Erin & Chad 6: Angling for a Vow Renewal Ceremony

[Lgirlrocks]

8 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

My parents would have put education first too. If the house needed to be cleaned and other things needed to be done. Well, they would have done that too. If it meant moving spending time together to after the kids were asleep or skip it. Well, then that's what they did. They tried to get all the cleaning, errands and other stuff done early on weekends so they could watch football game together or hang out. But it didn't always work out. Kids get sick, homework, school projects, my brother's baseball games, my art classes and helping out relatives. They found time when they could and when they coudn't it was okay. They were adults who lived in the real world. Erin doesn't really. Not only is education not a priority, but working at the boutique is something you'd think would be one too. Work is suppose to be priority. It always was for my parents you know keeping a roof over our heads was pretty important. Plus they wanted to save up money for vacations and things to do with their kids. All three things on her lists are ridicuolous. And those are her priorites every day? Spending time with Jesus. Doing what? Reading the Bible? Why can't she do that later? Same with Chad and her kids relationship with Jesus which apparently is a separate thing from her spending time with Jesus? Why can't she combine the first and third together and for a time when the other stuff is done? Why aren't her kids a priority? My parents were busy and yet somehow they managed to find time to make sure my brother and I knew about God and Jesus. My brother and sister-in-law are managing to do the same too.

What I don’t understand is most adults can’t grasp and understand religion so how do they expect kids to? My parents always led by example. A five year old saying they have a relationship with Jesus is very questionable. 

[nokidsmom]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

My grand-aunt was a Catholic nun. When she was young she had to pray for hours daily. But when she got older, she was said that thinking about Jesus while working or doing a hobbie or helping somebody or whatever, was like praying. She felt better then... and got more free time!

When I attended an evangelical college I puzzled over why thinking about Jesus or God or some theological issue didn't qualify as praying or getting some sort of biblical insight.  Why did it have to be praying or reading the Bible?  The college required all students to take religion classes.  Did the Bible reading in most of those classes count?   Or the class discussions?  How about seeing Bible verses written all over the place and thinking about them?  Or hearing your classmates constantly talk about God, Jesus, or the Bible and thinking about that?   How about the many chapels and convocations going on? 

3 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

As an ex-evangelical I remember how heavy and cumbersome, daily Bible reading could be given, both the quantity and the fact that you were always supposed to have some "revelation" while reading it. I roll my eyeballs at Evangelicals who label Catholics "legalistic" when so many of them struggle in their daily Bible reading. 

Also at same college I ran into a lot of students who talked about their daily Bible reading and what they were supposed to get out of it.  Some got a bit distressed that they didn't do it or didn't get some immediate insight from the daily reading. And that the correct answer to "what is your favorite book?" was "the Bible".   Saying anything else got raised eyebrows even if the book was a great piece of literature.

I honestly think that some of the students who didn't get around to their Bible reading were burned out because there was Bible stuff everywhere.

[front hugs > duggs]

Okay y'all. I have a question that may be controversial. It was obvious to us kids that when my parents were still married, they were not in love. I didn't grow up in a house full of fighting, cuz I don't think they cared enough to fight. We would do things with my dad. OR we would do things with my mom. Never as a family, unless it was a birthday. Then they got divorced.

I grew up hearing from my dad (even during my parents marriage) how my brother and I were the most important people to him ever, that nobody could top that. I thought this was a normal thing for parents to feel, just because I had no other experience obviously. Meanwhile, one of my closest friends made a comment one time about how in her family, her parents have each others backs before their kids'. The idea being that your kids will grow up and leave home and you have to have a solid foundation of a marriage to make a "happy family". 

I'm no black and white thinker, I  understand there is likely a middle ground. But as I'm going to be entering the parenting stage hopefully sooner than later, I often think about how I have ZERO examples of a happy and/or successful marriage in my life, and boundaries were something I learned through therapy as an adult. 

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children.

[Nothing if not critical]

19 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Okay y'all. I have a question that may be controversial. It was obvious to us kids that when my parents were still married, they were not in love. I didn't grow up in a house full of fighting, cuz I don't think they cared enough to fight. We would do things with my dad. OR we would do things with my mom. Never as a family, unless it was a birthday. Then they got divorced.

I grew up hearing from my dad (even during my parents marriage) how my brother and I were the most important people to him ever, that nobody could top that. I thought this was a normal thing for parents to feel, just because I had no other experience obviously. Meanwhile, one of my closest friends made a comment one time about how in her family, her parents have each others backs before their kids'. The idea being that your kids will grow up and leave home and you have to have a solid foundation of a marriage to make a "happy family". 

I'm no black and white thinker, I  understand there is likely a middle ground. But as I'm going to be entering the parenting stage hopefully sooner than later, I often think about how I have ZERO examples of a happy and/or successful marriage in my life, and boundaries were something I learned through therapy as an adult. 

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children.

I guess the easy answer to this would be that it's normal to have to balance everyone's needs in a family, and that everyone has to learn they have to respect each other's boundaries. 

That said... I am definitely not comfortable with the fundie ideal of always putting your spouse first, at least as long as the kids are small. Very young kids need their parents' full attention, and often it can't wait. I've always tended to assume that my partner is an adult and can be expected to put his own needs aside for the good of his kids, same as I do. And since having small kids is a temporary thing for most of us, I don't think that's such a huge sacrifice. Especially since having kids was a conscious choice on our part. 
On the other hand I've seen marriages where one partner always puts the kids first and genuinely neglects the other one, and that's definitely not healthy either.

It can be a juggling act sometimes, but I guess that's just life?  In any case, I feel there are no hard and fast rules. You try to figure out whose need is greater at any given moment and then decide accordingly.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Nothing if not critical

[JanasTattooParlor]

22 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Okay y'all. I have a question that may be controversial. It was obvious to us kids that when my parents were still married, they were not in love. I didn't grow up in a house full of fighting, cuz I don't think they cared enough to fight. We would do things with my dad. OR we would do things with my mom. Never as a family, unless it was a birthday. Then they got divorced.

I grew up hearing from my dad (even during my parents marriage) how my brother and I were the most important people to him ever, that nobody could top that. I thought this was a normal thing for parents to feel, just because I had no other experience obviously. Meanwhile, one of my closest friends made a comment one time about how in her family, her parents have each others backs before their kids'. The idea being that your kids will grow up and leave home and you have to have a solid foundation of a marriage to make a "happy family". 

I'm no black and white thinker, I  understand there is likely a middle ground. But as I'm going to be entering the parenting stage hopefully sooner than later, I often think about how I have ZERO examples of a happy and/or successful marriage in my life, and boundaries were something I learned through therapy as an adult. 

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children.

My experience is very similar to yours except I dealt with divorce a couple times. My parents only got married because my mom was pregnant with me and divorced six years later after having my brother. We loved with my mom and my dad didn’t care to be with us until he got a girlfriend who he later married. They got custody of my brother and I and it was never a happy household. My dad is a narcissist and my stepmom is controlling and doesn’t think she does anything wrong. I got out as soon as I could and my now husband taught me boundaries. My dad and stepmom are now in the middle of divorcing and it’s 100% the best thing for them, and I am having to enforce boundaries that they don’t like. My dad and I have no relationship and my stepmom expects me to be close with her like she is with her mom and I can’t because she lectures me, thinks I lie to her, and tells me I’m selfish and ungrateful when I do see her. I also have no positive relationship role models as my husband's family was also a very loveless home. I go off of the marriages of friends who had positive role models for how to keep a marriage happy and I would definitely say that I would put my husband first because kids or no kids, he’s my teammate who I’ll be with after the kids leave if we have any. I definitely would put my kids second though after him. I feel like during the younger years the kids come first but that you still need to be mindful of your spouses needs so that if they’re overwhelmed or struggling, then that’s something you need to work through together. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by JanasTattooParlor

[theotherelise]

Like most things in life, I don't find the reality of it to be easily summed up in a to-do list. At times when we faced difficult phases in our marriage (unemployment, paying off debt, infertility, IVF, having a baby during a pandemic), it was really important to make sure the hard things weren't the only thing we talked about or focused on. 

In practical application, that means my husband and I talk about our shared interests and not just our kiddo. We enjoy little treats together like getting a fancy chocolate bar to enjoy with 90 day fiance after the baby goes to sleep. We try to make time for physical intimacy, hugging, and noticing each other that way. One day we each took a half day off of work but had baby go a full day at day care so that we could go pick up some food and go on a drive and picnic date. 

Especially during the pandemic when we don't really see anyone else and haven't been on a date in 9 months while caring for an 8 month old, I do think prioritizing our relationship is important. But I don't think you have to compromise on prioritizing your time or attention with the kiddo. It's the extra phone scrolling and tv watching that can get cut! Keeping everything perfectly clean can wait. Going to take fancy photos and coming up with social media posts can be eliminated completely. 

It's just a bit silly to act like there is one static order to taking care of important things in life. If the baby has a blowout, that shoots up to the top of the list! If we get a weird bill that doesn't make sense from the doctor, that has to be dealt with. And of course, one huge way I protect my relationship with my spouse is by NOT HAVING AS MANY KIDS AS GOD THINKS WE CAN HANDLE. 

[Lgirlrocks]

My dad always said it went: God, Spouse, Kids, everyone else. But when your kids can’t take care of themselves you have to put them first. 

[EmiSue]

3 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Okay y'all. I have a question that may be controversial. It was obvious to us kids that when my parents were still married, they were not in love. I didn't grow up in a house full of fighting, cuz I don't think they cared enough to fight. We would do things with my dad. OR we would do things with my mom. Never as a family, unless it was a birthday. Then they got divorced.

I grew up hearing from my dad (even during my parents marriage) how my brother and I were the most important people to him ever, that nobody could top that. I thought this was a normal thing for parents to feel, just because I had no other experience obviously. Meanwhile, one of my closest friends made a comment one time about how in her family, her parents have each others backs before their kids'. The idea being that your kids will grow up and leave home and you have to have a solid foundation of a marriage to make a "happy family". 

I'm no black and white thinker, I  understand there is likely a middle ground. But as I'm going to be entering the parenting stage hopefully sooner than later, I often think about how I have ZERO examples of a happy and/or successful marriage in my life, and boundaries were something I learned through therapy as an adult. 

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children.

OMG, are you me? I guess in my imperfect-but-in-love marriage, we put each other first by sharing responsibility for our son and checking in with each other. I disagree with the fundie hierarchy and I don't. I feel like it's too intertwined when kids are little. 

[mstee]

5 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Okay y'all. I have a question that may be controversial. It was obvious to us kids that when my parents were still married, they were not in love. I didn't grow up in a house full of fighting, cuz I don't think they cared enough to fight. We would do things with my dad. OR we would do things with my mom. Never as a family, unless it was a birthday. Then they got divorced.

I grew up hearing from my dad (even during my parents marriage) how my brother and I were the most important people to him ever, that nobody could top that. I thought this was a normal thing for parents to feel, just because I had no other experience obviously. Meanwhile, one of my closest friends made a comment one time about how in her family, her parents have each others backs before their kids'. The idea being that your kids will grow up and leave home and you have to have a solid foundation of a marriage to make a "happy family". 

I'm no black and white thinker, I  understand there is likely a middle ground. But as I'm going to be entering the parenting stage hopefully sooner than later, I often think about how I have ZERO examples of a happy and/or successful marriage in my life, and boundaries were something I learned through therapy as an adult. 

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children.

Warning: I ramble ? 

This is something I’ve thought about before as well even though I grew up with parents who had a healthy marriage. I remember asking my mom as a kid if she loved me more than my dad and she said it was a different kind of love, not more or less. Decent answer. I happened to bring it up as an adult and my mom laughed and said “of course I love you more but I couldn’t let you know!” I have a friend right now who has a 12 year old and has been dating a guy for a year and the girl has been struggling with the same question and my friend has told her that spouse comes first stuff. In that situation I would completely disagree. This a boyfriend of a year. Nope. 
I don’t think that putting your spouse above your child is necessary for a healthy marriage. There are times to be a united front and times where you will disagree with your spouse and I think it’s totally okay for your child to know that! Or things can be discussed ahead of time  with your spouse and can be presented like “dad thinks xyz, I think xyz, what do you think?” This may sound crazy but as an example: if I found out my husband was a serial killer I would lose my love for him. On the other hand, I would still love my child. Be totally disgusted but still love them. Your child has your whole heart. It’s a crazy kind of love. I know people think that allowing your child to know that spouses disagree gives them some advantage to manipulate the parents but I would disagree. I think it shows that all relationships take work and disagreements occur and it’s ok. That’s my definition of a solid foundation.  I don’t think enough people put their kids above their relationships (ex: all the women or men who stay with spouses who are abusive towards the children) and I think that’s why that mentality can be dangerous. You can still have a wonderful and happy marriage and take time for date nights etc while making sure your child’s needs come first. 

[Melissa1977]

11 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I notice how Erin puts Chad above her children on that list. I guess I'm curious to hear your experiences. I can't imagine being in a position (where you are in a healthy marriage, of course) where you'd potentially have to make a choice between your partner and your children

It's not about choices. I have a healthy, lovely marriage, but my children will always be on top of any other person, including my husband. It does not mean I love my husband less, I love him differently, because they are different relationships. But for me, no love  can be compared to the love I feel for my children.

Anyway, while I think couples should have time for themselves and work on their relationship, the fundie obsession of daily childfree time only shows how spoiled they are. Children are never a priority.for them. Normal people know that not everyday there's time for the relationship and guess what? Adult, healthy marriages can work and grow without constant Bible time and childfree diners. 

[fundiesarefascinating]

Just my 2 cents, but I speculate with some of this has to do with the lack of exposure and experience of different kinds of love. How I love my spouse vs children vs friends, vs parents vs siblings is all very different. And because these different types of love come from different parts of me/are made up of a variety of types of love it always feels like there is enough to give. 

The singular template for love (which I think is very transactional) in all relationships would be exhausting and you would have to prioritize and develop a hierarchy. And I think purity culture plays a huge role in laying down this transactional, pseudo-romantic, emotional co-dependant relationship between children and parents reinforces that there is one type of love and there is never enough of it to go around. 

[Nothing if not critical]

7 hours ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

The singular template for love (which I think is very transactional) in all relationships would be exhausting and you would have to prioritize and develop a hierarchy.

So much this. There's such a huge tendency among fundies to reduce relationships to a few simple rules: do this, avoid that, stick to a list of recommendations, and you'll automatically be happy. And if you aren't, then you better pretend to be, or something must be wrong with you.

They seem unable to deal with the messy complexity of real life and real human emotions and instead want a list of items to tick off. It's quite sad, really.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Nothing if not critical

[lumpentheologie]

This makes me so sad for Erin's kids. And it really brings home how much of a cult this is. No normal person would think their own spiritual practice, daily child-free time with their partner, and teaching their kids about their religion would come before making sure those small children are safe, fed, and clothed. And once that is done bonding with your little kids and helping them develop (including education) should come second. As far as I'm concerned this is tantamount to admitting neglect. She probably blanket trains them into submission and then doesn't pay any attention to them unless it's to take pictures for social media. It's so dark. 

[feministxtian]

I had one hell of a juggling act for years...there were the kids, the overbearing mother who I ended up taking care of, a crazy career, a husband who developed health problems...and me. I specialized in crisis management. It literally was years before I put myself first...and that lasted just long enough for Mr. Xtian to get sick again. Now, yes, I'm first, right behind my 4 legged kids. Get up in the morning, put the coffee on, feed/water the beasts, let Sadie outside...Sadie going out is usually first...she's a good puppy and sleeps all night but man, that door to outside better be open within minutes of her getting up. 

Today is trying to pull this place together...hahahahahaha...and my support group Christmas party tonight. Tomorrow, hopefully finish this place and relax. Thursday is Xmas eve with the fam and Xmas day I may end up at my daughter's house...who the hell knows. 

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

This makes me so sad for Erin's kids. And it really brings home how much of a cult this is. No normal person would think their own spiritual practice, daily child-free time with their partner, and teaching their kids about their religion would come before making sure those small children are safe, fed, and clothed. And once that is done bonding with your little kids and helping them develop (including education) should come second. As far as I'm concerned this is tantamount to admitting neglect. She probably blanket trains them into submission and then doesn't pay any attention to them unless it's to take pictures for social media. It's so dark. 

I'm sure the kids are fed and clothed and the reason Erin does not list it is because it's the basic and in no way she could forgot to feed them. She's not Jill Rodrigues! But children need more than food and a bath and Erin does not give them attention and I agree with you that she's suspictious of training the children. Those women are copying Kelly, but could do better, because they have still a manageable number of children and a lot more information.

[rebeccawriter01]

I've said this of all of the girls and guys in the Bates family, but Erin truly had no close relationships to emulate or aspire to within her family. There were her parents and grandparents. But those were well established relationships with children and grown children/grandchildren. She watched no movies or television to hear them tell it. From what I have heard of people who knew them prior to the shows, the family saw people in church on Sunday but that was about it. It was isolated and rare (ATI in Big Sandy or the occasional Gothard sponsored event). 

Her early married days showed a very immature girl who was probably very insecure and unsure even how to act with her husband. I'm sure the early infertility struggles didn't help, as Zach/Whitney and Alyssa/John got pregnant and had babies right away. Who knows what Kelly Jo or others told her privately, but I'm doubting it was all that helpful or encouraging given their views. 

Those early couch interviews with Chad and Erin were particularly painful. They honestly didn't know each other at all. I sometimes wonder how she managed to get pregnant given that they seemed to jump if one touched the other. At one point she seemed spunky and outspoken for an IBLP follower. However she flipped that switch and went into learn to cook and learn to love babies mode (a change based on what Zach and others have said about her never holding the siblings when they were babies and never cooking). 

I think her priority check list is pretty much an example of a woman who is still trying to figure her life out in a lot of ways. It also speaks to evidence that IBLP way of life doesn't seem to prepare these girls for the life they will actually have to live. Yes, they sing songs about being happy while doing housework but they aren't teaching them anything usable. 

Erin seems to be slipping into that Michelle Duggar mode of craving the attention that pregnancy and birth bring her without really focusing on those every day motherhood aspects. I often say Carlin is the biggest attention seeker, but Erin is up there too. When pregnant, Erin gets the princess treatment that she once got as the pianist and special one at home. She wants to build stadiums to have her family there while she gives birth. Most of us crave attention or the spotlight, but these Bates daughters really seem to thrive only when they have their moment. It would probably help if their mother and father paid attention to them at any time that didn't include engagement, weddings, pregnancy announcements or births. 

I certainly hope that Erin can provide a healthy relationship with her children that makes them feel valued no matter their life path. 

[zcccrv]

My husband and I have a really intense 14 month old daugher who only wants to sleep in my arms, so you could say she is literally a handful. Zero outside help during lockdown and she is definately my top priority right now. Our alone time boils down to 15minutes, half hour if we're lucky- every day or two. It's when she watches her morning cartoons and is in a good mood (which never lasts, yeah she is one demanding kid). I would say that through this, our relationship is still very strong. It did take BIG adjusting ever since she was born but I guess that's what you do- you adjust if the relationship is strong enough. You change.

[feministxtian]

The chaperoned courtships and short engagements don't lead to people really getting to know each other. I'm glad I lived with Mr. Xtian for a year before we got married. I knew him a lot better then...and was able to decide whether or not I could live with his quirks, weirdness, perfectionism and general goofiness, and he with me. These couples barely know each other and are likely the first and only relationship they will have. Neither one gets to kiss their share of frogs first. If I had a nickel for every frog I kissed, I'd be loaded! Thing is, it took time and maturity to decide what I really wanted in a partner. If I had married my first ever boyfriend...well...life would be way different. Instead I had time to grow, experience shitty relationships and learn. 

I really feel sorry for these girls. They're not grown up or mature enough to really know what they want. Many of the couples stay stuck in the fundie rut and never grow beyond their black and white world. 

[raayx01]

Zach and Whitney and John and Alyssa had short relationships, but I'm pretty sure Erin and Chad and Brandon and Michaela Were together for 2 years before getting engaged

[GuineaPigCourtship]

My parents made sure we knew they always came first with each other. I never felt like they weren't there to help my brother and I with homework or to celebrate our achievements, and I'm sure when we were small and needy they never dropped the ball with taking care of us.  There were bedtime stories and games and all kinds of fun. But they prioritized time with each other watching the news or talking about their days once we were old enough to entertain ourselves for a while. This helped them unwind and stay strong as a couple through the challenges of raising 2 kids. I have no doubt that my father loves my mother more than anyone on earth, but I don't mind. They had to cancel a well-deserved 40th anniversary celebration this year due to covid, but seem as happy as ever. They have been a good model for my husband and I in the first few years of marriage, and with our first baby due next month I hope we're able to continue to prioritize our relationship even if it's just a few minutes here and there.

I think putting your relationship first to ensure a strong foundation and caring for/supporting your kids doesn't have to be exclusive if you have a reasonable amount of kids. Not possible when you have eleventy children.

[rebeccawriter01]

On 12/23/2020 at 2:15 PM, raayx01 said:

Zach and Whitney and John and Alyssa had short relationships, but I'm pretty sure Erin and Chad and Brandon and Michaela Were together for 2 years before getting engaged

Erin and Chad were not local for most of theirs, nor were Brandon and Michaela. 

Even if they had been, you could see that Erin and Chad were very uncomfortable with each other for a while into their marriage. John and Alyssa were too, but moving away from her family meant that they had to get to know each other faster. 

Zach and Whitney aren't a very good example on courtships given that they have admitted to kissing before the wedding. If there was kissing, there was probably conversation beyond what is your favorite Bible verse. 

[Lgirlrocks]

17 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Erin and Chad were not local for most of theirs, nor were Brandon and Michaela. 

Even if they had been, you could see that Erin and Chad were very uncomfortable with each other for a while into their marriage. John and Alyssa were too, but moving away from her family meant that they had to get to know each other faster. 

Zach and Whitney aren't a very good example on courtships given that they have admitted to kissing before the wedding. If there was kissing, there was probably conversation beyond what is your favorite Bible verse. 

I still think it’s funny that they claim kissing before marriage was a mistake. I assume they say that for the show. 

[Bobology]

Kissing before marriage was probably a "mistake" because Zach likely endured horrible guilt due to his parents' controlling ways. It is even possible he was feeling so guilty during the kissing that he couldn't truly enjoy it. I'm making this all up, just to be clear.

[Melissa1977]

On 12/23/2020 at 8:15 PM, raayx01 said:

Zach and Whitney and John and Alyssa had short relationships, but I'm pretty sure Erin and Chad and Brandon and Michaela Were together for 2 years before getting engaged

Only Zach could see her girlfriend alone and very often, as she lived in the same town. They claim they had chaperones but he went alone to the restaurant she was working in and obviously had private dates (otherwise they couldn't have kissed), so they had a lot of time for themselves in comparison to other siblings. Also I doubt a police officer in training had a smartphone supervised by his mom. Anyway he could easily hide a phone.

The other couples lived far and visited few times, 100% chaperoned, no private phone calls or messages. Erin and Michael and their boyfriends were very deep into religion and their conversations were mostly about it. I know Kelly could have lied in her blog, but I think both Erin and Michael had an extra-godly courtship where there wasn't time dedicated to talk about mundane things or discover their real personalities. 

Alyssa is different because she and John are more wordly and down-to-Earth. No doubt there was a lot of Bible verses in their courtship, but also normal conversation. Plus they were far more comfortable with the "touching" side of the relationship than other siblings.

[Lgirlrocks]

7 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Only Zach could see her girlfriend alone and very often, as she lived in the same town. They claim they had chaperones but he went alone to the restaurant she was working in and obviously had private dates (otherwise they couldn't have kissed), so they had a lot of time for themselves in comparison to other siblings. Also I doubt a police officer in training had a smartphone supervised by his mom. Anyway he could easily hide a phone.

The other couples lived far and visited few times, 100% chaperoned, no private phone calls or messages. Erin and Michael and their boyfriends were very deep into religion and their conversations were mostly about it. I know Kelly could have lied in her blog, but I think both Erin and Michael had an extra-godly courtship where there wasn't time dedicated to talk about mundane things or discover their real personalities. 

Alyssa is different because she and John are more wordly and down-to-Earth. No doubt there was a lot of Bible verses in their courtship, but also normal conversation. Plus they were far more comfortable with the "touching" side of the relationship than other siblings.

Kelly did lie on the show about Brandon and Michael not holding hands until engagement. They held hands before. There are pics on the old blog. I’m sure she has no problem lying about other things.