Melanie Maxwell delivered Andrew

[Bethella]

there's already a thread

[dairyfreelife]

It's not a bad name but the reverse of the names and the nickname was the name of my former high school history teacher who committed suicide just two weeks ago. So a bit sad to hear that name. I didn't like the teacher myself, but it was a sad end to a short life at just 33 years old.

That said, glad he is healthy and Melanie recovers well.

[Miggy]

Unfortunately they didn't say he was healthy. They said he was struggling and needed prayers. Really hoping it's nothing major.

[treemom]

Too bad they don't realize their recklessness hurts their babies. After Nathan's self righteous screed about Scamartitan Ministries I want to point out how they are more irresponsible and costly than an adult who lands in the hospital a few times because of poorly managed diabetes. At least that person is only wrecking the health of one person.

(This could be nonsensical, apologize if it is. I had a nasty little head injury a few weeks ago and ended up needing to take some of my pain meds for it tonight and they makes me stupid and have insomnia)

[WonderingInWA]

I do wonder if their "premiums" for Scamaritan go up after each incident for which they issue a "need". I mean, seriously -- this is a repeated need for them. They keep getting pregnant and keep having high-risk pregnancies that result in hospital intervention. At what point do they stop putting out the begging bowl and/or start paying in more than the average member?

BTW, Treemom, sorry to hear about your head injury. That doesn't sound good! Heal fast!

[treemom]

I do wonder if their "premiums" for Scamaritan go up after each incident for which they issue a "need". I mean, seriously -- this is a repeated need for them. They keep getting pregnant and keep having high-risk pregnancies that result in hospital intervention. At what point do they stop putting out the begging bowl and/or start paying in more than the average member?

BTW, Treemom, sorry to hear about your head injury. That doesn't sound good! Heal fast!

Thanks, after a bumpy first week it is doing quite well. Fireworks for the last three days in the neighborhood did me in though.

[16strong]

And the Aunties are no solution to that schooling problem, they aren't qualified to teach a dog to sit, nerveless teach children reading, writing and mathematics.

I see you stopped short of naming science as a subject they will be studying. :whistle:

[uber frau]

I do wonder if their "premiums" for Scamaritan go up after each incident for which they issue a "need". I mean, seriously -- this is a repeated need for them. They keep getting pregnant and keep having high-risk pregnancies that result in hospital intervention. At what point do they stop putting out the begging bowl and/or start paying in more than the average member?

BTW, Treemom, sorry to hear about your head injury. That doesn't sound good! Heal fast!

I don't think their Scamaritan fees actually buy much more than the right to appear in Scamaritan list of beggars. I think the fees pretty much go to administration costs, not to any tangible service.

I doubt the fact that they're high risk will cost them, it might even be a positive in the eyes of the ppl they're begging from. They're, like, suffering for the Lord and all that.

I wonder what they'd do if this baby has any long term health consequenceso though. Scamaritan only pays for the care received in hospital, not for all the home or community based therapies a chronically ill or disabled child might need. I wonder if they'd seek another insurance provider (the sort who pays for birth control for loose women, or weight loss surgery for the weak-willed, or ACL repairs for those ppl who, gasp, play organised sports). Or will they accept money from the American taxpayer?

[Jana814]

I really hope this child dosen't have any long terms issues.

[MamaJunebug]

Miggy: Mileages vary. I see a loss of the spark in Abby in most photos, the chicken-egg series excepted.

The Maxwells stir thoughts that disturb me. Surely Nathan and Melanie would've tsk-tsk'ed at BigMama Junebug's untimely death due to cancer since BMJB smoked cigarettes from age 9. (She said it took her mind off how hungry she was, and I don't think she was lying. But that's not the point of this post.) Would they look with undisguised disdain at a fat person tucking into a cheeseburger, or a thin person if it were revealed that anorexia or bulimia was the cause, and not family exercise and green smoothies for breakfasts 363 days/year?.

Would they have little patience for a brain-dead individual who's that way because of a failed suicide attempt? My guess is "yes" to all the above. So why should I care that Melanie's life was in some danger, and Drew's in rather greater danger, especially since N&M make conscious decisions with every intercourse to attempt to conceive, with her obvious inborn problems in carrying to term?

And why do they continue in their ways? To take political control? AFAIK, no - they disdain politics. To save the world by out-populating the others? Partly. To provide a large family to insulate their children from the rest of the world? In large part, apparently.

So ... and this is the troubling part ... why should I give a darn what happens to Mel OR Drew?

I'm quite serious. The Maxwells, more than any cult we observe here, bring out a certain coldness in me that frankly scares me.

[kpmom]

And why do they continue in their ways? To take political control? AFAIK, no - they disdain politics. To save the world by out-populating the others? Partly. To provide a large family to insulate their children from the rest of the world? In large part, apparently.

Do you think they are sincere when they say they really believe God wants them to have as many children as he will allow them to have?

[MamaJunebug]

Do you think they are sincere when they say they really believe God wants them to have as many children as he will allow them to have?

I....think they sincerely believe that they believe this. Did that make sense?

It's like, I sincerely believe God wants me to weigh 125 again. But I exercise half as much as I should, and eat half again as much as I really need. And that's been the case for about as long as M&N have been married, so I have that in common with them.

They say they want to have as many children as God will allow them to have. God may/not be throwing out some real evidence that He/She wants them to have three healthy girls, but at ages 38 & 39 they continue to attempt to procreate against all indications that they're not meant to have many children.

I say I want to have a healthy, normal-weight body as God designed my body, and God is certainly showing me that's what She wants, as more and more of my systems react to the excess I'm carrying around, but I continue a bad diet/exercise combo.

Because I want to sit and write, and to nibble and chew, more than I want what God wants for me.

And they want more babies than it seems evident (to almost anybody around) that God wants for them.

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

[church_of_dog]

I....think they sincerely believe that they believe this. Did that make sense?

It's like, I sincerely believe God wants me to weigh 125 again. But I exercise half as much as I should, and eat half again as much as I really need. And that's been the case for about as long as M&N have been married, so I have that in common with them.

They say they want to have as many children as God will allow them to have. God may/not be throwing out some real evidence that He/She wants them to have three healthy girls, but at ages 38 & 39 they continue to attempt to procreate against all indications that they're not meant to have many children.

I say I want to have a healthy, normal-weight body as God designed my body, and God is certainly showing me that's what She wants, as more and more of my systems react to the excess I'm carrying around, but I continue a bad diet/exercise combo.

Because I want to sit and write, and to nibble and chew, more than I want what God wants for me.

And they want more babies than it seems evident (to almost anybody around) that God wants for them.

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Here's the conversation I would love to hear someone have with them:

Regular Human: God is all-powerful, right?

Maxwells: Right.

Regular Human: So God can do things that don't follow logically, right? Isn't that what a miracle is?

Maxwells: Yes, right.

Regular Human: That means that if God wanted you to have ten children, he could cause you to have ten children even if you used birth control, or even abstained entirely.

Maxwells: Yes, He could.

Regular Human: So, if God can cause things to happen the way he wants, regardless of what we do, there is no need to "leave it up to God". So why not go ahead and do things in the way that you personally prefer, based on what makes the most sense in your life, and allow your faith to reassure you that God will cause it to go his way regardless?

Maxwells: Er…

Regular Human: Actually, saying that you are "leaving it up to God" implies that you believe YOU are the one in charge and YOU have to decide to "leave it up to God" or else God would have no way to cause his will to be done. That doesn't sound very pious to me.

Maxwells: Er...

[16strong]

Here's the conversation I would love to hear someone have with them:

Regular Human: God is all-powerful, right?

Maxwells: Right.

Regular Human: So God can do things that don't follow logically, right? Isn't that what a miracle is?

Maxwells: Yes, right.

Regular Human: That means that if God wanted you to have ten children, he could cause you to have ten children even if you used birth control, or even abstained entirely.

Maxwells: Yes, He could.

Regular Human: So, if God can cause things to happen the way he wants, regardless of what we do, there is no need to "leave it up to God". So why not go ahead and do things in the way that you personally prefer, based on what makes the most sense in your life, and allow your faith to reassure you that God will cause it to go his way regardless?

Maxwells: Er…

Regular Human: Actually, saying that you are "leaving it up to God" implies that you believe YOU are the one in charge and YOU have to decide to "leave it up to God" or else God would have no way to cause his will to be done. That doesn't sound very pious to me.

Maxwells: Er...

Bravo! :clap:

[Escapefromfundiedom]

I....think they sincerely believe that they believe this. Did that make sense?

It's like, I sincerely believe God wants me to weigh 125 again. But I exercise half as much as I should, and eat half again as much as I really need. And that's been the case for about as long as M&N have been married, so I have that in common with them.

They say they want to have as many children as God will allow them to have. God may/not be throwing out some real evidence that He/She wants them to have three healthy girls, but at ages 38 & 39 they continue to attempt to procreate against all indications that they're not meant to have many children.

I say I want to have a healthy, normal-weight body as God designed my body, and God is certainly showing me that's what She wants, as more and more of my systems react to the excess I'm carrying around, but I continue a bad diet/exercise combo.

Because I want to sit and write, and to nibble and chew, more than I want what God wants for me.

And they want more babies than it seems evident (to almost anybody around) that God wants for them.

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

MJB - this is a really interesting point on fundies and child bearing. I think it partly comes from putting God in such a narrow box (gendered, male, wants women to shut up, wear dresses, etc, wants men to be manly manful men and naturally - wants everyone to have busloads of kids). They say "we will leave our family size up to God" but what they mean is "We PLAN on having a very large family of many children, conceived close together, because this, in our minds, is the only "godly" type of family there is." This is the attitude that leaves women like R. Loomis feeling bereft of purpose and hope in life when they are unable to conceive immediately after marriage and it is one that has probably driven countless women to very dark places because of infertility or pregnancy loss.

I know a person (we are not friends) who comes from an especially weird flavor of Christian fundamentalism who has built her entire worldview around this notion of a "full quiver" (meaning LOTZ OF BABIEESZ). She has struggled with a rare fertility issue where she easily gets pregnant, but it's almost impossible to stay pregnant. She has multiple living, healthy, adorable children, but she fixates on the ones she has lost, she counts the pregnancy losses as real children, refers to her and her husband as parents of "x" children (living + miscarriages), and there are a lot of other things there that are creepy. The point is...despite having a brood of beautiful, living children, her life to her is about loss. It's about her inability to have the "full quiver" of children she thought God wanted her to have. Instead of opening her mind to the possibility that maybe her beliefs about what God wants for family size ( :angry-banghead: ) are just plain wrong, and actually incredibly dangerous in her case...She just continues. It makes me CRAAAZY when I see people like this talk like they're pro-life. It defies all logic and reason to say "We are pro-life" and the repeatedly get pregnant knowing that that pregnancy has such incredibly high odds of resulting in a miscarriage. Issues of when life begins aside, if you believe that life begins at conception, you are essentially signing your child's death warrant when you conceive knowing you will likely lose that pregnancy. And when you look at how much grief each loss causes, and what it must be life for her kids to grow up in that environment - always in the shadow of babies that didn't make it...heartbreaking. :(

And Melanie, with each pregnancy risking her own life and the future stability of her daughters' lives, in the name of some religious calling to have lots of babies...I hope that someone puts it to her in those terms. She has three healthy children and a very clear pattern when it comes to what pregnancy does to her body. At what point do the lives of her already-born children get to have enough value to say "This is enough. We will be thankful for what we have and do everything we can do do right by the children God has already given us." When Christians talk about God's will..why is it that so often they seem to ignore ALL THE GIANT signposts?!

Fundamentalism is a dangerous sickness.

/end rant

I hope baby Andrew lives and thrives and has his mother alive and thriving as long as possible.

[ljohnson2006]

I hope that Nathan and Melanie stop testing God and having babies. Her body can't handle it. Enjoy the four healthy kids you have.

[Jana814]

I hope that Nathan and Melanie stop testing God and having babies. Her body can't handle it. Enjoy the four healthy kids you have.

Same here!

[usmcmom]

Escapefromfundiedom said:

"...And Melanie, with each pregnancy risking her own life and the future stability of her daughters' lives, in the name of some religious calling to have lots of babies...I hope that someone puts it to her in those terms. She has three healthy children and a very clear pattern when it comes to what pregnancy does to her body. At what point do the lives of her already-born children get to have enough value to say "This is enough. We will be thankful for what we have and do everything we can do do right by the children God has already given us." When Christians talk about God's will..why is it that so often they seem to ignore ALL THE GIANT signposts?!

Fundamentalism is a dangerous sickness.

/end rant

I hope baby Andrew lives and thrives and has his mother alive and thriving as long as possible."

*****

I couldn't agree more with you on this. How can they not realize the fear and chaos they are bringing into their children's lives each time Melanie has to go on bedrest or enter the hospital? They are so obsessed with bringing NEW children into the world that they completely overlook the toll this is taking on their living children; not to mention the risk of leaving them motherless if they lose Melanie the next time. Abby is definitely old enough to have memories of mommy alwasy being in bed or away at the hospital because another new baby is coming. That will be a very vivid memory those girls have of their mother - every two years, she was unavailable to them for months at a time because she kept getting pregnant.

I wonder, though; if the Maxwells see this as normal. Evidently, Teri was not well enough to be completely present for her kids, either.

I've said this before, but I really think fundie husbands care less about "letting God decide family size" and more about letting everybody know just how "manly" they are by getting their wives pregnant every year. Clearly Nathan would rather show off his virility to his fundie peers than take steps to preserve his wife's life and be sure his children grow up with a mother.

[VVV]

It seems to me that God doesn't want them to keep having babies, and they keep thwarting his will.

[browngrl]

I think the proportion of fundies - men and women - who would put their religious beliefs above the health and welfare of their women is considerably higher than in the general population. Their entire religion is geared to focusing on the man. The women is to submit. She is to set aside her needs for that of her husband (first) and chldren (second). The blunt truth of it is that women DO NOT matter as much as men in fundy culture. They can dance around it all they want but there it is.

So I would be entirely unsurprised if Melanie continued to try for more children. If she died - her husband would remarry or someone like Sarah would step up to look after the children. The saddest part for me is that the women in this culture just accept this as normal and right.

On the plus side: based purely on statistics - a baby with a gestational age of 35 weeks should do well

[fundiefan]

They'll birth as many babies as their god gives them but scientists will save the lives of those babies and Melanie, despite god's will being unhealthy pregnancies and ill health for mother and child. If it's truly all up to god, stay out of the NICU and all that scientific interference in god's will.

If, however, many babies = feeling super special, shut up, procreate as you wish regardless of any obstacle your god puts in your way and rely on the very people you vilify to keep you pregnant and keep that baby alive.

[Jana814]

Has anyone else read their latest post! The last line bothered me cause of the "man of G-d" thing!

[kpmom]

I....think they sincerely believe that they believe this. Did that make sense?

It's like, I sincerely believe God wants me to weigh 125 again. But I exercise half as much as I should, and eat half again as much as I really need. And that's been the case for about as long as M&N have been married, so I have that in common with them.

They say they want to have as many children as God will allow them to have. God may/not be throwing out some real evidence that He/She wants them to have three healthy girls, but at ages 38 & 39 they continue to attempt to procreate against all indications that they're not meant to have many children.

I say I want to have a healthy, normal-weight body as God designed my body, and God is certainly showing me that's what She wants, as more and more of my systems react to the excess I'm carrying around, but I continue a bad diet/exercise combo.

Because I want to sit and write, and to nibble and chew, more than I want what God wants for me.

And they want more babies than it seems evident (to almost anybody around) that God wants for them.

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

You had mentioned several reasons why you believe fundies have so many children, but fundies themselves would tell you they do it in order to obey God.

I doubt it's that simple, but, as you say, they probably believe they believe that.

[kpmom]

Has anyone else read their latest post! The last line bothered me cause of the "man of G-d" thing!

The man of God thing isn't so surprising. I'm sure all fundies wish that for theirs sons and hope their sons think that way.

I was offended that Drew is Mommy and Daddy's (or is that Daddy's and Mommy's) special gift from God 'cause he is their first son.

I certainly hope all of their children are special gifts regardless of gender.

[SPHASH]

I've been out of town and just read the news. I pray baby Drew pulls through and maybe once he hits 18 escapes the cult and takes his sisters and cousins with him.