Erin & Chad 6: Angling for a Vow Renewal Ceremony

[nokidsmom]

10 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Alyssa is different because she and John are more wordly and down-to-Earth. No doubt there was a lot of Bible verses in their courtship, but also normal conversation. Plus they were far more comfortable with the "touching" side of the relationship than other siblings.

This is pure speculation on my part but I think they kissed before marriage.   Their wedding pictures IMHO showed a couple that were comfortable with each other and honestly I don't think the "touching" side of their relationship precluded a kiss or two.   

And furthermore, I don't think Alyssa was likely to feel any guilt over it, she really came across to me as being completely over her life with her family and was overjoyed to get out of there in addition to being with John.

20 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I still think it’s funny that they claim kissing before marriage was a mistake. I assume they say that for the show. 

IIRC there was another episode where Zach asked his parents what they did while dating and then proceeded to kiss Whitney right there.  If Zach indeed felt any guilt over kissing before marriage it seems that by that time, he was over it.  

On 12/24/2020 at 10:15 PM, rebeccawriter01 said:

Even if they had been, you could see that Erin and Chad were very uncomfortable with each other for a while into their marriage.

To me, it seemed to me that their first months of marriage were rough.   Erin in particular seemed uncomfortable right out of the gate and was having some trouble with adjusting to her new life. 

[JDuggs]

48 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

 

To me, it seemed to me that their first months of marriage were rough.   Erin in particular seemed uncomfortable right out of the gate and was having some trouble with adjusting to her new life. 

I don’t follow them closely enough to remember, but did Erin experience a miscarriage right away after the wedding? Maybe her seeming uncomfortable in her marriage was based in her sorrow over her miscarriage. I’m just speculating on the timing.

[Jackie3]

11 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

The other couples lived far and visited few times, 100% chaperoned, no private phone calls or messages. Erin and Michael and their boyfriends were very deep into religion and their conversations were mostly about it. I know Kelly could have lied in her blog, but I think both Erin and Michael had an extra-godly courtship where there wasn't time dedicated to talk about mundane things or discover their real personalities. 

Alyssa is different because she and John are more wordly and down-to-Earth. No doubt there was a lot of Bible verses in their courtship, but also normal conversation. Plus they were far more comfortable with the "touching" side of the relationship than other siblings.

I don't see anything down-to-earth about Alyssa. In fact, I've rarely seen anyone who is so vain and obsessed with clothing and image. 

As for Erin and Michael, I'm sure they could've had alone time with their prospective partners if they wanted it. Kelly and Gil have 19 kids. You can't watch everyone every minute. My kids are able to sneak around me and there's only two of them! And we really have no idea what the two 20-year olds talked about when they were courting. We can't say they were mostly Bible talk, simply because they seem to toe the line when the camera is on them.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Jackie3

[Melissa1977]

57 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't see anything down-to-earth about Alyssa. In fact, I've rarely seen anyone who is so vain and obsessed with clothing and image. 

As for Erin and Michael, I'm sure they could've had alone time with their prospective partners if they wanted it. Kelly and Gil have 19 kids. You can't watch everyone every minute. My kids are able to sneak around me and there's only two of them! And we really have no idea what the two 20-year olds talked about when they were courting. We can't say they were mostly Bible talk, simply because they seem to toe the line when the camera is on them.

Alyssa was very down-to-Earth at the beginning of her marriage and was way more focused in motherhood when only had Allie. Alyssa is very close to her grandma Jane, who clearly despises Gil's way of life.

The chaperones were the siblings, not the parents. There wasn't a minute of alone time. It's just priorities, Kelly was able to let her babies cry hungry or forget her toddlers' names, but she was 100% focused in marrying her daugthers the sooner the better. Those girls had never received attention before, but courtships were Kelly's passion for sure.

[nausicaa]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:07 PM, rebeccawriter01 said:

Those early couch interviews with Chad and Erin were particularly painful. They honestly didn't know each other at all. I sometimes wonder how she managed to get pregnant given that they seemed to jump if one touched the other.

This is interesting. I had the totally opposite impression during their courtship, that they couldn't wait to jump each other's bones. Which makes sense since both are very conventionally attractive and were sex-starved into their twenties. There was a photo of a group outing before the wedding where FJers were salivating over Chad's biceps on full display, with Erin clutching one of his arms. We were all like "Don't think Erin is worried about that wedding night!" I'm pretty skeptical of most Fundie match ups, but I actually think Erin and Chad are one of the real love ("passion" might be the better word) matches I've seen since joining FJ. 

I do agree with you and others that purity culture seems to really romanticize and idealize marriage. Likely in part because it's their first relationship and also because they feel they need to market the lifestyle. I notice this in people I know who are Mormon. Even the ones who have what I believe to be strong marriages behind closed doors are much more romantically performative than the happily married non-religious (or at least non-virgins before marriage) couples I know. 

45 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

The chaperones were the siblings, not the parents. There wasn't a minute of alone time. It's just priorities, Kelly was able to let her babies cry hungry or forget her toddlers' names, but she was 100% focused in marrying her daughters the sooner the better. Those girls had never received attention before, but courtships were Kelly's passion for sure.

I agree Kelly's weirdly focused on courtships, but I also think that is a consequence of her just enjoying her older daughters more than the babies. The opposite of Michelle, with its own set of attendant issues.

[Jackie3]

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Alyssa was very down-to-Earth at the beginning of her marriage and was way more focused in motherhood when only had Allie. Alyssa is very close to her grandma Jane, who clearly despises Gil's way of life.

The chaperones were the siblings, not the parents. There wasn't a minute of alone time. It's just priorities, Kelly was able to let her babies cry hungry or forget her toddlers' names, but she was 100% focused in marrying her daugthers the sooner the better. Those girls had never received attention before, but courtships were Kelly's passion for sure.

I think she's focused on motherhood. She posts constantly about her pregnancy. I just think she's also very vain and image-conscious. You can be both. 

When Chad/Erin were on a date, yes, there were sibling chaperones. Much easier to manipulate than parents. "Jed, here's some money, go buy us some hot dogs." "Yes, of course, run into the bathroom, Callie, we'll wait in the car."

But I wasn't even thinking about the formal dates. I'm thinking about all the other minutes of the day, when Kelly and Gil couldn't be watching them. I remember being a kid. It is so easy to slip away from the grownups and do forbidden stuff. Grownup have lots of responsibilities and tasks they need to complete. They can't watch you every minute. 

I remember when Michelle Duggar said that Josh and Kaeleigh Holt were "never alone." Sure, Michelle, like you would know. When the Holts came to fellowship, there were 15-25 children in the house (They ultimately had 11 and she had 19), and only 4 adults. How likely is it that they kept their eyes on Josh and Kaeleigh every single minute, in chaotic situation like that? 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Jackie3

[Lgirlrocks]

22 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

As for Erin and Michael, I'm sure they could've had alone time with their prospective partners if they wanted it. Kelly and Gil have 19 kids. You can't watch everyone every minute. My kids are able to sneak around me and there's only two of them! And we really have no idea what the two 20-year olds talked about when they were courting. We can't say they were mostly Bible talk, simply because they seem to toe the line when the camera is on them.

Kelly and Gil did let Brandon and Michael walk in front of them so they could talk alone. Not sure how often that happened. How do you expect two people to get to know each other if everything is done in public. I acted different around my exes family then I did when it was just the two of us. No I wasn’t fake. I cuss a lot and would allow my anxiety to show when it was just the two of us. His family didn’t need to see that. 

[nokidsmom]

22 hours ago, JDuggs said:

I don’t follow them closely enough to remember, but did Erin experience a miscarriage right away after the wedding? Maybe her seeming uncomfortable in her marriage was based in her sorrow over her miscarriage. I’m just speculating on the timing.

She experienced a miscarriage (IIRC it was a very early miscarriage) a few months after the wedding but others here noted she looked uncomfortable even before that occurred. 

20 hours ago, nausicaa said:

There was a photo of a group outing before the wedding where FJers were salivating over Chad's biceps on full display, with Erin clutching one of his arms. We were all like "Don't think Erin is worried about that wedding night!" I'm pretty skeptical of most Fundie match ups, but I actually think Erin and Chad are one of the real love ("passion" might be the better word) matches I've seen since joining FJ. 

@nausicaayes, I remember that too   And it seemed to me as well there was a pretty strong attraction between Chad and Erin unlike other fundie couples we see here.  So it was surprising to me to see Erin so uncomfortable afterwards.  I suspect it had more to do with overall adjusting to being in her own home, away from her family and learning to be the keeper at home and less to do with her relationship to Chad. 

I also remember a poster showing up here stating Erin was upset about moving away from her family and wanted Chad to move in with them or something like that.   This was shortly before the wedding.  May or may not have been true but Erin did appear to have a tough time adjusting afterwards. 

[just_ordinary]

On 12/23/2020 at 4:07 AM, rebeccawriter01 said:

I've said this of all of the girls and guys in the Bates family, but Erin truly had no close relationships to emulate or aspire to within her family. There were her parents and grandparents. But those were well established relationships with children and grown children/grandchildren. She watched no movies or television to hear them tell it. From what I have heard of people who knew them prior to the shows, the family saw people in church on Sunday but that was about it. It was isolated and rare (ATI in Big Sandy or the occasional Gothard sponsored event). 

Her early married days showed a very immature girl who was probably very insecure and unsure even how to act with her husband. I'm sure the early infertility struggles didn't help, as Zach/Whitney and Alyssa/John got pregnant and had babies right away. Who knows what Kelly Jo or others told her privately, but I'm doubting it was all that helpful or encouraging given their views. 

Those early couch interviews with Chad and Erin were particularly painful. They honestly didn't know each other at all. I sometimes wonder how she managed to get pregnant given that they seemed to jump if one touched the other. At one point she seemed spunky and outspoken for an IBLP follower. However she flipped that switch and went into learn to cook and learn to love babies mode (a change based on what Zach and others have said about her never holding the siblings when they were babies and never cooking). 

I think her priority check list is pretty much an example of a woman who is still trying to figure her life out in a lot of ways. It also speaks to evidence that IBLP way of life doesn't seem to prepare these girls for the life they will actually have to live. Yes, they sing songs about being happy while doing housework but they aren't teaching them anything usable. 

Erin seems to be slipping into that Michelle Duggar mode of craving the attention that pregnancy and birth bring her without really focusing on those every day motherhood aspects. I often say Carlin is the biggest attention seeker, but Erin is up there too. When pregnant, Erin gets the princess treatment that she once got as the pianist and special one at home. She wants to build stadiums to have her family there while she gives birth. Most of us crave attention or the spotlight, but these Bates daughters really seem to thrive only when they have their moment. It would probably help if their mother and father paid attention to them at any time that didn't include engagement, weddings, pregnancy announcements or births. 

I certainly hope that Erin can provide a healthy relationship with her children that makes them feel valued no matter their life path. 

If I follow your explanation than I have to say that I find Erin worse. Carlin (and Evan) at least tries to seek attention for herself. Layla might be a prop (I think they are completely overwhelmed with a baby, especially one with a fragile health) but Carlin still try to be important on her own. Erin seems to have decided only pregnancy (with her health situation) and newborns bring the attention long enough so she uses them and doesn’t even try for something of her own anymore. Her CD releases or decorating schemes cannot compete.

On 12/26/2020 at 12:49 AM, Bobology said:

Kissing before marriage was probably a "mistake" because Zach likely endured horrible guilt due to his parents' controlling ways. It is even possible he was feeling so guilty during the kissing that he couldn't truly enjoy it. I'm making this all up, just to be clear.

I think it might have been a bit like that to be honest. He might have been burned by the ridiculous courtship standard and maybe felt some excuse to break out, but he was still deep into it enough to run to his parents afterwards. 
Questioning rules in your head is pretty different than actually going against it. If he truly felt conflicted, he seems to be over it by now though.

@nausicaa romantically performative is indeed the perfect description.

Edited December 28, 2020 by just_ordinary

[rebeccawriter01]

9 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

If I follow your explanation than I have to say that I find Erin worse. Carlin (and Evan) at least tries to seek attention for herself. Layla might be a prop (I think they are completely overwhelmed with a baby, especially one with a fragile health) but Carlin still try to be important on her own. Erin seems to have decided only pregnancy (with her health situation) and newborns bring the attention long enough so she uses them and doesn’t even try for something of her own anymore. Her CD releases or decorating schemes cannot compete.

Erin seems to have turned into a less crazy eyed version of her mother and Michelle Duggar, etc. with all the attention she craves from pregnancy, labor/delivery, and a newborn. She has to be craving another baby at this point with both Whitney and Alyssa expecting their fourth children. Her CD releases seem to be a thing of the past. While they were your typical vanity type of thing since she was paying for studio time and production/distribution, it was something that was unique to her. Now her uniqueness comes from having the most children and her ability to make her husband build things she sees on television and call it decorating. Even though I found her musical abilities suspect, I hate it for her that something she considered a passion for most of her life is basically forgotten now. 

Carlin's always been loud and attention seeking. She found a guy who is the same way. That has given her less of an edge because she has someone to admire her and vice versa. I have a few extended relatives like Carlin. They say very insincere things and want family parties and meals to remind them of the "old days." However, their memories are more akin to a Hallmark Movie when as a family it was rare for the whole group to get together without fighting and arguing. She and Kelly Jo jumped in front of Tori to see the unveiling of Tori's Ms. Renee special wedding dress. She practically knocked Whitney out of the way to congratulate Zach when he graduated from the law enforcement academy. Every picture she has posted for birthdays has been a photo from her wedding even if the birthday person has their back to the camera and the focus is on her. Her graduation from high school (GED) included a party where she and Trace were interviewed like they were on Oprah. Her crying and fake crying are over the top. Of course she wanted the biggest wedding party, poofiest dress, most expensive venue, etc. She only told everyone and the cameras that she was "finally the bride" about 25 times. Yes, she uses her baby as a prop, but I don't doubt that she loves and cares for her. I just think she is immature and would probably have been better off in a family where she could have gotten the attention she craved. 

 

On 12/26/2020 at 1:41 PM, JDuggs said:

I don’t follow them closely enough to remember, but did Erin experience a miscarriage right away after the wedding? Maybe her seeming uncomfortable in her marriage was based in her sorrow over her miscarriage. I’m just speculating on the timing.

I think it is possible that contributed. These quiverful families put so much stock in procreation that when there are fertility issues there are bound to be feelings of inadequacy. When Bringing Up Bates started she was very quick to remind people at every turn that she had been pregnant and had a miscarriage (more than one). It seemed very important to her that people knew and understood that she would and should have been a mother at the same time Whitney was giving birth. 

As someone who had fertility issues and was not married when most of my cousins were married and popping out kids every few months, I felt for her on that. Even without the fundy pressure, you can feel like a failure. Even well-meaning people can say things that have you wondering why you. The number of baby showers and first birthday parties, etc. can seem never ending. I caught myself walking into rooms and feeling like I needed to announce why I wasn't married and/or pregnant. 

 

On 12/26/2020 at 3:56 PM, nausicaa said:

This is interesting. I had the totally opposite impression during their courtship, that they couldn't wait to jump each other's bones. Which makes sense since both are very conventionally attractive and were sex-starved into their twenties. There was a photo of a group outing before the wedding where FJers were salivating over Chad's biceps on full display, with Erin clutching one of his arms. We were all like "Don't think Erin is worried about that wedding night!" I'm pretty skeptical of most Fundie match ups, but I actually think Erin and Chad are one of the real love ("passion" might be the better word) matches I've seen since joining FJ. 

I do agree with you and others that purity culture seems to really romanticize and idealize marriage. Likely in part because it's their first relationship and also because they feel they need to market the lifestyle. I notice this in people I know who are Mormon. Even the ones who have what I believe to be strong marriages behind closed doors are much more romantically performative than the happily married non-religious (or at least non-virgins before marriage) couples I know. 

No doubt that Erin and Chad were attracted to each other. Granted what glimpses we saw were staged photos or one or two episodes of 19KAC. They had already met during United Bates of America and were married by the start of Bringing Up Bates. He clearly adored and still adores her, letting her paint the bedroom pink at first and constantly letting her do her own thing as far decorating and whatever else they want to do. He voices some objections on television, but I doubt they are very serious on or off screen because she still gets her way (the dog with the fleas).

I didn't mean what I said in that they aren't in love with each other. She (and he to a certain extent) had that typical fundy thing going where they were all excited for the wedding and first kiss but then didn't know what to say to each other. You could see a bit of the same thing with Bobby and Tori. While the Bates aren't as strict on the courtship stuff as the Duggars, you can tell there is a lack of actual communication for a while. We haven't seen what they discuss before they start courting/dating, but we know once courtship is on the table that Kelly Jo and the girls are clamoring for a ring and a wedding. After engagement it is all wedding talk that we see. They have started doing a premarital counseling or at least a workbook that Michaela and Brandon did, but most of their dates appear to be chaperoned by children. It turns into joint babysitting exercises rather than actual dating.  At least the Bates seem to be allowed to have private phone conversations and text messages. 

Erin loved (from what I have seen) being the first engaged and first to get married. It gave Erin status over her siblings as the "real" adult in the family. I think that she (like many fundy girls) pictured marriage being like her parents. She pictured herself cooking and raising children and him going out to work. She probably pictured them kissing when he left and when he returned. I'm not all that sure that she pictured the more intimate parts. Even a couple of years later when Michaela was getting married, Erin was still giggling about the idea of the wedding night when she asked her sister was she nervous. 

She changed her habits and focus to match her ideas of marriage. She learned to cook. Even Zach and Michaela have mentioned that she rarely held a baby or cared for the younger siblings before marriage. Yes we all make compromises in relationships and change as we grow older, but she did a true 180. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I bet that if Zach felt guilty about kissing Whitney before marriage his realization that it didn't hurt the actual marriage has taken all of that away. They seem happy enough, from what they show.

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I bet that if Zach felt guilty about kissing Whitney before marriage his realization that it didn't hurt the actual marriage has taken all of that away. They seem happy enough, from what they show.

Sometimes I feel I live in a completely different planet than the Bates. If one of my workmates would feel guilty for kissing his girlfriend and confessed to have his smartphone controlled by his mom, I would feel pity for him (genuine pity). Do you think other policemen mocked Zach? Maybe he told them it was only for the show.

[Lgirlrocks]

13 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I bet that if Zach felt guilty about kissing Whitney before marriage his realization that it didn't hurt the actual marriage has taken all of that away. They seem happy enough, from what they show.

On the show he said he felt guilty and him and Whitney wished they had waited. That may have been for the show or for the sake of his siblings. If he boasted that he felt no guilt and his marriage is fine regardless of pre marital kissing it would send the wrong idea. Josie was kissed and the cheek by Kelton before they married. Now that’s not the same as lip kissing. They seem to have zero guilt, and they shouldn’t. Fundies ruin everything. Holding hands, kissing, having long deep private conversations, going on dates alone, and just being together alone doing every day things helps a person to know if they are with someone they want to spend forever with. Forever is a long time. 

[fluffernutter]

I find the topic of "putting your spouse first" really interesting. My husband and I are really liberal and when we do go to church, which isn't often, it's a UU church. But he was raised in a Lutheran church and had a good relationship with the pastor way back when we got married. The pastor required pre-marital counseling, and he was big on that idea of first God-than marriage-than kids. It kind of spoke to us, as neither one of our parents' marriages were that great. So we did put time and effort into making our marriage a priority over the years- in terms of date nights, addressing issues, getting help quickly when problems were bigger than we could deal with. We always took an anniversary weekend, even if it was just staying home without the kids if we were broke. But.... other stuff often took priority over our marriage, and rightly so. Finishing a degree. Demanding jobs. Babies, illnesses, or when one of kids had some problem going on. My mom's cancer and her care. Sometimes the responsible thing was to put something/someone else first. We would eventually make our way back to being close again. I can honestly say now as empty nesters that it did us good to prioritize our marriage when we could but I don't think there can or should be a once size fits all with this. 

[freethemall]

On 12/26/2020 at 7:42 PM, Jackie3 said:

I think she's focused on motherhood. She posts constantly about her pregnancy. I just think she's also very vain and image-conscious. You can be 

Her posting pregnancy pictures has nothing to do with motherhood, it's just more vanity around the pregnancy aesthetic. We've seen that otherwise once the kids are born shes going in the Michelle Duggar 101 path: yay for pregnancy, babies are so cute, the older kids take on the parenting (as we've already seen with very young Allie) and/or take care of themselves (such as with homeachooling). I agree with others that Alyssa is totally self-obsessed and conceited and started having kids way too early, she only wants the cutesy parts of having kids like matching outfits. And certainly shouldn't be homeschooling them.

Edited December 30, 2020 by freethemall

[Jackie3]

On 12/30/2020 at 6:33 AM, freethemall said:

Her posting pregnancy pictures has nothing to do with motherhood, it's just more vanity around the pregnancy aesthetic. 

Then how did the original poster come to the conclusion that she used to be into motherhood, but not so much anymore?

 

[freethemall]

9 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Then how did the original poster come to the conclusion that she used to be into motherhood, but not so much anymore?

 

I cant speak for the other poster but think the main agreement here is that she invested the most in Allie (such as with homeschool, healthier meals) and then the efforts have gone down with each subsequent kid, which has nothing to do with pregnancy or any other photos. The common thread is she's vain AF hence it's all about dressing up and looking pretty.

Edited January 3, 2021 by freethemall

[Lgirlrocks]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:32 AM, freethemall said:

I cant speak for the other poster but think the main agreement here is that she invested the most in Allie (such as with homeschool, healthier meals) and then the efforts have gone down with each subsequent kid, which has nothing to do with pregnancy or any other photos. The common thread is she's vain AF hence it's all about dressing up and looking pretty.

That’s how my mom was with my older brother. She focused all of her energy on schooling him. She said she didn’t have the energy to home school my younger brother and me. Parents shouldn’t be able to home school if they can’t do it properly for all of their kids. 

[BennettLeland]

Changing topics (kind of) but I have to believe that Erin is desperate to get pregnant again. She seems to like being the one with the most kids and I bet it's driving her crazy that Alyssa is about to join her in the "mom of 4" club and Whitney isn't far behind. 

[BeccaGrim]

As they all seem to have had Covid, I wonder if it delayed her at all. Erin said she'd had a very hard time with it and had been sick for a while. 

[rebeccawriter01]

5 hours ago, BennettLeland said:

Changing topics (kind of) but I have to believe that Erin is desperate to get pregnant again. She seems to like being the one with the most kids and I bet it's driving her crazy that Alyssa is about to join her in the "mom of 4" club and Whitney isn't far behind. 

I'm thinking so too. When they give their lines about the family being competitive, I give a side eye to Erin. She may not be out there playing football, but she does seem like pointing out she was first to get married, has the most kids, etc. 

[Dominionatrix]

I wonder if number of kids is especially a sore spot with her because of her miscarriages. If she had never had complications, they’d already have at least five. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Dominionatrix
Typo

[16strong]

Yes, but where is she trying to put the next one? The house was too small 3 babies ago. Children stacked like cordwood is supposed to be an exaggeration, Erin.

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, 16strong said:

Yes, but where is she trying to put the next one? The house was too small 3 babies ago. Children stacked like cordwood is supposed to be an exaggeration, Erin.

Erin is a perfectionist. She won't move until she finds a beautiful place like the one she lives in. The cottage is little, but cute and has a very instagrammy porch and yard. Erin loves that place.

I think Chad and her have a small budget. They can probably buy a bigger house, but not a beautiful bigger house. She prefers her children "stacked" in a cute house than giving them room enough in an "ugly" one.

Of course Chad could buy an old house and put it nice. But it takes a lot of money and time. If he is working long hours in his business, he may feel too tired for the other project. Or maybe they don't have money enough for the purchase plus to remodel it.

Anyway, I think Paine #5 will be born in the fall of 2021, maybe in 2022. If they put a crib in the master bedroom, they can keep the cottage until 2023 or even 2024. Carson and Brook can move to a RV in the yard then haha.

[SeekingAdventure]

not Carson. Carson will stay in the house, he's mommas best friend. It will be Brookie and Everly that have to move. Holland still has a one-baby-tolerance, but as soon as baby nr 6 comes along, she'll have to fend for herself too..?

 

(I wish I could say it's all sarcasm, but I'm not so sure about Erin..)