Maxwell 38: Forgotten Jesse and the Spinsters Have to Replace the Vests for the Wedding

[fundiefan]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

And yet he is 'training' the curiosity out of his barely year old son by impossing their control issues over his food.  

Seems like he's following Steve's path pretty closely.  

Well she isn't browsing anywhere fun as a report of all of their internet activty gets emailed to Teri each day.  Because that's normal.

We don't know but if she made a trade off of housework for less child care nothing wrong with that.  Dividing up the household chores based on who hates which task least is one of the upsides of living with other people.

I don't see John doing anything differently than his parents did, except adding what the Bontragers did. Maybe shaking things up a tiny bit here or there, but there is no indication they will raise their family any better than they were raised. Looking at Chelsy's last few blog posts, it's very clear they have control issues with Axton, especially his hands. Just look at how many pictures, and in how many differing situations, they are literally holding his hands immobile. It's not just food. They literally hold an infant back from movement. 

His birthday pictures. New pregnancy pictures. Online church pictures. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

And yet he is 'training' the curiosity out of his barely year old son by impossing their control issues over his food.  

Seems like he's following Steve's path pretty closely.  

My comment said nothing about John straying from the Maxwell child raising norm. Just that he was the outgoing and fun personality of the bunch while Jesse is the more reserved one. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

My comment said nothing about John straying from the Maxwell child raising norm. Just that he was the outgoing and fun personality of the bunch while Jesse is the more reserved one. 

I guess it's hard for me to see the fun in anyone who is training an infant.  

[dawbs]

17 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I guess it's hard for me to see the fun in anyone who is training an infant.  

Said before and I'll say again, I didn't let people give my kid excessive shit over her not eating food.  She knew her mind, she could out-wait all of us, and I unilaterally decreed that keeping her from being hangry and having her get enough calories was my goal, so, no, we were not playing the 'eat this or go hungry' type of games.
When she was diagnosed as on the spectrum at age 8, I refrained from doing the 'I told you so' dance to other adults in her life.  

But I'd be horrified if I'd tried for 8 years to force a kid w/ sensory issues to conform.  I screw up the parenting often enough, I can't imagine the hell she'd have had in a fundie household.

It applies outside of babyhood: fed is best

 

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm not speculating, just trying to remember...didn't Sarah have issues as a child, before Steve and Teri locked them down, with being anxious in social situations?  

Steve and Teri "locked down" when Sarah was little. She never went to a school, never went to after-school activities, etc. Not that she was anxious at social situations, but she wasn't trained in social life!

There is an old post about young Sarah crying when sleeping at a friend's house. But that reaction is very normal in children! It does not mean a child has any socialization problem. But of course over-controlling dad and depressed mom used her reaction to isolate her more. 

 

2 minutes ago, dawbs said:

Said before and I'll say again, I didn't let people give my kid excessive shit over her not eating food.  She knew her mind, she could out-wait all of us, and I unilaterally decreed that keeping her from being hangry and having her get enough calories was my goal, so, no, we were not playing the 'eat this or go hungry' type of games.
When she was diagnosed as on the spectrum at age 8, I refrained from doing the 'I told you so' dance to other adults in her life.  

But I'd be horrified if I'd tried for 8 years to force a kid w/ sensory issues to conform.  I screw up the parenting often enough, I can't imagine the hell she'd have had in a fundie household.

It applies outside of babyhood: fed is best

 

They train Axton not to touch his food. It implies that he was interested in touching (which would be good news for the majority of parents). The 1 year old baby was unhappy and worried when they put the smash cake in front of him. He obviously knew the consequences of touching, and didn't. Chelsy joked on how her training was working.

 

[usmcmom]

I think it’s interesting that people like the Maxwell family consider women to be “the weaker sex,” yet none of the Maxwell sons has been made to feel strong enough to leave Mommy and Daddy. Instead, they expect the very young women to leave everything familiar to live at the compound. Fundie wives are expected to be braver and stronger than their godly husbands. 
 

As much as we think some of the sons might be a little less rigid in their rules, it is telling to me that they all remain near their parents. They don’t seem to be independent enough to actually...you know...leave and cleave.  It’s a pretty week group of men. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, usmcmom said:

As much as we think some of the sons might be a little less rigid in their rules, it is telling to me that they all remain near their parents.

Is it possible they just really, really like Everybody Loves Raymond?

Kidding, I know they wouldn't watch the beast and besides....Teri can't cook.  Marie Barone she's not.

[Alisamer]

 

2 hours ago, ignorantobserver said:

I hope so much you are right and Sarah is basically doing what she wants in that house. Her parents have used her for child labor for years and prevented her from gaining any independence at all - they are morally responsible for feeding and housing her for the rest of her life. That's the downside of the "Victorian family"-fantasy : you always end up with females who don't get married and can't work to earn their keep due to ideology and lack of education, spending their life as a charity case for other family members (sometimes disguised as a "governess" or "piano teacher") while pursuing appropriate hobbies like painting or writing. I do believe that quite a few people would choose such a life for themselves if given the option. In Sarah's circles it certainly sounds like a better option than getting married ! I only feel sorry for her brothers who will have to pay for her parents' whimsy after their death.

I hope Sarah has managed to find ways out of doing most things she doesn't want to do... but I still feel annoyed with Steve and Teri on her behalf. 

There's nothing at all wrong with her preferring to not have kids, or stay single, or any of that. Or even staying "at home" if she chooses. But she didn't choose that! It was a default expectation - I'm positive she believes that literally the only way she could move out would be to get married. If she's happy, I'm glad, but honestly... she could do and be so much more. In a non-fundie household (or even some non-Maxwell fundie households) she could have attended college, taken classes outside college, had a job and contributed to the household as an adult, etc. Instead, she writes dad-approved books for the family business, helps with other family business, and does what she's told; all while adhering to the family schedule, having her internet usage carefully monitored, and being required to follow the family rules without question. 

I doubt Sarah truly has experienced enough of life to have any idea what she actually likes or enjoys. 

I wonder if she realizes that at all? Has she ever paused on a sidewalk listening to a pop song coming from someone's car radio, and thought "wow I like that!" Has she ever tried on jeans in a store, just to see if she likes them? Has she ever seen a shirt she really loved, but then didn't buy it because of the contrasting buttons... and had a fleeting thought about how ridiculous that really is?

The way they present Sarah, I feel pretty bad for her.

Of course, their blog is carefully curated, so who knows what reality is for them!

[fundiefan]

8 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

I think it’s interesting that people like the Maxwell family consider women to be “the weaker sex,” yet none of the Maxwell sons has been made to feel strong enough to leave Mommy and Daddy. Instead, they expect the very young women to leave everything familiar to live at the compound. Fundie wives are expected to be braver and stronger than their godly husbands. 
 

As much as we think some of the sons might be a little less rigid in their rules, it is telling to me that they all remain near their parents. They don’t seem to be independent enough to actually...you know...leave and cleave.  It’s a pretty week group of men. 

This. I have thought this for so long it's so nice to see someone else say the same thing. 

If they were raised to be strong, independent men, why did they buy homes less than a mile from daddy? Surely they didn't decide "Hey, I want to live right next to my dad..." since every single one of them did it. It wasn't a choice, it was a directive. Even if they think it was a choice, it was the result of a complete mind-fuck from their parents. What are the chances five grown men from the same family would make the exact same choice about their own families? Zero individuality, zero critical thought, zero independence. 

I wouldn't go near a man so entrenched into his father's world that he can't buy a house in another town or even 5 miles from his parents. 

Just as they all claim they "chose" to stay in their father's home after they became "wage earning adults" so they could buy their home debt free. They didn't have a choice in the matter at all. They were all programmed. 

Plus, they knew if they left, they'd be cut off. If I remember correctly, it was described as that; they would not be part of the family if they left. So, sure, they had a "choice". 

Steve & Teri managed to produce five very weak, simple minded man-boys who do exactly as their told while believing they're making choices. It's all pretty sad. And, disgusting. 

[hollyandivy]

On 5/26/2020 at 10:45 AM, SassyPants said:

I’m thinking he went to the wedding because of his big brood of kids. The people who help him care for the kids needed to be at the wedding, and it would have been a lot to ask them to transport his 5 kids to and fro and deal with them alone, as their son and brother was tying the knot. Were the girls in the wedding party, as that would have complicated the situation even more. I think he chose the least caustic option. He’s in a horrible, rock and hard spot situation. Anna Marie is in a tougher one. I’m guessing religion, scripture and prayer is a good thing for them right now.

I don't think so, Christopher photographed another fundie wedding during corona. I truly think he doesn't care that much. He should have just stayed away. it would have been safer for Anna. 

[SassyPants]

40 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

I think it’s interesting that people like the Maxwell family consider women to be “the weaker sex,” yet none of the Maxwell sons has been made to feel strong enough to leave Mommy and Daddy. Instead, they expect the very young women to leave everything familiar to live at the compound. Fundie wives are expected to be braver and stronger than their godly husbands. 
 

As much as we think some of the sons might be a little less rigid in their rules, it is telling to me that they all remain near their parents. They don’t seem to be independent enough to actually...you know...leave and cleave.  It’s a pretty week group of men. 

And they ALL rely on their younger sisters to meet childcare needs!

[EmmieJ]

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I love my teenager, but if she ever told me she didn't have the desire to ever move out, I'd have to say, "Well honey, that's just how all of this goes."

That brings up a memory from when my son was in 1st grade.  His classmates must have been talking about "when you turn 18, you have to move out on your own.". He told me he didn't ever want to move out.  I told him I'd never make him move out, but that he might feel differently when that time came.  

And yep, he moved out.  I missed him like crazy but he was spreading his wings and ready to leave the nest.  That's when I regretted having only one child, but by then it was waaay too late to do anything about that lol!

[usmcmom]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

And they ALL rely on their younger sisters to meet childcare needs!

And I think this is one of the reasons the daughters will not get married. The family can’t deprive the daughters-in-law of their free childcare. 

[ignorantobserver]

Just now, Alisamer said:

I hope Sarah has managed to find ways out of doing most things she doesn't want to do... but I still feel annoyed with Steve and Teri on her behalf. 

There's nothing at all wrong with her preferring to not have kids, or stay single, or any of that. Or even staying "at home" if she chooses. But she didn't choose that! It was a default expectation - I'm positive she believes that literally the only way she could move out would be to get married. If she's happy, I'm glad, but honestly... she could do and be so much more. In a non-fundie household (or even some non-Maxwell fundie households) she could have attended college, taken classes outside college, had a job and contributed to the household as an adult, etc. Instead, she writes dad-approved books for the family business, helps with other family business, and does what she's told; all while adhering to the family schedule, having her internet usage carefully monitored, and being required to follow the family rules without question. 

I agree that she has been terribly abused and stunted, that's why I said her parents should care for her forever if she so wishes. Being the dependent, poor relative in the house is not presented as enviable in nineteenth-century novels, it was a precarious and helpless status with next to no protection against exploitation, abuse or just plain being thrown out of the house, not to mention the risk of seeing all richer relatives die before the "maiden aunt", leaving her to the mercy of strangers.

But I am also convinced that, realistically, being a coddled SAHD with the option of feeling indisposed and retiring to her chambers whenever she wishes - without having to worry about anything money-related - is one of Sarah's best options. She is 37. She has no education past middle school level (if she has that...), no employable skills whatsoever, no social network (if she decides to leave the cult). If she tried to leave, she would have to fight to get into some kind of school, then live in poverty for years trying to complete her education, while knowing that she would have no chance of succeeding in a competitive career (all the jobs related to writing or publishing are competitive). For every single job, she would have to compete with 37-year-olds who already have twenty years of working experience plus their diploma. Some artisans are quite sought after and decently paid, kindergarten teachers and nurses are lacking, but she doesn't strike me as the type who likes "blue-" or "pink-collar"-work. I think her options are 1) either to get out of the cult, be poor and isolated for years while trying to get over all the brainwashing and finally settle for a job she hates, 2) get under the authority of a Quiverfull patriarch, basically hell on earth, 3) get married to a "secular" man with a good job and be completely dependent on his income (one look at the divorce rates should take care of that idea), 4) stay under the authority of Steve while using all the leverage her role as 'first daughter' has allowed her to acquire to get him to pay for her hobbies. At least daddy's commitment is absolutely reliable, and she has a larger family net as a fallback option should he die.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

And I think this is one of the reasons the daughters will not get married. The family can’t deprive the daughters-in-law of their free childcare. 

Not to have a war of religious breeding, but much of my extended family had families of 6-7 kids and no one had sisterwives to help.  That wasn't out of the norm for Catholic families back in the day and you were expected to raise your own kids.

Perhaps if the Maxwell's sent their children to school they'd be able to parent without their unpaid au pairs.

[Tangy Bee]

How are they so lucky to find houses so close to home? Do they sit around and wait for people to move?? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

But I am also convinced that, realistically, being a coddled SAHD with the option of feeling indisposed and retiring to her chambers whenever she wishes - without having to worry about anything money-related - is one of Sarah's best options.

I know there is no other connection, but when I read this I thought immediately of Lizzie Bordon!

3 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

How are they so lucky to find houses so close to home? Do they sit around and wait for people to move?? 

If Steve were creeping at you when you use your own pool in a ::gasp:: swimsuit wouldn't you want to move?

 

[usmcmom]

1 hour ago, fundiefan said:

Steve & Teri managed to produce five very weak, simple minded man-boys who do exactly as their told while believing they're making choices. It's all pretty sad. And, disgusting. 

This is why I tend to believe Anna’s cancer treatments were not based on anything she might have wanted. I think she looked to Christopher to make the decisions and he looked to Steve. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

This is why I tend to believe Anna’s cancer treatments were not based on anything she might have wanted. I think she looked to Christopher to make the decisions and he looked to Steve. 

If a fight for your life to stick around for your 6 kids isn't a catalyst to at least attempt critical thinking then what is?  She may well not have it in her.

As long as there is life there is hope that one can grow and change, but if she is blindly following now then it goes to show how deep the damage of brainwashing can be.

Were it me I'd be scared to death, doing my own research, and getting input from professionals and those I love and trust.

However she arrived at her treatment, I hope it's the right one for her and she beats this thing.  

 

 

[Jana814]

10 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

This is why I tend to believe Anna’s cancer treatments were not based on anything she might have wanted. I think she looked to Christopher to make the decisions and he looked to Steve. 

So much this!  She can’t or won’t make any decision without talking to Christopher.  She might have wanted to do a different kind of treatment but Christopher (and Steve) won’t allow her. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

So much this!  She can’t or won’t make any decision without talking to Christopher.  She might have wanted to do a different kind of treatment but Christopher (and Steve) won’t allow her. 

This brings up a question that comes to my mind from time to time - do the women in these cults realize they have legal rights outside of what they are allowed in their culture?

Like does Anna realize she is legally allowed to make her own decisions regarding her medical care.  For others in a general sense, do the women realize they have as much legal right over the care of their children as their husbands (if they were to disagree with medical treatment, education, etc.)?

I guess I wonder if they are so accustomed to their patriarical relationships if they realize both parents are equal under the law?

[ignorantobserver]

26 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This brings up a question that comes to my mind from time to time - do the women in these cults realize they have legal rights outside of what they are allowed in their culture?

Like does Anna realize she is legally allowed to make her own decisions regarding her medical care.  For others in a general sense, do the women realize they have as much legal right over the care of their children as their husbands (if they were to disagree with medical treatment, education, etc.)?

I guess I wonder if they are so accustomed to their patriarical relationships if they realize both parents are equal under the law?

You are scaring me. I always assumed they knew, at least in broad strokes. They have to know that women vote, go to college, have their own bank accounts, work... if they had no idea, they couldn't publicly preach against it. I was even under the impression that they get taught a distorted version of "secular" women's rights : that women can get a divorce and take all their husband's money as well as the children, that they can falsely accuse men of rape and get away with it while the man gets locked away, that they spend their time murdering babies because they think it's fun... or am I confusing fundie-culture with MGTOW-culture ?

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Not to have a war of religious breeding, but much of my extended family had families of 6-7 kids and no one had sisterwives to help.  That wasn't out of the norm for Catholic families back in the day and you were expected to raise your own kids.

Perhaps if the Maxwell's sent their children to school they'd be able to parent without their unpaid au pairs.

I don't think it's related to religion. Basically, if parents have unpaid sitters, eventually will use them. If parents are alone, they will manage everything themselves.

I raised my eldest with no help and I was fine. But when I had my youngest, I was living in the same neighborhood than my parents-in-law. They were willing to help and I got used to that help. Of course I could raise the kid without them, but my life is much easier now. No problem if the kid is sick, or if I have a medical appointment or a meeting. It's a luxury to have them!

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

am I confusing fundie-culture with MGTOW-culture ?

There is quite a bit of overlap on that Venn diagram.

[Paperplate]

I wonder how the family dynamics would change if any of the girls were actually to marry.

Now it seems like Sarah does her own thing a lot (sitting alone and writing), while Anna and Mary are the more active and involved sisters who initiate activities, but who do *everything* together (except balloons!). If either Anna or Mary marry (and move away), I'd image the other one to become quite lonely. Sure, there are other family members around but that's no substitute for a sister & best (read: only) friend.

If (and as we know, that's a BIG if) Sarah was to marry, I think it would leave quite a gap in the Max house. Not the household itself (it doesn't seem like Sarah does much there) but on their blog and in their family.