out, they were trying to save that brand.  When they sent him to “Jesus Jail” to “rehab” after Ashley Madison they were trying very hard to keep the “We are a righteous family” thing going.  They could love and forgive a Josh who had sinned (that Satan again) and show their care for Anna and the M-kids as part of their continuing family strength.

Helping Josh escape from the country to avoid the consequences of actions that have (again) brought shame on the family is just not the same.   

 

4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Just a thought...because I really can't see JB & M letting the golden boy go down. 

You know, I just don’t see such a great love for the “golden boy.”  Everything they have done to protect/enable Josh in the past has been largely self-protection (protecting their brand, or their image of themselves or both).  Have they at some point stuck their necks out for the sake of Josh (or any of their kids)?

[Bbfamteam]

It is going to be very interesting to see how everything plays out. My imagination has JB & M meeting with PR and lawyers trying to figure out how the best way to handle Josh’s charges to minimize damage to the brand. Like most of you I think money is JBs ultimate God whether he recognizes it or not.  If they bail Josh out and then publicly support him, particularly if the evidence the feds have on him is solid, then I foresee major disaster for the brand in general. The general Christian population who sees the Duggar’s on the surface and believes they are wholesome people will be horrified that they would support someone involved in CSA images. Sure some leg humpers and possibly other ATI/ILBP may support them but the majority of people will not. If you look at Bret Alan Smith and his legal issues (he was married to a Morton) his parents have staunchly defended him to the point where I think three of their daughters no longer have anything to do with the family.  I could see fractures happening in the Duggar family in a similar manner, especially if the money dries up. 
 

With the conviction rate being above 95% for the federal prosecutors Josh would be a moron not to take a plea deal. I can’t imagine a scenario in which he is actually innocent given how the feds dot their I’s and cross their T’s before they seek an indictment but it would be on his defense to prove he is innocent AND if they lose, I suspect the judge would throw the book at him instead of him getting around 3-4 years. If he pleads guilty though, how do you spin that? I guess I could see him saying he was innocent but the risk of losing and being put away for 20-40 years was just too much.  Anna might believe that but I doubt most people will. I could also see Josh being stupid or arrogant enough to go to trial and then crying persecution when he loses and ends up with a long sentence. 

[Four is Enough]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

There was more than just Uber receipts, though I don't recall the specifics.  The threads about this back in the day were very contentious, but as per usual the details of what was found/reported are in there for anyone who cares enough to revisit that.

I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with these posts, LOL! No thanks!

I don't see Josh running. 1. he's lazy. 2. He thinks he's going to beat this. 3. JB won't finance him going to another country without supervision.

[TN-peach]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All I know from the paperwork @ofMatthew posted is that the warrant was issued the day before it was served.  

Maybe one of our legal experts here can tell us what the usual time is between grand jury indictment and issuance of the warrant?

Grand Juries meet in secret. It is likely that the original search warrant served on the car lot didn't say what exactly they were looking for but what items they were seizing.  Even if the search warrant did say something about child pornography (the legal term but more accurate is child sex abuse images), only the person served with the warrant and his lawyer would have seen it.  The government would have kept it very secret along with the investigation, the grand jury procedures, etc.

My guess as what happened:

Search warrant for electronic devices without given the exact reason for the search or Josh kept it secret.

Long investigation but things would've been quiet.  The Duggars may have thought nothing happened with the investigation because things were so quiet.

Grand jury met and then indicted - No idea how many cases this grand jury sat for or for how long. This is done in secrecy.  Witnesses are told not tell anyone about their testimony.  Attorneys are not to talk about grand jury procedures.

Once the grand jury indicted Josh then the arrest warrant was issued.  Only once the arrest warrant is made public would the family knew of the actual charges unless Josh or his attorneys told someone what the arrest warrant said. Josh probably told JB when he said he needed to turn himself in and that he needed an attorney.  JB would've wanted to know why. 

 

[feministxtian]

3 minutes ago, Bbfamteam said:

I can’t imagine a scenario in which he is actually innocent given how the feds dot their I’s and cross their T’s before they seek an indictment but it would be on his defense to prove he is innocent AND if they lose, I suspect the judge would throw the book at him instead of him getting around 3-4 years.

The high powered lawyer from Missouri allegedly has beaten SA cases brought by the feds. This is going to be interesting. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, feministxtian said:

The high powered lawyer from Missouri allegedly has beaten SA cases brought by the feds. This is going to be interesting. 

Do you have a link?

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Do you have a link?

The lawyer's name is Justin Gelfand

https://margulisgelfand.com/team/justingelfand/

Representative Matters

Won complete acquittal in a Missouri sex crimes jury trial.

Won rare, post-indictment dismissal in a federal felony immigration fraud case in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri.

Won acquittal of all conspiracy and corporate tax evasion counts in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the District of Kansas spanning four weeks of government evidence and 117 government witnesses; the Government was represented by a team of three attorneys from the U.S. Attorney’s Office and the Department of Justice’s Tax Division.

Won acquittal of all of the most serious counts—those carrying mandatory minimums of decades in prison and maximums of life—in a federal sex trafficking jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri; in a pleading, the federal prosecutor claimed her star witness “was mercilessly questioned by defense counsel [Justin Gelfand].”

Won acquittal of all felony false tax return counts in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri on behalf of a Missouri accountant.

Won acquittal of felony tax evasion count in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the Western District of Missouri on behalf of a Missouri business owner; sole count of conviction (26 U.S.C. 7212(a)) is currently on appeal.

Won a rare withdrawal of 17-year old guilty plea after a Missouri court found “manifest injustice” and ruled in Justin’s client’s favor.

Won a post-indictment dismissal on behalf of a Missouri landowner charged with crimes relating to his property.

Obtained a favorable settlement in a complicated civil litigation matter on behalf of a multinational company.

Persuaded the IRS not to prosecute a business owner under investigation for tax fraud.

Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a juvenile accused of a sex crime.

Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a man accused of a sex crime against a child.

Persuaded the U.S. Department of Justice not to prosecute a large business owner.

Persuaded the U.S. Department of Justice not to prosecute a small business owner.

Persuaded authorities not to prosecute a healthcare worker under investigation for child endangerment.

Client charged in both Missouri and Illinois with more than 10 fraud felonies carrying the possibility of life in prison; negotiated a resolution of probation with no criminal conviction.

Client charged in Missouri with six criminal tax felonies; negotiated a resolution of probation with no criminal conviction.

Client charged in what Justice Department called the “largest software piracy case ever prosecuted in U.S. history”; negotiated resolution of probation.

Client charged with eight federal felonies carrying a mandatory minimum of 8 years and a statutory maximum of 43 years in federal prison; negotiated a plea to one count carrying a 2-year sentence.

Represented numerous individuals and entities with previously undisclosed offshore bank accounts; all resolved favorably.

Represented numerous individuals and entities in serious civil and criminal matters resolved favorably and entirely out of court with no publicity.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I doubt his work in Washington gave him enough information on how to use a stapler properly.  

????  Agreed with the whole message, but this is a gem. ????

[justodd]

8 hours ago, Foudeb said:That is most emphatically not what I said. 

I replied to another poster who was saying they had considered sex work, because it is empowering and you get to set your own hours! 

My reply was, if it was so great, why don't we see able-bodied men with options do it in significant numbers. Could that have something to do with how sex work means you are at high risk of becoming a rape survivor, contracting an std, or being murdered? Perhaps? And the line "all industries are abusive because we all work for money, therefore there is nothing wrong with sex work" is seriously misguided. 

Short version: Fewer able bodied men with options do sex work because they wouldn’t make any money, if they tried.

Long version: More straight men patronize sex workers than any other sexual demographic. They aren’t going to patronize male workers, or care much about male performers in their pornography, so there’s less demand for men on the whole, and straight men in particular. Before the internet changed so much about how porn is made and distributed, it was actually fairly difficult for straight men to gain a footing in front of the camera because there were more of them wanting to do it than judged worthwhile (especially before Viagra made getting/maintaining an erection a lot easier). They got paid less than their female coworkers, were less likely to build followings who would drop cash on their work, and generally didn’t have a lot of options. Very few women hire male prostitutes, and though male strippers and strip clubs are popular for bachelorette parties and the like, they’re less likely to be regular customers or high enough in number to keep dozens of clubs open in one city like there are with clubs featuring women dancing. Even today, on something like OnlyFans, where anyone who wants can put themselves out there for a price, you’ll notice that women make more than men. None of this is a coincidence, or has anything to do with the potential for abuse and exploitation. Abuse and exploitation  do exist (and I’ve never tried to say they didn’t), but there’s a pretty clear track record of efforts to further restrict and punish resulting in more abuse and less protection, so yeah, I’m gonna remain on the side that believes the solutions to these issues are more likely to be found in things like decriminalization, making it less dangerous for workers to report abuse, and ending the stigma. 

Sex work, in all reality, is one of the few industries where the participation of women is worth more than that of straight men. Straight men (and I’m specifying straight men because they’re a larger demographic than gay men, and consume more as a result), with or without “options”, don’t turn to it because it doesn’t really hold many options for *them*.

 

This is not the “gotcha” that you seem to think it is.