Maxwell 38: Forgotten Jesse and the Spinsters Have to Replace the Vests for the Wedding

[Bethy]

3 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

How are they so lucky to find houses so close to home? Do they sit around and wait for people to move?? 

That's exactly what they do. As soon as a man-boy has saved enough to buy a house in cash and one pops up in their neighborhood, it's a match! And it stands empty during everlasting "renovations" or, in the case of Jesse, is rented out, until a suitable woman is found.

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This brings up a question that comes to my mind from time to time - do the women in these cults realize they have legal rights outside of what they are allowed in their culture?

Some of them do, but they think it's unfortunate. I'm thinking of a long-gone blogger who had a blog called In Clothesline Alley probably 12-15 years ago...she was a militant long skirt wearer, as I remember, and had a daughter she referred to on the blog as "Peapod" and I think she may have also followed some Jewish law and worn a headscarf...anyway, I remember her blogging about having tripped over the cat and having to go to the ER for her sprained ankle, and how upset she was that they kept trying to get between her and her husband to ask if he'd hurt her. In this case, according to her account she'd legit tripped over the cat and her husband wasn't even at home, so it really was an accident, but she was angry that they were trying to give her a chance to say it wasn't.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

3 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

That brings up a memory from when my son was in 1st grade.  His classmates must have been talking about "when you turn 18, you have to move out on your own.". He told me he didn't ever want to move out.  I told him I'd never make him move out, but that he might feel differently when that time came.  

And yep, he moved out.  I missed him like crazy but he was spreading his wings and ready to leave the nest.  That's when I regretted having only one child, but by then it was waaay too late to do anything about that lol!

I made my 21 year old move out after a few yoyo experiences. She was going nowhere, doing nothing. She applied for a job I sent her "just to shut [me] up". Now she has a career she loves and apt she loves, financial independence and is going back to college. Sometimes the right thing is what seems harsh. Her brother got the same thing for waaaaaaaaaay different reasons. He is now back home because that is what HE needed. Now after a year he has a super job and all and is ready to fly.  I wish the Maxwell's and similar Safety Squirrel isolating families would see that it can work well.

[nokidsmom]

 

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This brings up a question that comes to my mind from time to time - do the women in these cults realize they have legal rights outside of what they are allowed in their culture?

Like does Anna realize she is legally allowed to make her own decisions regarding her medical care.  For others in a general sense, do the women realize they have as much legal right over the care of their children as their husbands (if they were to disagree with medical treatment, education, etc.)?

Also in addition to decisions around medical care and children, do they realize they have legal rights even before they are married?  I mean, for example, do SAHDs like Sarah Maxwell realize that they have the right to determine where they live, what they want to do, earn their own money, that sort of thing?   In short, they do not have to be dependent on Daddy, he is not their boss / ruler of their lives and that he has no legal authority over them whatsoever?  That at the point the connection is purely biological / emotional, that legally he has nothing over them?

I know it's a lot more complicated than that being that so many of them are too stunted educationally, socially and emotionally to break away but still they have the legal rights nonetheless.  

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by nokidsmom
Edited out double quote

[Jana814]

I only moved out of my parents house a few years ago & I’m almost 40. I wanted to be more financially stable and establish my business. If my business had been more stable 10 years ago then I would have moved out then. Even with this pandemic going on & my business pretty much non existent I’m able to support myself because I have a lot of money in savings. 
 

I don’t think any of the Maxwell sisters are going to get married. The brothers would loose their free nannies and the just can’t happen. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jana814

[IReallyAmHopewell]

29 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

 

Also in addition to decisions around medical care and children, do they realize they have legal rights even before they are married?  I mean, for example, do SAHDs like Sarah Maxwell realize that they have the right to determine where they live, what they want to do, earn their own money, that sort of thing?   In short, they do not have to be dependent on Daddy, he is not their boss / ruler of their lives and that he has no legal authority over them whatsoever?  That at the point the connection is purely biological / emotional, that legally he has nothing over them?

I know it's a lot more complicated than that being that so many of them are too stunted educationally, socially and emotionally to break away but still they have the legal rights nonetheless.  

 

I wonder if they have access to their birth certificate, social security number and driver's license. Do they drive? I have no idea. Are they paid for the work they do--someone recently did the shopping cart part of web site. Was she actually paid a fair wage for that, or given an allowance and the rest went into the bank of Mom & Dad?

[ignorantobserver]

12 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Also in addition to decisions around medical care and children, do they realize they have legal rights even before they are married?  I mean, for example, do SAHDs like Sarah Maxwell realize that they have the right to determine where they live, what they want to do, earn their own money, that sort of thing?   In short, they do not have to be dependent on Daddy, he is not their boss / ruler of their lives and that he has no legal authority over them whatsoever?  That at the point the connection is purely biological / emotional, that legally he has nothing over them?

This is a really interesting (and disturbing !) question. In the case of the Maxwells, I don't believe that the parents outright lie to their children about the law. Sure, you can imagine a family that is in complete lockdown and intentionally deceives their children about their rights. But some things are common knowledge to a point that there has to be no interaction with the outside world at all, ever, to keep children or young adults from learning about them : women wear pants, short hair, speak their mind in the presence of men, contradict them, teach them. She has to know this, if only because her father continuosly preaches against it and because it's immediately visible to anyone visiting an American city (outside of some Amish or Mennonite communities, I suppose ?). I can't see fundie parents lying about these things, at least not those who have a social media presence and thus interact with the outside world.

Other kinds of rights are not visible to an outsider, but they pretty much immediately come to light when teenagers and young adults talk about their lives, if only in a very superficial way. Sarah has to have learned that young, unmarried women live away from their parents, have bank accounts, earn their own money and live with their boyfriends. Depending on the people she interacted with, she probably heard information that allowed her to infere that these things can be done without parental consent. Hasn't Sarah been allowed to travel without a chaperone ? Maybe she refuses to talk to secular people, but she interacts with a variety of fundies : shouldn't she know about families who "shun" their adult children for misbehaviour ? In that case, she must have noticed that the parents don't call the police to bring back the fugitive, suggesting at the very least that the police wouldn't intervene in those cases. Bottom line : I can't see how Sarah Maxwell could not be aware that she has the possibility of leaving her family. She is far too "wordly" for this level of ignorance.

I am more concerned about questions that involve money, like child support, tuition costs or insurance. These issues are rarely brought up in casual conversation, making it more likely that parents could instill false ideas in their children without being immediately found out. They could use the "common sense" idea that the person who pays calls the shots to suggest that the person paying for health insurance / medical procedures has some kind of power over the treatment of family members or that parents can forbid their adult children from going to college. Frankly, a lot of parents use their financial power over their adult children to steer them towards certain college majors or blackmail them in case the child chooses to enroll in a faculty that is not to their liking, and quite a few young adults raised in perfectly secular societies are naive enough to let it happen. I am quite sure that parents could realistically convince their adult but financially dependent children that they have more rights over them than they actually do in financial matters, especially when the issues don't come up often in everyday life. Is Sarah Maxwell aware, for example, that she is allowed to sign a cellphone contract without her father's permission, even if she pays for it with "his" money ? To buy alcohol with the grocery budget ? To subscribe to an additional insurance for traveling, or to buy her own plane ticket ? To go to the doctor without her family learning about what was being discussed, or even learning about it at all ? I think it's a real possibility that she doesn't know these things, and that's really scary.

 

[CyborgKin]

On 5/27/2020 at 6:17 AM, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I'm very interested in seeing how Jesse and Anna Maxwell's wedding came together. I don't know if many people have read articles or seen news stories about couples who chose to go through with their weddings while following CDC outlines, like wearing face mask, social distancing, live streaming from inside the church, having the wedding outside, and/or having a car parade to honor the couple. Plus, Steve and Teri seemed to be taking the CDC guidelines more seriously than other fundies out there. I'm sure Sarah will delight us with many details about the day and how it all came together. 

Yeah I recently heard how actress Rachel Skarsten had a backyard pandemic wedding. https://etcanada.com/news/644668/rachel-skarsten-talks-getting-married-in-self-isolation-batwoman-season-finale/

Quote

I wasn’t one of those people who grew up planning their wedding. Really, I just wanted to marry my best friend. So I got to do that, I’m very happy!

Coming from her it truly sounded quite adorable.  But she's not the sort of person the Maxwells would have ever heard of.  (And she's definitely the best part of Batwoman.  Now there's a show I can imagine sending the Maxwells into seizures if they ever somehow accidentally saw it.)

[ignorantobserver]

32 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

I wonder if they have access to their birth certificate, social security number and driver's license. Do they drive? I have no idea. Are they paid for the work they do--someone recently did the shopping cart part of web site. Was she actually paid a fair wage for that, or given an allowance and the rest went into the bank of Mom & Dad?

Hasn't there been a "high-profile" legal case involving a young woman who left her parents' cult and whose parents subsequently refused to hand over her birth certificate and driver's license ? Was that Alicia Pennington ? And shouldn't everyone in these circles be aware of it ?

[nausicaa]

Just now, IReallyAmHopewell said:

I wonder if they have access to their birth certificate, social security number and driver's license. Do they drive? I have no idea. Are they paid for the work they do--someone recently did the shopping cart part of web site. Was she actually paid a fair wage for that, or given an allowance and the rest went into the bank of Mom & Dad?

We know Sarah drives, and I believe we have confirmed that Anna and Mary do as well. 

With how weird Steve and Teri are about monitoring everyone's Internet access, I wouldn't be surprised if they held onto their birth certificates too (or just never handed them out once they became adults since they all live together). 

[Giraffe]

I’m sure they know they have at least some rights, but they believe they’re their father’s property like their bronze age book tells them.
 

They probably have financial accounts for themselves but I’d bet my cat it’s a joint account with Steve and perhaps Teri. 
 

(I feel really bad betting my cat - he’s very sweet - but we’re never going to find out the truth so I’m going to keep it in my comment)

[daisyjane1234]

I'm fairly sure these women know about the rights women have outside of their cult.  However they have been told from before they could walk (think Anna Marie's kids protesting reproductive rights) that the rights bestowed by the secular world are "of man", and therefore are inherently sinful.  They create a dichotomy of God's laws and "man's laws". In order to retain their holy status they cling to their understanding (created) version of God's laws.  However since they don't engage in any kind of meaningful Biblical study, they fail to understand that their understanding of God's laws are also equally "man's laws", or when we're talking about the Maxwells, Steve's laws.

Edited May 27, 2020 by daisyjane1234

[Bethy]

1 hour ago, ignorantobserver said:

Hasn't there been a "high-profile" legal case involving a young woman who left her parents' cult and whose parents subsequently refused to hand over her birth certificate and driver's license ? Was that Alicia Pennington ? And shouldn't everyone in these circles be aware of it ?

I remember that case but I thought the issue wasn't so much that they weren't handing over the documents as that they didn't exist. Because if you homebirth and homeschool and homechurch and use essential oils and garlic to cure everything instead of going to doctors (because of course you also wouldn't vaccinate) and live far enough out in the boondocks that nobody asks questions, you can raise someone to adulthood who on paper doesn't exist. At least we know from the Moody books that they (the Maxes, I mean) get birth certificates, right?

[ElizaB]

16 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I remember that case but I thought the issue wasn't so much that they weren't handing over the documents as that they didn't exist. Because if you homebirth and homeschool and homechurch and use essential oils and garlic to cure everything instead of going to doctors (because of course you also wouldn't vaccinate) and live far enough out in the boondocks that nobody asks questions, you can raise someone to adulthood who on paper doesn't exist. At least we know from the Moody books that they (the Maxes, I mean) get birth certificates, right?

I think the Maxwell's are very by the book about certain things- birth certificates, voting (I mean they all do it- not who they vote for), vaccinations, drivers license, and things like that. 

[Caroline]

8 hours ago, Alisamer said:

 

I hope Sarah has managed to find ways out of doing most things she doesn't want to do... but I still feel annoyed with Steve and Teri on her behalf. 

There's nothing at all wrong with her preferring to not have kids, or stay single, or any of that. Or even staying "at home" if she chooses. But she didn't choose that! It was a default expectation - I'm positive she believes that literally the only way she could move out would be to get married. If she's happy, I'm glad, but honestly... she could do and be so much more. In a non-fundie household (or even some non-Maxwell fundie households) she could have attended college, taken classes outside college, had a job and contributed to the household as an adult, etc. Instead, she writes dad-approved books for the family business, helps with other family business, and does what she's told; all while adhering to the family schedule, having her internet usage carefully monitored, and being required to follow the family rules without question. 

I doubt Sarah truly has experienced enough of life to have any idea what she actually likes or enjoys. 

I wonder if she realizes that at all? Has she ever paused on a sidewalk listening to a pop song coming from someone's car radio, and thought "wow I like that!" Has she ever tried on jeans in a store, just to see if she likes them? Has she ever seen a shirt she really loved, but then didn't buy it because of the contrasting buttons... and had a fleeting thought about how ridiculous that really is?

The way they present Sarah, I feel pretty bad for her.

Of course, their blog is carefully curated, so who knows what reality is for them!

I had a roommate in graduate school who was pursuing a MA along with me.  When we completed our degrees I moved on to my first job and she stayed at the university and completed her Phd.   She had come from a very close-knit family and she had no interest in dating or getting married.  Her siblings  married and had kids.  When she finished her degree she returned to the home she'd grown up in, got a job , and still lives there now caring for her elderly parents.  The difference is that that is what she wanted to do.  She also wanted  to pursue an advanced degree and work, and she did those things too.  She was always dedicated to her parents, and had grown up with the example of her mother's parents living with them as she grew up.  She had choices and still continues to lead a life with friends and work she loves. She has a life that she was allowed to create.  Sarah - not so much.

[Bethella]

43 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I remember that case but I thought the issue wasn't so much that they weren't handing over the documents as that they didn't exist. Because if you homebirth and homeschool and homechurch and use essential oils and garlic to cure everything instead of going to doctors (because of course you also wouldn't vaccinate) and live far enough out in the boondocks that nobody asks questions, you can raise someone to adulthood who on paper doesn't exist. At least we know from the Moody books that they (the Maxes, I mean) get birth certificates, right?

Yeah, Alecia didn't have a birth certificate and her parents wouldn't give her an affidavit to get a delayed registration. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/12/how-a-teenagers-viral-campaign-to-prove-her-citizenship-is-inspiring-a-new-texas-bill/

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/08/31/heres-how-an-off-the-grid-homeschooled-christian-girl-escaped-her-parents-and-became-a-legal-human/

https://readingroom.law.gsu.edu/gsulr/vol34/iss3/7/

[Jana814]

53 minutes ago, Caroline said:

I had a roommate in graduate school who was pursuing a MA along with me.  When we completed our degrees I moved on to my first job and she stayed at the university and completed her Phd.   She had come from a very close-knit family and she had no interest in dating or getting married.  Her siblings  married and had kids.  When she finished her degree she returned to the home she'd grown up in, got a job , and still lives there now caring for her elderly parents.  The difference is that that is what she wanted to do.  She also wanted  to pursue an advanced degree and work, and she did those things too.  She was always dedicated to her parents, and had grown up with the example of her mother's parents living with them as she grew up.  She had choices and still continues to lead a life with friends and work she loves. She has a life that she was allowed to create.  Sarah - not so much.

Your roommate made the right choice for her. That’s the way it should be. That may not have been the choice someone else would make but it was her choice. Honestly I can see myself doing the same thing. I see nothing wrong with what she did. But like you said Sarah DOSEN’T have the choice.  

Edited May 28, 2020 by Jana814

[church_of_dog]

10 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

How are they so lucky to find houses so close to home? Do they sit around and wait for people to move?? 

This sounds like a plot point for the next Stephen King novel...

[PennySycamore]

I had a friend when I was at UGA who was getting her Master's in Social Work, IIRC.  Her dad expected her to move back home until she got married after she finished her degree.  That would not have been her choice.  

[MamaJunebug]

Talk of Sarah, et.al., being set free brought to mind last night’s episode of the History Channel program on Ulysses S. Grant. During the siege of Vicksburg, he agreed that surrendering Confederate soldiers could take their personal property with them, not to include slaves. 

Noble! But where did those individuals go?  Vicksburg residents were starving, the freed men would have to travel one direction or another to find food, shelter, their families. 

Same thing with liberated fundie daughters and sons (e.g., FLDS outcasts).  I guess then as now, there were sympathetic folks and resources, but daunting, still.  *ah-ha moment:* — but if course! Control freaks of any era count on that!  

[donnal]

Just now catching up on the Maxwells, so I'm a little late to the wedding convo.  Not loving the wedding dress, but I'm always happy when I don't see that awful line of demarcation indicating modesty alterations that pops up at fundie weddings every now and then (ala Michael and Erin Bates.  I know I've seen it on at least two other fundie brides outside of the Bates family though).  I'd rather have this homely/homemade looking gown than that nonsense.

Edited May 28, 2020 by donnal
I don't know why that showed up as a quote originally...

[ElizaB]

How is it this long since the wedding and there hasn't been another post about it?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 hours ago, nausicaa said:

We know Sarah drives, and I believe we have confirmed that Anna and Mary do as well. 

With how weird Steve and Teri are about monitoring everyone's Internet access, I wouldn't be surprised if they held onto their birth certificates too (or just never handed them out once they became adults since they all live together). 

Tbf I never handed my kids theirs either.  I keep them in the safe which they can all access, along with other important documents.  

 

[Alisamer]

12 hours ago, Bethy said:

I remember that case but I thought the issue wasn't so much that they weren't handing over the documents as that they didn't exist. Because if you homebirth and homeschool and homechurch and use essential oils and garlic to cure everything instead of going to doctors (because of course you also wouldn't vaccinate) and live far enough out in the boondocks that nobody asks questions, you can raise someone to adulthood who on paper doesn't exist. At least we know from the Moody books that they (the Maxes, I mean) get birth certificates, right?

Yeah I don't think birth certificates are a big deal if you have one in the first place. I have a vague idea where mine might be, but I know where (during non-pandemic times) I can run get a certified copy in less than 30 minutes - and I've only ever needed it once to get a passport. If the Maxwell girls have possession of their driver's licenses, they are in decent shape. Far better than the fundies who are never registered at all!

[pupper]

10 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

This sounds like a plot point for the next Stephen King novel...

Or do the people in nearby, desirable homes just mysteriously disappear? 

And then the Maxwells begin a meat pie making business...

Cue Stephen King, Dateline and Broadway music...

[fundiefan]

2 hours ago, ElizaB said:

How is it this long since the wedding and there hasn't been another post about it?

Absolutely nothing of interest happens in Maxhell outside babies being born & sons getting married. Since Jesse is the last wedding, they're milking it. The longer they wait, the more people will come to their website & they might end up "saved" seeing all the godly material instead of the wedding pictures they're looking for. 

Tactics. Chelsy will have a baby this summer, but no one else is pregnant. And, Chesly has her own blog and the Bontragers blog, so there isn't a Maxhell "corner" on that discussion or information.

There is absolutely nothing for them to share or be evasive about - since they post Anna's own writings from Washington, that isn't a "hook" for them either...they can't pretend to be private while giving every detail about the color of shoes while saying jack shit about anything that actually matters. Anna is saying what matters. 

So, here they sit, with Jesse's wedding their last semblance of relevance. It will be milked for weeks & weeks because unless lightening strikes, it's their last offspring wedding & the last information they can control. Because no one cares about polishing cabinets or a July family breakfast to give the nieces & "the girls" money for OCC. They're broken records and this - this wedding - is their last hoorah.