Bates Courtship

[Convicted Blossom]

I guess age matters less once you reach your twenties, but I've never wanted to go out with someone more than five years older than me. The age difference with these two wouldn't bother me as much if it basically wasn't an arranged marriage for aging virgin children. I'm sorry, but that's the only way I see fundie courtships.

This.

Olivia at Fresh Modesty 'seems' relatively normal because she's pretty, wears trendy clothes. The dark haired wife at the Maxwells 'seems' more grounded and down-to-earth but what are these people really? They're fundies absorbed in their narrow outlook, arranged marriages, chaperoned courtships, with adult children cut off from normal social interaction and a dangerous outlook on society.

Chad looks happy because he loves Erin? Maybe. He's 25 and he's going to get some sex at last -- I think that may explain his happiness. He hasn't got a job but he's revamping the cottage on Mommy and Daddy's property? Gosh now where might he and Erin live after they get married? Could it be ....

Erin's happy? Well of course she is, she's been brought up to get married and breed. How many in her family? 17? Yep she's happy, she'll be out of there soon, she's got her very own headship to submit to and she won't end up being a Sarah Maxwell. The relief must be incalcuable.

[infooverload]

While we worry about these fundy families I find the more mainstream churches a little scarier. Think about how many of these fundies started out in regular churches. Also a lot of the mainstream churches pimp the fundy ideals just with different packaging and branding. I mean how many churches sell the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye or have members post of facebook 30 days of prayer for your husband? The whole thing is rather nauseating and bunch of rubish. Side note I totally had Diana's voice from the British series Waiting for God in my head on the last line.

[Viola]

New post on the Bates blog about their Christmas with the Paines.

Anyway reading the comments on the second courtship post, found what Kelly wrote in reply to someone who asked if they were "dating":

Dear Lynn,

They are not dating in the “traditional†sense of the word, because that often connotates just going out with someone…Traditional dating might include going out for fun, without any future desire to pursue a serious relationship. So, the idea of dating for fun until you find the “right one†is considered normal. In the course of a person’s life, they could easily have dated 20-30 people or more before settling down to get married.

In courtship, or “dating with a purpose,†there are goals. Usually, there is a desire to put God as the center of their relationship, to maintain purity, to seek direction for marrying this particular person, and to avoid the routine pattern of countless relationships and break ups that often occur. So there is a little more seriousness of purpose and commitment. I would say, it is closer to “pre-engagement†than just the broad meaning of dating.

In Chad and Erin’s case, they have already expressed to us their desire to get married after Erin completes her college, but this is a time for them to learn about each other on a deeper level of friendship and communication. They’re learning about each other’s pasts, their family life, their goals, their ministry, etc. They are learning to express their feelings, their hurts, their fears and insecurities, their weaknesses. They are learning how to show that they care for one another. They are just simply enjoying each other and their time together.

This stage was preceded by getting to know each other over the past year and a half. They’ve heard each other’s testimonies. They’ve seen each other’s strengths and weaknesses. They’ve learned about each other’s personalities and have spent time with both families.

When they get engaged; it will be a time of business and plans for a wedding. There will be a great deal of prepartion and work…. so they are wanting to especially enjoy this courtship stage that is less pressured, with less obligations and deadlines. For them, this time of courtship is a time of wholesome romance and fun!It’s a time to spend growing close to to the family. It’s a time to do ministry together. It’s a time to laugh and cry together. They write poems, sing songs, do Bible study, go to special places, communicate with each other, and dream together!Love, Kelly

So they are planning to get married after Erin finishes college.

I like that they are using the dating-with-a-purpose time to have "romance and fun," as Kelly puts it.

[Witsec7]

New post on the Bates blog about their Christmas with the Paines.

Anyway reading the comments on the second courtship post, found what Kelly wrote in reply to someone who asked if they were "dating":

...

So they are planning to get married after Erin finishes college.

I like that they are using the dating-with-a-purpose time to have "romance and fun," as Kelly puts it.

You'll never hear of the Maxhell's talking about romance and fun.

[Miggy]

Maybe I am really stupid but I still fail to see the difference between dating-wth-a-purpose and what I did.

I had a male friend, we got really close, he asked me to be his girlfriend, we had a great time and although not actually focused on marriage neither of us thought of it as a short term thing either, we did kiss and hold hands and a few other things but did not sleep together, things fell apart and we broke up.

I get that the kissing & touching doesn't pass fundy rules and that he asked me not Daddy but in every other way, doesn't this meet their criteria? This was the pattern I followed throughout high school as did all my friends. Does this mean we dated-with-a-purpose without realising it or that fundies are actually doing what everyone else does but don't want to admit it.

[Witsec7]

Maybe I am really stupid but I still fail to see the difference between dating-wth-a-purpose and what I did.

I had a male friend, we got really close, he asked me to be his girlfriend, we had a great time and although not actually focused on marriage neither of us thought of it as a short term thing either, we did kiss and hold hands and a few other things but did not sleep together, things fell apart and we broke up.

I get that the kissing & touching doesn't pass fundy rules and that he asked me not Daddy but in every other way, doesn't this meet their criteria? This was the pattern I followed throughout high school as did all my friends. Does this mean we dated-with-a-purpose without realising it or that fundies are actually doing what everyone else does but don't want to admit it.

According to Kelli Bates you will be dating at least 29-30 more men like this fellow....

[Miggy]

Zach broke up with Sarah and Kelly said it was a learning experience. If I repeated this with 29-30 men wouldn't that just make me more experienced? :lol:

[infooverload]

Miggy for some reason I was under the impression Sarah broke up with Zach. Also would be interesting to know the reason behind the break up. After all aren't they all about ministering and teaching others, wouldn't this make a good oportunity for Zach to minister other young men about what went wrong.

[Miggy]

You are right, it was Sarah who called of the courtship.

I am sure I have read that in ATI (I'm not sure about other fundy groups) the courtship teaching is that the man approaches the father and then, with his permission, the daughter. As he is the one who has initiated it he is not allowed to call it off. Only the lady or her father can call it off. I can't remember where I read it. Perhaps someone else can provide more details ...

As far as Sarah and Zach, I don't believe either family ever gave a reason. I have two guesses. (1) Sarah's family were very close and she had a very important part in her families bluegrass band. Marrying Zach would mean leaving all that and moving to Tennessee. Any girl in that situation is going to miss her family but did Sarah also worry about having to leave the band? Did she worry about whether her siblings would be able to continue without her? I think it is possible she thought about these things and chose family over Zach. (2) Zach was a mess when he asked her to court and continued to look awkward and nervous in future meetings. Maybe Sarah thought he wasn't really ready for marriage or she just plain didn't like him.

[Viola]

she probably plain didn't like him, as you put it :lol:

she never looked happy or comfortable in the pictures with zach, whereas erin and chad actually do.

[HereticHick]

I think the Gothard courtship model is an unrealistic failure. They've rejected the idea of modern dating, but have been unwilling to embrace models of arranged/introduced marriages that do work in other faith/ethnic communities. In spite of enormous pressure to marry & start propagating early--there are so many prominent families with multiple unmarried children over 21--including the Bates and Duggars, who (to put it crassly) have been able to exhibit their eligible children to a national tv audience. I'm only partly joking here--probably ever Jewish, Indian, Pakistani and Persian friend of mine has a nosy grandmother who does a WAY better job of identifying potential suitors than these ATI headships do. : ) For a lot of my friends from more socially conservative backgrounds, they have a lot of people in their lives sniffing out potential matches for them--their grandmothers, their aunties, their iman's wife, their rabbi, their boss, their boss's wife, their corner grocer, their brothers, their college roommates, etc. And of course, there are the professional matchmakers (often older women).

Buth Gothardism rejects all that--only the headship can identify suitors, and never mind that they are busy supporting their families. Women can't be trusted to find suitors for their children/grandchildren/nieces and nephews--even older women who have time to keep their eyes and ears open for good catches! Children are discouraged from having friends (who might be potential matches, or related to potential matches), and families often attend small home churches, rather than larger congregations that might offer matchmaking possibilities.

If the fundy crowd really wants to marry off their kids, they need to turn over the job to the grandmas and the aunties!! : )

[nokidsmom]

she probably plain didn't like him, as you put it :lol:

she never looked happy or comfortable in the pictures with zach, whereas erin and chad actually do.

Agreed that she didn't look comfortable in the pictures though Zach seemed to be very into her. But I dunno. She did go along with the courtship for a number of months and Zach did accompany the family on a band tour, so maybe she was really trying to give him a chance. I am thinking if she really didn't like him, I don't think he would have been able to tag along. She would have probably come up with some reason for it. I still wonder if Zach's prospects played a role and she was not going to give up her music career with the family band for it.

[Ellimenopy]

HereticHick, I'm so glad that you said that. What's always horrified me about courtship isn't the arranged marriages, which work well in other cultures, but the unrealistic expectations that they place on those marriages. In arranged marriage cultures, marriages are socioeconomic and political, and still remarkably stable, but they don't encourage the same kind of romantic notions of marriage that fundies do. I've had Indian friends that have had arranged marriages, and they are perfectly happy, but they went into it with eyes wide open and with literally generations of experience to draw from. They were explicitly told that they would probably not be madly in love with their husbands; it was enough that they respected each other and were moderately attracted. In contrast, the fundie expectation of romantic love is that it will be all-consuming and passionate, of the Song of Solomon sort. The problem comes in that the type of young men who are financial good catches (not that they do a particularly good job of preparing them for that either, but that's a different rant), are not passionate lover-types. No wonder that their young women are underwhelmed and the young men are overwhelmed and there's not much actually happening!

I'm not sure if I wrote that out very well, but that's part of what I see happening - I used to see the expectations as mainly oppressive to young women, but now I see them as oppressive to both of them.

[laura oz]

OT Someone here linked to wtffundiefamilies.tumblr and I liked it. Now it's gone. Anyone know why?

[persuas1ve]

I just don't understand how Chad is a good catch. I mean, he's not bad looking, but he's unemployed. I know the Gothard m.o. is to be self-employed, but with no income coming in how will he be able to support a wife let alone "blessings?"

[Queen Of Hearts]

I just don't understand how Chad is a good catch. I mean, he's not bad looking, but he's unemployed. I know the Gothard m.o. is to be self-employed, but with no income coming in how will he be able to support a wife let alone "blessings?"

This is actually one of the things I like about this match. Chad and Erin have known each other for two years, they seem happy in the pictures, and Chad speaks respectfully about Erin. The fact that he seems to not be employed means this likely wasn't a fundy match-making scheme by someone behind the scenes - parents, Gothard, etc. I think Erin and Chad truly fell in love with each other and chose on their own to enter this relationship. As for finances, maybe Chad could make a living flipping houses or doing construction.

Call me a romantic at heart!

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

I do think that they look like a happy couple, and I hoping everything works out for them.

On a more snarkable note, Kelly has said that their two families have already experienced sweet, sweet fellowship. Erin and Chad's hearts are being knit together. We must reverently pray they make it to the marriage altar with their purity intact, or I am afraid they will be left with Swiss-cheesed hearts.

[notachance]

I do think that they look like a happy couple, and I hoping everything works out for them.

On a more snarkable note, Kelly has said that their two families have already experienced sweet, sweet fellowship. Erin and Chad's hearts are being knit together. We must reverently pray they make it to the marriage altar with their purity intact, or I am afraid they will be left with Swiss-cheesed hearts.

is the phrase "hearts knit together" too fundie for normal human use? because i sort of love it, in a song of solomon uber-romantic kind of way, and would really like to think that my appreciation does not mean that i share some sort of language affinity with gothardites...

[skinch]

Kelly's put a new post up.

When the Bateses and Paines were at the Duggars' over Christmas, Erin and Chad posed - as a joke - with Josiah holding a tape marking six inches between them.

Are they mocking Kristina, themselves, or we snarkers :lol: ? (Dare I credit them with any subtlety?)

Although I'm sure mocking isn't the Gothardian word for it.

Apologies for not knowing how to post a copy of the photo here without creating a trackback. I have no tech smarts.

[xReems]

Oh mylanta Michelle's hair! It's like she just woke up from a nap and said "Welp, there we go." Also, is it just me or has she aged even more since the last picture we saw of her?

[slickcat79]

You are right, it was Sarah who called of the courtship.

I am sure I have read that in ATI (I'm not sure about other fundy groups) the courtship teaching is that the man approaches the father and then, with his permission, the daughter. As he is the one who has initiated it he is not allowed to call it off. Only the lady or her father can call it off. I can't remember where I read it. Perhaps someone else can provide more details ...

As far as Sarah and Zach, I don't believe either family ever gave a reason. I have two guesses. (1) Sarah's family were very close and she had a very important part in her families bluegrass band. Marrying Zach would mean leaving all that and moving to Tennessee. Any girl in that situation is going to miss her family but did Sarah also worry about having to leave the band? Did she worry about whether her siblings would be able to continue without her? I think it is possible she thought about these things and chose family over Zach. (2) Zach was a mess when he asked her to court and continued to look awkward and nervous in future meetings. Maybe Sarah thought he wasn't really ready for marriage or she just plain didn't like him.

That used to be the way of things, when courtship/arranged marriage was common in Western culture. If you were any kind of true gentleman, you were NOT allowed to break off your courtship/engagement without some serious social consequences at the very least. It sounds like something Vision Forum would favor, given their irrational fascination with upper-class history.

[laura oz]

Does anyone else hear "sweet sweet fellowship" in Barry White's voice every single time they read it? :lol:

[slickcat79]

Does anyone else hear "sweet sweet fellowship" in Barry White's voice every single time they read it? :lol:

More like Isaac Hayes/Chef :?

[Queen Of Hearts]

I think I would like the Bates much more if they didn't spend so much time with the Duggars! And yes, I agree with the comments about Michelle's hair.

On a positive note, I do think it is kind of cool that they can play 4 square in the house! :)

As for the 6" ruler, I think they likely thought it was "funny." Not snarking on anyone else but just bad fundy humor.

[Mela99]

More like Isaac Hayes/Chef :?

"I'm gonna make sweet fellowship to ya, woman, gonna lay you down on the prayer shawls... I can't wait to head your ship and pray over my blue balls...."