Dillards 95: Next?

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, Fundyrunner said:

This is very sad, but doesn't sound like it's technically a stillbirth. I get that we are in a world where people are memorializing every pregnancy loss and mourning as needed, but stillbirths are defined as 20 weeks gestation+. Because they cite four months, this is correctly categorized as a second trimester miscarriage.

Let's not go down this road again, please? Someone played that same semantics game when Joy had hers. Yes, medical terminology changes depending on the week whether it's misscarriage vs stillbirth or zygote vs embryo. But all a "but actually" post does - especially in very difficult situations like this - is make you look like a heartless jerk who's trying to minimize someone's loss and the pain she may be experiencing.

Edited April 14 by Giraffe

[Cam]

It’s a difficult loss. I’ve been there myself.

I know I will be criticized here for my views. But what I don’t understand is why they have to have a photo of themselves to announce the news. Who took the picture? What are the instructions, “okay, Derick, a little closer to Jill and both of you cast your eyes down.” What do Jill and Derick say to each other beforehand? “What should we wear for the photo? Where should we sit?” 

Maybe it’s my age, but I’ve never cared for the photos that show people grieving. I mentioned a long time ago that there was a photo on social media (not Duggar related) taken of a small group of young women wearing pretty dresses and shoes, long flowing hair, all clasping arms with their heads slightly bowed. This was to show how sad they were over the passing of one of the women’s husband. Too picture-perfect. “Look how pretty we look as we grieve.” is what it seemed to convey.  It just didn’t sit right with me. 

Plus, is a public announcement truly necessary? I still have a difficult time talking about my miscarriage all these years later. Some things I guess I don’t understand. I just think if you are going to make a public announcement of this sort it can be done without a photo of the couple.

Edited April 14 by Cam

[Bassett Lady]

15 minutes ago, Cam said:

But what I don’t understand is why they have to have a photo of themselves to announce the news

I am not going to criticize your view, but I will share another view that may help clarify. 
 

Everyone grieves differently. Having personally lost 7 pregnancies, whatever the grieving family does that helps them through the pain, while not hurting anyone else,  is fine by me. 
 

I also understand why some people bring up the technicalities because the technicalities can shape how the grieving family experiences the loss. 
 

For my 7 losses, some were past 20 weeks and therefore officially a stillbirth. In each of those cases I was given a death certificate. For my losses that were before 20 weeks a death certificate was not issued. 
 

I found their lives being recognized, legally, a great comfort. For my losses that were before 20 weeks, the lack of official recognition was difficult, especially when I still had to go through labor and delivery or have a D&C. 
 

When I had still births the hospital offered a professional photographer if we wanted to have pictures. I found a great deal of comfort in taking those photographs. 
 

I never wanted to share them with anyone else, but Jill may have found taking the photos a very cathartic experience and she may look at those photos and feel peace. 
 

If she finds solace in them she may want to share them with others. 
 

When we took photos of our still children I wasn’t grieving, yet. 
 

I was in awe of tiny hands,  little perfect ears, and looking for family traits. (I lost a little girl whose second toe was longer than her big toe, just like me and my maternal grandmother.)
 

The grieving, for me, came later. When I had to leave my babies, then the grieving began. 
 

I have no Idea of what Jill was feeling while she took those photos or why she shared them, but I can understand why people take the photos and why some want to share them. 
 

My grief changed me. I became a more humble person. I give people the benefit of the doubt more easily. I am also keenly aware that my way is not the only way. 

 

[Kiki03910]

4 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

I am not going to criticize your view, but I will share another view that may help clarify. 
 

Everyone grieves differently. Having personally lost 7 pregnancies, whatever the grieving family does that helps them through the pain, while not hurting anyone else,  is fine by me. 
 

I also understand why some people bring up the technicalities because the technicalities can shape how the grieving family experiences the loss. 
 

For my 7 losses, some were past 20 weeks and therefore officially a stillbirth. In each of those cases I was given a death certificate. For my losses that were before 20 weeks a death certificate was not issued. 
 

I found their lives being recognized, legally, a great comfort. For my losses that were before 20 weeks, the lack of official recognition was difficult, especially when I still had to go through labor and delivery or have a D&C. 
 

When I had still births the hospital offered a professional photographer if we wanted to have pictures. I found a great deal of comfort in taking those photographs. 
 

I never wanted to share them with anyone else, but Jill may have found taking the photos a very cathartic experience and she may look at those photos and feel peace. 
 

If she finds solace in them she may want to share them with others. 
 

When we took photos of our still children I wasn’t grieving, yet. 
 

I was in awe of tiny hands,  little perfect ears, and looking for family traits. (I lost a little girl whose second toe was longer than her big toe, just like me and my maternal grandmother.)
 

The grieving, for me, came later. When I had to leave my babies, then the grieving began. 
 

I have no Idea of what Jill was feeling while she took those photos or why she shared them, but I can understand why people take the photos and why some want to share them. 
 

My grief changed me. I became a more humble person. I give people the benefit of the doubt more easily. I am also keenly aware that my way is not the only way. 

 

Thank you for sharing this. Best to you.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

22 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I wonder if Michelle is rethinking anything. Joy had a stillbirth, Jill now has a stillbirth, various of them have had multiple miscarriages. I just wonder if Michelle has ever had the self awareness to take a step back and think about how much pain and grief her and JB's teachings have had on their daughters as they've navigated difficult losses. 

I doubt Michelle has the awareness or introspection skills needed to see the harm she has caused and consider a different path. Those kids are largely on their own. 

[Smee]

I don't know that Michelle would be very introspective about what she's said in the past and the potential harm of that, but I'm also not sure she would still tout the same view about what 'causes' miscarriages and late term pregnancy losses as she did back when the show started and her one and only miscarriage with Caleb was the story's inciting incident. I'd think her own body reaching an age where she couldn't sustain a pregnancy anymore, regardless of the prayer and repentance and openness to 'as many as God will bless us with' might have be grounding for her, the loss of Jubilee especially. And Jill's, Joy's, Jessa's, Lauren's miscarriages and stillbirths have been losses of her grandbabies, she'd be grieving them too.

Poor Jill. She's been through so much. I hope she feels supported in her grief and continues to lean on her networks, therapist etc.

[EmiSue]

I looked at Deena Dillard's IG page--she's married to Derick's brother Dan. They have two boys and have had three miscarriages, two in the last year. Deena called Isla "our first Dillard girl" and that really got me. It's not just Jill and Derick's baby, not just their first daughter after three sons, but the first granddaughter on Derick's side after five grandsons. It makes this horrible loss even worse for everyone.

Though of course for the Duggars she's just #34 and the child of the prodigal daughter. I really hope Jill gets the support she needs outside of her shitty family.

[SoSoNosy]

For these parents, pictures are all they will have of that baby, to remember her by.  There used to be a forum on the internet called "NowISleep.com", there was and I think stills, a group of volunteers around the country who will go at a minute's notice to take professional pictures of the parents and the babies.  If it is still there, it isn't public anymore, but there were pictures on that site of babies whose eyes were still sealed shut.  The organization is/was called "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep"..

[SassyPants]

I have noticed the trend on SM since the age of influencers is to share the good and the bad. In recent weeks I have seen photos documenting the deaths of young influencers dealing with cancer. I understand families needing photos but I’m not sure how I feel about the SM aspect. Such a heavy topic-

[SoSoNosy]

I fully agree with that, but I am prone to grieve privately.  But the Dugger kids (and Bates) don't know anything but living in the public eye.

 

[Alisamer]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I have noticed the trend on SM since the age of influencers is to share the good and the bad. In recent weeks I have seen photos documenting the deaths of young influencers dealing with cancer. I understand families needing photos but I’m not sure how I feel about the SM aspect. Such a heavy topic-

 

1 hour ago, SoSoNosy said:

I fully agree with that, but I am prone to grieve privately.  But the Dugger kids (and Bates) don't know anything but living in the public eye.

I think many people these days have connections through social media that they'd never have had otherwise. People share their lives and make friends through socials, and it must seem natural at that point to share the bad that way, too. 

Like, if you had half a million acquaintances who saw you several times a month and celebrated your pregnancy with you (even if you didn't know them personally, not really) and suddenly you weren't pregnant anymore and you said NOTHING about it... that's going to mean lots of questions and rumors and wondering, and the issue is likely to come up over and over again. I can totally understand wanting to put the info out there in the way you chose to, sharing what you chose to share. 

Part of Jill's life is sharing her story with others, and part of that is her choice and part was thrust on her by JimBob, but I can totally understand why she'd want to post about what happened. And a nice photo with their daughter, one of the only photos they'll ever have with her, is a simple way to do it. Even if people didn't bother to read past the header of the post, it's clear. The baby was born, she was early, she was stillborn, we are grieving.

 

[SoSoNosy]

I can't edit  my previous post now, but I did look for the organization; it's still there but it's .org instead of .com and it isn't a bunch of forums and threads like it used to be.  They do still have photographers who volunteer to do these pictures and nurses know about them.  They do black and white pictures only then they retouch the pictures so that bruising, etc, doesn't show.  

[AussieKrissy]

On 4/15/2024 at 8:47 AM, Bassett Lady said:

I am not going to criticize your view, but I will share another view that may help clarify. 
 

Everyone grieves differently. Having personally lost 7 pregnancies, whatever the grieving family does that helps them through the pain, while not hurting anyone else,  is fine by me. 
 

I also understand why some people bring up the technicalities because the technicalities can shape how the grieving family experiences the loss. 
 

For my 7 losses, some were past 20 weeks and therefore officially a stillbirth. In each of those cases I was given a death certificate. For my losses that were before 20 weeks a death certificate was not issued. 
 

I found their lives being recognized, legally, a great comfort. For my losses that were before 20 weeks, the lack of official recognition was difficult, especially when I still had to go through labor and delivery or have a D&C. 
 

When I had still births the hospital offered a professional photographer if we wanted to have pictures. I found a great deal of comfort in taking those photographs. 
 

I never wanted to share them with anyone else, but Jill may have found taking the photos a very cathartic experience and she may look at those photos and feel peace. 
 

If she finds solace in them she may want to share them with others. 
 

When we took photos of our still children I wasn’t grieving, yet. 
 

I was in awe of tiny hands,  little perfect ears, and looking for family traits. (I lost a little girl whose second toe was longer than her big toe, just like me and my maternal grandmother.)
 

The grieving, for me, came later. When I had to leave my babies, then the grieving began. 
 

I have no Idea of what Jill was feeling while she took those photos or why she shared them, but I can understand why people take the photos and why some want to share them. 
 

My grief changed me. I became a more humble person. I give people the benefit of the doubt more easily. I am also keenly aware that my way is not the only way. 

 

oh babe, 

so amazingly expressed. I'm tearing up at work.

How proud your angel babies must be of their awesome Mum, who despite tragedy has grown in grace and compassion. 

Sending you some lovely ju ju to you.  

[Father Son Holy Goat]

16 hours ago, EmiSue said:

I looked at Deena Dillard's IG page--she's married to Derick's brother Dan. They have two boys and have had three miscarriages, two in the last year. Deena called Isla "our first Dillard girl" and that really got me. It's not just Jill and Derick's baby, not just their first daughter after three sons, but the first granddaughter on Derick's side after five grandsons. It makes this horrible loss even worse for everyone.

Though of course for the Duggars she's just #34 and the child of the prodigal daughter. I really hope Jill gets the support she needs outside of her shitty family.

That’s heartbreaking. This little girl was very much wanted and just didn’t make it. I hope the families find peace. 
 

12 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

I fully agree with that, but I am prone to grieve privately.  But the Dugger kids (and Bates) don't know anything but living in the public eye.

 

I only hope Jill is sharing because she wants to, but because she feels he has to. 

[AprilQuilt]

So sad for the Dillards. When you lose a baby at that stage - whatever word you use for the loss - you have so little to prove they ever existed. You get so little time with them. I can't judge anyone for taking pictures, nor for sharing them if that's what they want to do. That was the only time in the world Jill and Derick got to hold their little girl, and obviously it is devastatingly sad but when you are in that position it is also so incredibly precious and full of awe - even joy, in a way. It's an honour to get that time with a baby you would have loved to carry for longer, and it's natural to want to share that pride.

It is so hard to tell the world you are a parent to a child who isn't here. These are the photos that make that real, in a way. It's the only moment with their daughter they'll ever get to share.

Semantics-wise, whether or not Jill technically cleared the 20-week mark that would magically designate Isla stillborn not miscarried, she laboured to deliver a clearly recognisable human infant. Her body changed carrying this baby and she may even have started to feel her move. It's a different experience to a first trimester mc (which can also be truly awful). It was probably not unlike her other births, just to a much smaller baby they knew wouldn't come home with them. And that's a horrendous thing to go through.

[AprilQuilt]

39 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

So sad for the Dillards. When you lose a baby at that stage - whatever word you use for the loss - you have so little to prove they ever existed. You get so little time with them. I can't judge anyone for taking pictures, nor for sharing them if that's what they want to do. That was the only time in the world Jill and Derick got to hold their little girl, and obviously it is devastatingly sad but when you are in that position it is also so incredibly precious and full of awe - even joy, in a way. It's an honour to get that time with a baby you would have loved to carry for longer, and it's natural to want to share that pride.

It is so hard to tell the world you are a parent to a child who isn't here. These are the photos that make that real, in a way. It's the only moment with their daughter they'll ever get to share.

Semantics-wise, whether or not Jill technically cleared the 20-week mark that would magically designate Isla stillborn not miscarried, she laboured to deliver a clearly recognisable human infant. Her body changed carrying this baby and she may even have started to feel her move. It's a different experience to a first trimester mc (which can also be truly awful). It was probably not unlike her other births, just to a much smaller baby they knew wouldn't come home with them. And that's a horrendous thing to go through.

sorry, maybe this sounds speculative on my part. I mean this is how it felt to me. The one 'good' thing about being in the midst of my second trimester miscarriage was feeling I got to do this thing for my baby, that I would get to meet her and be with her for a little while. I loved her very much. I wish she could have stayed.

[GutenbergGirl]

I lost a baby at 24 weeks, back in 1989, when I was 14 years old.  Back then, there really wasn't any real efforts going on to save 24 weekers.  (I delivered at a small, rural hospital.  There probably were efforts made at larger hospitals in cities.)

I would give almost anything to have pictures of him, and pictures of his dad and me with him.  It's been almost 35 years, and I still grieve for him.  It's not as devastating or as sharp as it was at first.  But, every time I hear of someone having a miscarriage, or stillbirth, or a baby who died shortly after birth, it brings my own grief for my baby to the surface again.  

[SassyPants]

1 thing I have to wonder about is with Jill’s poor OB history (a couple of LGA babies, 2-3 NIUC stays (was Izzy in the NICU?), A ruptured uterus, 2 miscarriages, one a late miscarriage, c-section deliveries…) I just have to wonder about when the Dillards would say “we have 3 healthy boys”, and maybe “we can call our family complete”. I always got the feeling that Jill reallllllly wanted a daughter, and this baby being a girl, must be very hard. The D’s admit to using BC, so they are deciding when to try to conceive and not “leaving it up to God.” Maybe God is trying to tell them something? They have never had a smooth delivery- I think I might say, “I am done.”

[JermajestyDuggar]

Jill always seemed like the sister who most enjoyed kids when they were still living at home. So I always figured she would have a lot of kids. And she probably assumed that too. But then all her problems started happening and she deconstructed. Which means she doesn’t believe that birth control is bad. So I think part of her still wants a big family. Even though she’s had so many problems with pregnancy.

[AprilQuilt]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

1 thing I have to wonder about is with Jill’s poor OB history (a couple of LGA babies, 2-3 NIUC stays (was Izzy in the NICU?), A ruptured uterus, 2 miscarriages, one a late miscarriage, c-section deliveries…) I just have to wonder about when the Dillards would say “we have 3 healthy boys”, and maybe “we can call our family complete”. I always got the feeling that Jill reallllllly wanted a daughter, and this baby being a girl, must be very hard. The D’s admit to using BC, so they are deciding when to try to conceive and not “leaving it up to God.” Maybe God is trying to tell them something? They have never had a smooth delivery- I think I might say, “I am done.”

FWIW I don't find that 'maybe God is trying to tell them something' is a particularly helpful thing to say about someone who has just lost a baby. Ask me how I know!!!!

But to treat your question as one made in good faith: per Counting the Cost it sounds like they did serious thinking about this after Samuel's very dangerous birth, especially as they didn't know if he had suffered brain damage. It sounds like it did a bit of a number on her existentially, to think of herself as someone who wouldn't have millions of children, but she seemed to be willing to park that vision. 

I am 100% certain that after Samuel they will have proceeded with extreme caution. There's no way they haven't sought (and taken) good medical advice for her last 3 pregnancies. There are a million reasons a baby doesn't make it to term, most of them utterly beyond our control or prediction.

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

FWIW I don't find that 'maybe God is trying to tell them something' is a particularly helpful thing to say about someone who has just lost a baby. Ask me how I know!!!!

But to treat your question as one made in good faith: per Counting the Cost it sounds like they did serious thinking about this after Samuel's very dangerous birth, especially as they didn't know if he had suffered brain damage. It sounds like it did a bit of a number on her existentially, to think of herself as someone who wouldn't have millions of children, but she seemed to be willing to park that vision. 

I am 100% certain that after Samuel they will have proceeded with extreme caution. There's no way they haven't sought (and taken) good medical advice for her last 3 pregnancies. There are a million reasons a baby doesn't make it to term, most of them utterly beyond our control or prediction.

Thank you for not blasting me. What I was saying was how I would think if this were me and my OB (and religious ) history. My kids are adults old enough to have their own kids. In my day, there were not many OBs who would advocate for vbacs or large numbers of c-sections. I needed c-sections because both of my kids were unfavorable presentations, and I had a failed induction the first time around. Had I wanted a large family at that time, by OB history would have ruled that possibility out. 

[Giraffe]

I imagine most of the second generation have re-thought their parent's/in-laws views on having as many children as they possibly can, even if they went into marriage with that ideology. I'm sure some of them experienced a rude awakening when they realized Michelle was the exception not the norm. 

Edited April 18 by Giraffe

[Alisamer]

I suspect they'll probably give it another try for a girl, and/or to even out the number of kids at 4. 

Just as long as they don't end up like the Weasleys, with a ton of boys in search of the blessed girl child. 

I think they'll probably follow medical advice and proceed with caution, they seem to be capable of thinking and change even if I don't always agree with their beliefs. And I hope Jill is still seeing her therapist, it's amazing how much that seems to have helped her.

[SassyPants]

11 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I imagine most of the second generation have re-thought their parent's/in-laws views on having as many children as they possibly can, even if they went into marriage with that ideology. I'm sure some of them experienced a rude awakening when they realized Michelle was the exception not the norm. 

It really is amazing how KJ and M flew through the first 12-15 pregnancies before they started experiencing more difficulties. Not so for their daughters. So many losses, NICU time, bad deliveries, transfusions, and most of the G2 are getting actual medical care where I think KJ and M received some home-care and maybe not the most educated providers.

[Nikedagain?]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:05 PM, SassyPants said:

1 thing I have to wonder about is with Jill’s poor OB history (a couple of LGA babies, 2-3 NIUC stays (was Izzy in the NICU?), A ruptured uterus, 2 miscarriages, one a late miscarriage, c-section deliveries…) I just have to wonder about when the Dillards would say “we have 3 healthy boys”, and maybe “we can call our family complete”. I always got the feeling that Jill reallllllly wanted a daughter, and this baby being a girl, must be very hard. The D’s admit to using BC, so they are deciding when to try to conceive and not “leaving it up to God.” Maybe God is trying to tell them something? They have never had a smooth delivery- I think I might say, “I am done.”

Actually wondering how many C-Sections a woman can have?