Trace Bates 1: The Flossing Fundie

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just tossing this out here...again.

It's not a good thing when these cultists get married.

It's not a good thing when these cultists, who have never disavowed the Pearl's training, have children.

And it doesn't matter how pretty the packaging - it's nothing but limited options, abuse, and perpetuation of bigotry towards innocent people.

We can say this isn't a fan site all we want but it sure as hell looks like one with people on bated breath to hear about their latest relationship developments.  

[AussieKrissy]

44 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Just tossing this out here...again.

It's not a good thing when these cultists get married.

It's not a good thing when these cultists, who have never disavowed the Pearl's training, have children.

And it doesn't matter how pretty the packaging - it's nothing but limited options, abuse, and perpetuation of bigotry towards innocent people.

We can say this isn't a fan site all we want but it sure as hell looks like one with people on bated breath to hear about their latest relationship developments.  

I don’t think most people are waiting with bated breath, more like predicting/expecting the inevitable....

it may not be a fan site, but people, like to have something to talk about.  Like it or not a courtship/proposal/baby are things to discuss.  
 

I actually rarely see Duggar/bates humpers on here and the ones I have, I highly suspect as trolls.  

[Italiangirl]

I personally am interest in this also to see how long they (general) will be together before marriage, it seems that at least between the Bates the time is growing so at least we could hope that the young adult involved in a relationship know the partner better than the previous one 

Is that making sense? Cause I'm writing with the tv in Italian next to me, and sometimes could be hard to write in a language and hearing another one under ?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

I don’t think most people are waiting with bated breath, more like predicting/expecting the inevitable....

it may not be a fan site, but people, like to have something to talk about.  Like it or not a courtship/proposal/baby are things to discuss.  
 

I actually rarely see Duggar/bates humpers on here and the ones I have, I highly suspect as trolls.  

If you don't see people following D list celebrities (if that) romantic lives with interest is humping than we certainly disagree.  And since their courtships, marriages, proposals and babies are actively harmful both to the indoctrinated cult members and society as a whole I don't see those topics of casual conversation.

I wouldn't follow FLDS, neo-nazis, klan members and casually wonder when they are getting married or why Eva and Adolph keep taking down and reposting their insta pics.

Yes, hyperbole...yes, these kids are victims of being raised in their parents cult.  That's why I don't get why how they perpetuate it is treated so casually here.

And fwiw there are plenty of topics to discuss outside of the Bateesess, or even fundies, both here and elsewhere on the internet.  There is more to life than the courtships of emotional children.

Edited January 6, 2020 by HerNameIsBuffy

[HereticHick]

Am I imaging it, or do fundys like the Bates and Duggars end up in more long-distance romances than the average US population?  Especially romances where the two participants have never lived/attended school near each other. (Trace and Chaney, Katie and whats his name in New Jersey, etc)

I feel like that they do--necessitated I guess by the relatively small and far-flung Gothardite population.

There may be some other very conservative religion populations, esp. immigrants, who basically do matchmaking, that have just as high rates of far-flung matching.

I'm think about South Asian friends, for example, whose parents find them spouses back in the old country!

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If you don't see people following D list celebrities (if that) romantic lives with interest is humping than we certainly disagree.  And since their courtships, marriages, proposals and babies are actively harmful both to the indoctrinated cult members and society as a whole I don't see those topics of casual conversation.

I wouldn't follow FLDS, neo-nazis, klan members and casually wonder when they are getting married or why Eva and Adolph keep taking down and reposting their insta pics.

Yes, hyperbole...yes, these kids are victims of being raised in their parents cult.  That's why I don't get why how they perpetuate it is treated so casually here.

And fwiw there are plenty of topics to discuss outside of the Bateesess, or even fundies, both here and elsewhere on the internet.  There is more to life than the courtships of emotional children.

I do have to say when I was totally appalled by stalker Kelton and his creepy chasing of middle school age Josie followed by his eventual marriage to her, I was completely surprised at how I was attacked. As a COLLEGE STUDENT, he got mad because a 14 year old rejected him yet people applaud their adorableness. I am still flummoxed about the hate I got over my disgust at their whole relationship. It totally illustrates what is so damn wrong with created to be his helpmeet- centric fundamentalism. It was not much different than Jessiqua and Maranatha's stories, yet their instagram looks so good and poor Kelton lost his mother so his obsessive creeping on a CHILD is a-ok.

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If you don't see people following D list celebrities (if that) romantic lives with interest is humping than we certainly disagree.  And since their courtships, marriages, proposals and babies are actively harmful both to the indoctrinated cult members and society as a whole I don't see those topics of casual conversation.

I wouldn't follow FLDS, neo-nazis, klan members and casually wonder when they are getting married or why Eva and Adolph keep taking down and reposting their insta pics.

Yes, hyperbole...yes, these kids are victims of being raised in their parents cult.  That's why I don't get why how they perpetuate it is treated so casually here.

And fwiw there are plenty of topics to discuss outside of the Bateesess, or even fundies, both here and elsewhere on the internet.  There is more to life than the courtships of emotional children.

Are you not yourself, following along these D list celebrities simply by being here? 

Yes there is plenty of topics to discuss, yet here you and I are....

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Are you not yourself, following along these D list celebrities simply by being here? 

Yes there is plenty of topics to discuss, yet here you and I are....

I give zero fucks about the romantic machinations of any of these people.  I am posting in this thread, in particular, because frankly due to second hand embarrassment over the fangirling.  I shouldn't but I do kind of get ashamed to be associated with a fan site and that's what this corner of FJ is the vast majority of the time.

You and I are not having a conversation about idiot children and their courtships.  I am having a futile conversation about FJ and it's intent.

Doesn't matter.  I've said my piece, it will be ignored the same as "this is not a fan site" in bold is ignored and I'll go back to joining the others who don't venture into this part of FJ for the same reason and those here can go back to posting about their constant refreshing of their instas looking for clues over the next twee relationship.  

 

[AussieKrissy]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I give zero fucks about the romantic machinations of any of these people.  I am posting in this thread, in particular, because frankly due to second hand embarrassment over the fangirling.  I shouldn't but I do kind of get ashamed to be associated with a fan site and that's what this corner of FJ is the vast majority of the time.

You and I are not having a conversation about idiot children and their courtships.  I am having a futile conversation about FJ and it's intent.

Doesn't matter.  I've said my piece, it will be ignored the same as "this is not a fan site" in bold is ignored and I'll go back to joining the others who don't venture into this part of FJ for the same reason and those here can go back to posting about their constant refreshing of their instas looking for clues over the next twee relationship.  

 

Cool cool

Also, learnt something new today, had to look up Twee. New favourite word

[lumpentheologie]

I don't think showing interest in their relationships and babies is necessarily humping. It's different from other hate groups because their whole cult is based around babies, so keeping track of their relationships etc allows us to track how successful they are at perpetuating the cult, and that's important.  It's a different kind of interest than waiting with baited breath.  

But also for the second gen, a lot of us see marriage as their best chance to escape their parents, whether that means leaving the cult or just escaping the particular abuse they're getting at home. I think this is more true for daughters than sons, but for both it's their first opportunity to make their own decisions, and we're hopeful that those decisions will be better. 

And then there's the snark value.  Some of us are waiting with baited breath for the Nurthan nuptials, but I don't think that makes us Jill fangirls. 

 

ETA: per their instas, Gil's brother and his family are skiing in Colorado now too, so it could just be an extended family trip. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by lumpentheologie

[kmachete14]

I agree that marriage, especially for the boys, allows us to see their true colors. And it is interesting that the boys, so far, have picked more fundie-lite women to marry. 

For the women, it's debatable if marriage helps them or hinders them (saddled with babies immediately, we can't know if they are just following their husbands, i.e.). For men, we get to see how they run their family, how they treat women/their wife, and clearly we can see that they are attracted to women that are not carbon copies of their parents' expectations for women. 

Zach's marriage showed he has work ethic, he wants to provide much better standard of living for his kids, he does not disparage popular culture, books, & TV for his kids, he would allow his wife to work and dress normally, he disagrees with his parents' dating rules, he has no interest in preaching theology to the masses, he is a hands on father, he may be open to accruing some debt, he has an open mind towards the law instead of black and white, etc. It remains to be seen what his views on family planning, education, his daughters' rights, etc. are. 

In a similar way, I am interested to see what type of person Trace turns out to be when not under his parents' wing. I'm also interested to see how Chaney (who is not an Anna Duggar type) adjusts to married life, considering she is slightly more worldly, educated, and fundie-lite than the Bates. 

I keep up with their courting and marriage because I see it as an interesting sociological experiment in religion, social class, and gender studies. This marriage will be another experiment to observe. Yeah, it's a type of voyeurism, but they put themselves out there (or will, when they are "free" married adults) knowing this. 

They are getting married eventually, we can't stop that. Interested does not mean fangirling. 

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

21 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

he has an open mind towards the law instead of black and white

Has Zach disavowed his families beliefs?  Genuine question, I don't watch the show.  If so, great, but why is he still playing a role in their dog and pony show.

He is an armed law enforcement officer who has not, to my knowledge, disavowed his families racism or bigotry toward gays, non-Christians, or others.  He also ran for office once on a Christian platform.  I don't think allowing his wife to work or being okay with kissing before marriage negates the danger having someone like that in a position of authority.  

29 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

Interested does not mean fangirling. 

No it doesn't, the way that is expressed on other threads here at FJ.  When there is back and forth about pics up and down and what's happening, did they break up?!  It absolutely is.  

[HermioneSparrow]

2 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

Zach's marriage showed he has work ethic, he wants to provide much better standard of living for his kids, he does not disparage popular culture, books, & TV for his kids, he would allow his wife to work and dress normally, he disagrees with his parents' dating rules, he has no interest in preaching theology to the masses, he is a hands on father, he may be open to accruing some debt, he has an open mind towards the law instead of black and white, etc. It remains to be seen what his views on family planning, education, his daughters' rights, etc. are.

I'm sorry, what? Do you really think Zach has different beliefs than his parents? Just the thought of him ALLOWING Whitney anything as if she's his property is one of the most important aspects of that cult: the patriarchy.

Also, what open mind? The dude is deep neck into Trump-ism, he doesn't have an open mind about the law. 

It's fine that you want to discuss their relationships but stop being on denial.

[OHFL2009]

1 hour ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Also, what open mind? The dude is deep neck into Trump-ism, he doesn't have an open mind about the law. 

I assume @kmachete14 is referring to a scene a while back on the show where Zach had one of the younger boys (Trace? Jackson?) on a ride-along and he was talking about the differences between types of crime. It was discussed here at the time, and i don't remember the exact way he phrased it, but it was something along the lines of certain types of crimes may negatively affect the individual, like drug use, while other types of crime are more broadly harmful to society, like murder. 

[kmachete14]

@OHFL2009 that's exactly the scene I'm referring to, when he said some people just want to be left alone and they don't pose a threat to others. And Zach does have different beliefs and has called out his parents for being hypocrites about their dating life, and he is happily married despite not having his first kiss at the altar. He allows his children to read pooh-bear and watch cartoons. We don't know if he "allows" Whitney certain clothes, but he certainly doesn't make it known that he demands skirts only for his daughters or his wife. All of this has been discussed on their thread and demonstrated in the shows as well as their social media. He has a "regular" job and a house that has enough space for all his children (So far). 

I may have missed it, but I don't think Whitney or Zach have ever explicitly posted theology or politics. 

So, although they may be slim, he does have different beliefs from his father, and even recognizes the problems from his own upbringing . .. for many, that is the first step in being "free." 

[nausicaa]

Just now, kmachete14 said:

I may have missed it, but I don't think Whitney or Zach have ever explicitly posted theology or politics. 

Whitney did post in support of Trump during the 2016 election. 

I do think though that Zach has made several comments that demonstrated some more nuanced and mature thinking in regards to people living differently and an awareness of the challenges others go through. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

I may have missed it, but I don't think Whitney or Zach have ever explicitly posted theology or politics. 

He ran for local office on a Christian platform.  It's in the older threads.  How much more explicit could he be.

Most of people in this country trying to get their biblical beliefs codified into law, who are waging war (with scary success on many fronts) against women's reproductive rights, who want to deny rights to LGBT community...the vast majority of those people kiss before marriage.  And date.  And women wear pants and have jobs.  

Him calling out his parents for dating hypocrisy?  So what?  Gothard rules are followed by a very small subset of religious bigots.  

Gil covered up for a sexual predator and moved up the ladder after he was outsted...and he now helps run the organization responsible for the systemic abuse within their cult and Zach is still part of the PR for that.  

 

 

[kmachete14]

@HerNameIsBuffy all valid points. But I still see it as a diversion from Gothardism/ IBLP type fundamentalism and just into plain conservative Christianity. 

[nelliebelle1197]

16 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

@HerNameIsBuffy all valid points. But I still see it as a diversion from Gothardism/ IBLP type fundamentalism and just into plain conservative Christianity. 

Not at all. He is still a fundie. This is what people seem to miss. A few surface changes signal nothing. Pants signal nothing. Each of the families we discuss interpret fundamentalism differently. There is no reason to think Zach is doing anything but applying his family principals in a slightly different way, the way Jim Bob Duggar applies them slightly differently than Gil Bates. It's apples to apples - green apple to red apple - it may look different on the surface but it is still an apple. People over on RodWorld think JRod's sister Lisa is less fundie because she seems to have less tolerance for Jill's antics. Lisa works for one of those awful Christian "legal groups" that are always trying to insert Jesus into the government and schools. Lisa is actually worse than Jill in what she is perpetuating but she rolls her eyes at Jill, so suddenly she is better. Nope.

Fundamentalism comes in all sorts of packages and isn't one thing. Does Zach believe in inerrancy? Homeschooling? Women's submission? Dominionism? Answer those questions to find out if he is a fundie.

[kmachete14]

Well, a lot of Christian religions believe in inerrancy, that public schools should teach religion and include prayer and are filled with evil, that women should be submissive to men (or they water it down and call it complementarianism), and that the founding fathers and the constitution are inherently Christian. So again, I don't think those beliefs are limited to fundamentalism. 

Regardless, my first comment did not debate whether Zach was a fundie, a fundie-lite, or a Conservative christian. My comment stated that his beliefs were different than his parents, and that second-generation fundies are part of a sociological experiment that is interesting to watch and has implications for American culture. 

It IS true that he has different beliefs -- whether his core theology is the same or not. The small differences he makes could be the small cracks that allow him, many years later, or his children, to find "Freedom." Recognizing hypocrisy in your parents over one thing is a gateway to realizing they might not be right about many things. Watching them allows us to see how it will play out.

The conversation revolved around why people watch the Bates, and post about them here, and what the attraction is to following their show/social media/etc. The conversation was about fangirling vs. interest in a cultural phenomenon, not the level of fundamentalist Zach Bates is. 

Some people think Zach is different from his parents (myself included) and some think he is exactly the same. Regardless, following their family allows us to keep track of a dangerous movement, their changing ideas and manipulations, and look for clues that the whole facade is breaking down. 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

When the majority of the country only understands two parties, all of conservative America from fundy to right-leaning ends up voting for Trump. Leading us to massive amounts of generalizations

I for one am getting sick of these conversations that shut down posters who disagree with the notion that the 2nd gen could change/will change/show signs of change/may think on their own/etc.

I think leaving cults or any belief system you grow up with is unbelievably hard. Since 2016 I sense that FJ is growing fearful. A mentality of fuck them all. They're all the same "other guy who is going to screw up me and my rights."

Zach isn't going to publicly disavow his parents till they are off tv. Maybe not ever. I doubt they will ever vote for the nonRepublican. None of them will. The general understanding of what it means to leave a cult on this board is unbelievably shallow. As is our empathy towards it.

Must we qualify all discussions now with I know they're horrible but...

Or...I'm not fangirling but....

FFFS...  We made that point. We shouldn't quit making it. We eliminated the flood of social media  photo spamming. Sometimes Duggar/Bates threads sit pleasantly dormant for days.

And then yeah we do look at a new dress or baby. I argue that's dying down too because it's getting boring.

TLDR

They can only generate as much interest as we let them.

 

(Nothing about the Josie/Kelton discussion went well. He presented himself terribly and creepy as all hell. But even with them - perhaps his experience with his mom could be be eye-opening in his own life and parenting choices. Doubtful. Maybe?)

 

The fact that JRod flips a thread every 48 hours is not that exciting to me. I think she has more posters needing to snark on every single thing. Yawm. Ymmv. Good thread titles lately ?

[AliceInFundyland]

Furthermore, if Trace wasn't a Bates I think we'd have no problem putting him in the general categories of dating/courting, engaged, or expecting.

He has a thread of his own because we started that policy with the families as they started having social media.

These middle kids are dull AF and we don't know anything about them. I think if he were Trace Wissman he'd be in the general threads. But he isn't so we didn't

We could always change that protocol back. Bates and Duggars don't get a thread till they do something thread worthy. And set the bar up to marriage??

[neurogirl]

On 1/9/2020 at 11:25 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

When the majority of the country only understands two parties, all of conservative America from fundy to right-leaning ends up voting for Trump. Leading us to massive amounts of generalizations...

I think leaving cults or any belief system you grow up with is unbelievably hard. Since 2016 I sense that FJ is growing fearful. A mentality of fuck them all. They're all the same "other guy who is going to screw up me and my rights."

Absolutely this. My family is divided between liberal/conservative...trump lovers/trump haters. I am firmly in the liberal category and have such a hard time being around my relatives who think differently BUT I can assure you they are not in a cult. They are conservative, and the entire conservative party is Donald J Trump at this point, and yes my uncle is part of the about 40% of the population that will not be changing their votes or opinions any time soon, but to call 40% of the US fundamentalists is just inaccurate. 

If Zach supports women working outside the home (even in a part-time capacity), doesn't have more children than he and Whitney can financially and emotionally support, doesn't force his children into a courtship/chaperoned dating relationship, those are all signs to me that he is making real steps away from his parents. At what point they become "regular Christian conservatives" I don't know, but I do know he and Whit are never going to be ok with abortion, and that sucks, but it won't mean they're still fundamentalists. 

[Maggie Mae]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:25 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

I for one am getting sick of these conversations that shut down posters who disagree with the notion that the 2nd gen could change/will change/show signs of change/may think on their own/etc.

I think some of them will change. I don't think many of them will do it publically.

 

On 1/9/2020 at 10:25 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

Zach isn't going to publicly disavow his parents till they are off tv. Maybe not ever. I doubt they will ever vote for the nonRepublican. None of them will.

I think it's more likely that he (or someone else) might vote non-Republican, but we'll never know about it. If someone, not necessarily Zach, but any of these people did decide to change their view points, I would think they would probably do it privately first. Anything they do would get back to their parents, and plenty of non-funamentalists don't want to have these kind of disagreements with their parents.  Being in the public eye like this means that anything they put out there will get back to their siblings, their parents, their friends. And sometimes you just don't want to have that fight.

On 1/9/2020 at 10:25 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

The general understanding of what it means to leave a cult on this board is unbelievably shallow. As is our empathy towards it.

I so agree.

On 1/9/2020 at 10:25 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

The fact that JRod flips a thread every 48 hours is not that exciting to me. I think she has more posters needing to snark on every single thing. Yawm. Ymmv. Good thread titles lately ?

Most of the JRod stuff is about everything except JRod. Laundry, bridges, parking lots, food... just not JRod.

[AliceInFundyland]

The bridge drift is new. I'm enjoying that.

She's trendy. She's collected bored posters from all the other forums and has a handful of her own. Plus she's constantly generating content, even if it doesn't change much.

I still think people who read every post are cray cray.