[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[justodd]

5 hours ago, Foudeb said:

For the record, I have never criticised sex workers. To each their own. As another poster said, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

I suspect several people are projecting their own (internalised) prejudices on me. 

I do feel unmitigated contempt for johns and pimps and for that I do not apologise. It is immoral to rent a human for sex.

You can’t tell someone they’re projecting something onto you when you’re actually saying it. If you don’t like being called out for your prejudice, the only way to prevent it is to not state it so emphatically. 
 

Just like I’ve known people in sex work, I’ve also known some johns. They were decent people you’d probably never suspect. 

[justoneoftwo]

The Fed success rate at trial is NOT 92%. That is for all charges brought, and most are plea deals.  About 16% of trials end in not guilty,still a low number, but it's a very different one.

Also pleading guilty requires admitting you are guilty to a judge, you are in the record saying you are guilty.  In theory this is to stop people and lawyers from just taking a plea while innocent. Of course people do, but with affirmatively telling the court you are guilty its then hard to tell the public your not

[Antimony]

8 minutes ago, justodd said:

You can’t tell someone they’re projecting something onto you when you’re actually saying it. If you don’t like being called out for your prejudice, the only way to prevent it is to not state it so emphatically. 
 

Just like I’ve known people in sex work, I’ve also known some johns. They were decent people you’d probably never suspect. 

For topics like this, I honestly can't recommend the podcast "You're Wrong About" (with Michael Hobbes and Sarah Marshall) enough. I'm listening to their episode on Sex Offenders right now --- it's interesting and really highlights how Josh is kind of...typical not because he downloaded CSA images but because his first offense was within the family. Apparently, *most* childhood sexual abuse is child-to-child and almost always a child over 12 to a child under 12. (What's sickening is that the vast majority of this offending children are acting out something that has happened to them already...). It also talks about some of what we've covered -- "Sex offender" is sufficiently vague that we're grouping active pedophiles with people who mooned somebody or pissed in a park. 

They also have episodes on Sex Workers and what they point out that's fascinating is that in the pre-internet days, Johns were working effectively as secretaries, schedulers, and sometimes body guards. In an Internet age and with OnlyFans, many SWers can do those "administrative" tasks themselves because it's easier to manage things with everybody being computer literate and good at scheduling. It makes sense, but it isn't necessarily obvious. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Antimony

[Howl]

and this timely reminder: 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Howl

[Foudeb]

35 minutes ago, justodd said:

Short version: Fewer able bodied men with options do sex work because they wouldn’t make any money, if they tried.

 

Most johns are men, yes. 

But if, like you seem to imply, sex work is just like any other kind of work, surely the sex of your customer doesn't matter. 

You can't say its a simple transaction, a service for money, like buying groceries or hiring a plumber, then you have sex with people you are not attracted to. This is not just about sexual orientation - all sex work is about overriding desire. Otherwise it would not be a transaction but just consensual sex. There is nothing stopping straight men from prostituting themselves to gay men if they so chose. 

Johns don't want to hear that though. It would spoil the fantasy - that they are irresistible and would be having sex regardless of payment. They would much rather think of themselves as Richard Gere in pretty woman. 

But that's precisely what it is - a fantasy. The vast majority of sex work is just not palatable. You probably don't want to hear this if you're friends with johns as you might feel it makes you complicit. 

Shrug. It's a free world, and we are all entitled to our beliefs.

Mine is that no one is entitled to sex, not even people who pay for it. 

 

 

[EmCatlyn]

50 minutes ago, Bbfamteam said:

.... Like most of you I think money is JBs ultimate God whether he recognizes it or not.  ....

You know, I disagree.   Money is terribly important to JimBob, but I think it’s “power” and “reputation” that matter most.  Money is important for the power it gives, not in itself.  As I recall, one of their big things in the beginning was how to live debt free, and there were times before Too Many Kids and Counting where they really didn’t have enough money.  What they did have was the beginning of a brand, JBs start at a political career, etc.

Whatever choices JB makes about Josh, I think protecting the brand, maintaining a position of power, and protecting his own reputation are going to be more important than the financial cost.  

[SassyPants]

10 minutes ago, Howl said:

and this timely reminder: 

 

So much worse when you realize the perversion is cloaked in Jesus, salvation, Satan and hell.

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

You know, I disagree.   Money is terribly important to JimBob, but I think it’s “power” and “reputation” that matter most.  Money is important for the power it gives, not in itself.  As I recall, one of their big things in the beginning was how to live debt free, and there were times before Too Many Kids and Counting where they really didn’t have enough money.  What they did have was the beginning of a brand, JBs start at a political career, etc.

Whatever choices JB makes about Josh, I think protecting the brand, maintaining a position of power, and protecting his own reputation are going to be more important than the financial cost.  

He needs both. Without the money he has no recognition or power- And he damn well needs the money to support and control all those kids and counting. 

[EmCatlyn]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

He needs both. Without the money he has no recognition or power- And he damn well needs the money to support and control all those kids and counting. 

That’s why I said that he valued the money as a means to power and so forth.

As I see it, he wants to be Important and Influential.  Before they had much money, he threw a lot of what he had on a gamble for political office.  

He cares a lot about money, and I agree that he uses some of that money to maintain power over his kids.  But I think it is the power and status more than the money that attracts him. (To put it another way, he doesn’t strike me as the sort that would invest a lot in a business that he couldn’t control even if it paid great dividends unless being an investor added to his status.)

Back to the subject of Josh and what JB might do to help him, I think that JB will only spend big money on Josh’s defense and/or comfort if to do so protects the brand and/or increases JBs power.   

[CyborgKin]

3 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

VERY large.  Smuggar is quite pudgy.

I can't see that word without remembering the character nicknamed 'Pudge' from the ACE curriculum comics.

[justodd]

27 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

Most johns are men, yes. 

But if, like you seem to imply, sex work is just like any other kind of work, surely the sex of your customer doesn't matter. 

It’s incredibly hard for me to believe you’re not being willfully obtuse when you say things like this. 
 

Straight men (and yes, I am continuing to emphasize them as consumers because they’re the demographic most likely to pay) generally want female bodied people with breasts and vaginas, so yes, they’re going to seek out practitioners who meet that criteria.

Someone who is four foot ten and ninety pounds soaking wet will not go to a big & tall shop to buy their clothing, even though clothing is what they sell.

No one would go to a dentist for a vasectomy, even though dentists are also health workers.

Millions of people, every minute of every day, choose where we will obtain goods and services based on what we prioritize, and some demographics will have more cause to be patrons than others. It’s patently absurd to say the sex of someone patronizing sex work should be irrelevant when an overwhelming majority of patrons are of the same sex, and I genuinely do not understand why you think that “argument” contributes anything or makes any sense, whatsoever. 
 

@Antimony - I love “You’re Wrong About!” They’re one of the first I listen to, when new episodes drop. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by justodd
Adding the @ to avoid a double post

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

Also pleading guilty requires admitting you are guilty to a judge, you are in the record saying you are guilty.  In theory this is to stop people and lawyers from just taking a plea while innocent. Of course people do, but with affirmatively telling the court you are guilty its then hard to tell the public your not

What about pleading “No contest” to charges? I believe that’s saying I’m not admitting guilt, but accepting this lesser punishment and not risking trial. 

I’ve also wondered if he will really plead guilty, or if he will try to maintain his innocence even once convicted just to try to save face? 

[artdecades]

I will admit I’m behind in reading so I haven’t commented on the current discussion but i will say that being against sex work doesn’t mean you are against sex workers any more than being against child labor means you are against children. 

[Anna Bolinas]

2 minutes ago, justodd said:

Straight men (and yes, I am continuing to emphasize them as consumers because they’re the demographic most likely to pay) generally want female bodied people with breasts and vaginas, so yes, they’re going to seek out practitioners who meet that criteria.

 

But like do you think that happens in a vacuum? Why are straight men the ones who want to pay for sex with women so badly? Why do straight men feel entitled to have sex on demand? And this ties in to the whole "women are actually paid more for sex work, so that makes it empowering" because it's like--why do you think that's one of the few industries where women are prioritized over men? Could it be that women are sexualized and objectified in societies all over the world, and that women's bodies and sex appeal to men specifically are considered their most highly valued attributes? So the amount of women, and their average salary, in the sex industry is actually a sign of the pervasive misogyny in this world?

Also I know that the saying "the world's oldest profession" is very pithy and I know it's not meant to be taken completely seriously, but like. The world's oldest professions are probably things like farmers, toolmakers, midwives, and teachers. The phrase "world's oldest profession" as it relates to prostitution comes from a Rudyard Kipling short story about an Indian courtesan. But even if it were true, just because something's been around for awhile doesn't make it okay.

I wholeheartedly agree with @Foudeb: no one is entitled to sex. It is not a human right and a person will not die without it.

[gustava]

How much of a brand do the Duggers have left for JB to protect, at this point?

[Satan'sFortress]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

The lawyer's name is Justin Gelfand

https://margulisgelfand.com/team/justingelfand/

Representative Matters

Won complete acquittal in a Missouri sex crimes jury trial.

Won rare, post-indictment dismissal in a federal felony immigration fraud case in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri.

Won acquittal of all conspiracy and corporate tax evasion counts in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the District of Kansas spanning four weeks of government evidence and 117 government witnesses; the Government was represented by a team of three attorneys from the U.S. Attorney’s Office and the Department of Justice’s Tax Division.

Won acquittal of all of the most serious counts—those carrying mandatory minimums of decades in prison and maximums of life—in a federal sex trafficking jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri; in a pleading, the federal prosecutor claimed her star witness “was mercilessly questioned by defense counsel [Justin Gelfand].”

Won acquittal of all felony false tax return counts in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri on behalf of a Missouri accountant.

Won acquittal of felony tax evasion count in a federal criminal tax jury trial in the United States District Court for the Western District of Missouri on behalf of a Missouri business owner; sole count of conviction (26 U.S.C. 7212(a)) is currently on appeal.

Won a rare withdrawal of 17-year old guilty plea after a Missouri court found “manifest injustice” and ruled in Justin’s client’s favor.

Won a post-indictment dismissal on behalf of a Missouri landowner charged with crimes relating to his property.

Obtained a favorable settlement in a complicated civil litigation matter on behalf of a multinational company.

Persuaded the IRS not to prosecute a business owner under investigation for tax fraud.

Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a juvenile accused of a sex crime.

Persuaded Missouri prosecutors not to prosecute a man accused of a sex crime against a child.

Persuaded the U.S. Department of Justice not to prosecute a large business owner.

Persuaded the U.S. Department of Justice not to prosecute a small business owner.

Persuaded authorities not to prosecute a healthcare worker under investigation for child endangerment.

Client charged in both Missouri and Illinois with more than 10 fraud felonies carrying the possibility of life in prison; negotiated a resolution of probation with no criminal conviction.

Client charged in Missouri with six criminal tax felonies; negotiated a resolution of probation with no criminal conviction.

Client charged in what Justice Department called the “largest software piracy case ever prosecuted in U.S. history”; negotiated resolution of probation.

Client charged with eight federal felonies carrying a mandatory minimum of 8 years and a statutory maximum of 43 years in federal prison; negotiated a plea to one count carrying a 2-year sentence.

Represented numerous individuals and entities with previously undisclosed offshore bank accounts; all resolved favorably.

Represented numerous individuals and entities in serious civil and criminal matters resolved favorably and entirely out of court with no publicity.

Well, I kind of wish I hadn't read that. But I guess that it is good to know.

[Antimony]

I am literally so confused because I've yet to see anybody on this board who supports decriminalization and supports sex workers claim that sex work is inherently and always empowering (though some say it can be, for some SWers, sometimes), or claim that it's empowering because of pay rates (that just is an economic outlier compared to our other pay gaps! It's interesting! We could talk about why all day!) or claim that any person is entitled to have sex. Yet, these keep coming up as the counter argument but...I don't know any sex worker ally who thinks these things. 

But what they (we) have been saying is that sex work isn't going away (and we know criminalizing it doesn't make it go away), sex workers want decriminalization, and that if somebody chooses to engage in sex work, they deserve respect for their work and choice and protections (like, their job not being illegal! Health insurance!) so that they can safely do the work for however long they so choose. They don't deserve to be told to go get another job in IT, they don't deserve to be called mentally unstable, they don't deserve to be talked about as "sodomized". 

I cannot see how this is so complicated with the exception of maybe how well SWERFs have blended in with other feminists. I really don't get it. 

It is not "all sex work is good" or "all sex work is perfect" it is "any movement that doesn't center the safety and requests of sex workers, including their key platform of decriminalization, is not interested in helping these people as much as it is interested in being a savior or shaming them."

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, gustava said:

How much of a brand do the Duggers have left for JB to protect, at this point?

They were at a conference where they were booked to speak, presumably for money, if not money then it still shows there was a market for them in their culture up to them.

And even here you’d have people dying to watch a Jana wedding or such - TLC hadn’t dropped them so there are potential paydays down the road he’s hoping to salvage. 

[Satan'sFortress]

I keep thinking this in my head:

Spoiler

And I want the scene to cut to everyone, one at a time, and find out what each of them are thinking.

Which Duggar do you wish you could hear from most?

[Rachel333]

TMZ got a hold of some documents

Quote

According to legal docs, obtained by TMZ, the "19 Kids and Counting" star claims he should be let out of jail and released to his home so he can take care of his pregnant wife. 

Cause he's just a family man, you know. ?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Rachel333

[FiveAcres]

2 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I keep thinking this in my head:

  Reveal hidden contents

And I want the scene to cut to everyone, one at a time, and find out what each of them are thinking.

Which Duggar do you wish you could hear from most?

Since they have had almost no privacy from birth, I would prefer to leave them to the privacy of their thoughts. 

[Howl]

From Radar online: 

Josh Duggar Hires Lawyer Known For Fighting High-Profile Sex Crimes Cases, Formerly Worked As A Federal Prosecutor

This is terrible news.  As noted by @feministxtian upthread, they've hired an attorney with "a long history of successfully defending men accused of sex crimes."

Gelfand's billing will be astronomical. However, he's not licensed to practice in Arkansas, so will working with the two local Arkansas attorneys.  So three attorneys cranking out billable hours. 

I took a little trip to Reddit: 

• the Federal prosecutor is a bad ass woman
• as noted, Gelfand has a history of successful defense of those accused of sex crimes
• the trial date is likely to be changed several times
• yes, Gelfand will be hugely expensive, indicating JimBob is ready to fight for the brand

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Howl

[seraaa]

3 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

TMZ got a hold of some documents

Cause he's just a family man, you know. ?

Ok, fine, but this implies he an Anna will live apart from the children until the trial? Unless the directive not to be around minors excludes his own children.

[feministxtian]

this fucker is going to try to skate again...let's hope this damages the brand beyond repair. 

[seraaa]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

From Radar online: 

Josh Duggar Hires Lawyer Known For Fighting High-Profile Sex Crimes Cases, Formerly Worked As A Federal Prosecutor

As noted upthread,  this is terrible news.  As noted by @feministxtian upthread, they've hired an attorney with "a long history of successfully defending men accused of sex crimes."

Gelfand's billing will be astronomical. However, he's not licensed to practice in Arkansas, so will be hired in addition to the two local Arkansas attorneys.  So three attorneys cranking out billable hours. 

I took a little trip to Reddit: 

• the Federal prosecutor is a bad ass woman
• as noted, Gelfand has a history of successful defense of those accused of sex crimes
• the trial date is likely to be changed several times
• yes, Gelfand will be hugely expensive, indicating JimBob is ready to fight for the brand

 

They're really serious about fighting this, then. He'll have the best possible defence.

[Phyllis_Stein]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

From Radar online: 

Josh Duggar Hires Lawyer Known For Fighting High-Profile Sex Crimes Cases, Formerly Worked As A Federal Prosecutor

As noted upthread,  this is terrible news.  As noted by @feministxtian upthread, they've hired an attorney with "a long history of successfully defending men accused of sex crimes."

Gelfand's billing will be astronomical. However, he's not licensed to practice in Arkansas, so will be hired in addition to the two local Arkansas attorneys.  So three attorneys cranking out billable hours. 

I took a little trip to Reddit: 

• the Federal prosecutor is a bad ass woman
• as noted, Gelfand has a history of successful defense of those accused of sex crimes
• the trial date is likely to be changed several times
• yes, Gelfand will be hugely expensive, indicating JimBob is ready to fight for the brand

 

I guess it's ok to deal with Jewish people (Jewish lawyers, in this case) when you need to get out of a child sex abuse crime.