Bates Courtship

[Hisey]

I suspect Chad may be unemployed/sporadically employed. Kelly is very vague about where they will live. If he had a job in, say, Cinncinnati, then she'd be saying, "They will live in Cinncinnati." Instead, she says things like, "I'm sure his job will play a large role in where thye are going to live, along with finding a good church." To me, that sounds like someone who doesn't have a job. Which is unfortunate for Erin.

[Buzzard]

I suspect Chad may be unemployed/sporadically employed. Kelly is very vague about where they will live. If he had a job in, say, Cinncinnati, then she'd be saying, "They will live in Cinncinnati." Instead, she says things like, "I'm sure his job will play a large role in where thye are going to live, along with finding a good church." To me, that sounds like someone who doesn't have a job. Which is unfortunate for Erin.

Maybe they're shopping around an idea for them to have their own show. His "job" can be TLC sideshow.

[gilora]

They will probably live in a rental owned by Dr. Paine. Can't let the kids get too independent.

[SisiL78]

Another thread mentioned that Chad's father is Dr. Charles Stephen Paine. There's a Dr. Charles Stephen Paine who resides at 918 Brook Place, a mere 0.6 mils from 707 West Ogden where the IBLP headquarters is. The family blog mentions the father leaving for IL to work in ministry for Gothard. Goodness knows what he does there, but I'd suspect he wouldn't have given up making a good living to work as office help for the cult leader. He must have some super secret speshul clinic for ATI idiots or something. I'm sure he's helping Gothard sell snake oil and whatever else to the gullible nutjobs that come to ATI. I'm sure mom pretends to "not work" but uses her training as an RN to continue whatever weirdo b.s. they are doing for Gothard.

Meanwhile, I've rarely heard of a family where Dad was a doctor and none of the kids went to real college. My fiance's father was an oncologist and while none of his children became doctors (which is somewhat unusual) they have 7 degrees between the 3 of them... almost 8 once fiance finishes his

[Sweetpea1]

'Nuff said

That is spectacular.

[micatite]

That looks like one of the oversized wigs from the 'Beach Blanket Babylon' show in San Francisco, or from the musical 'Hairspray'.

[HereticHick]

According to the family update recently posted on the 12Paines website, Chad is unemployed.

"2012 seems a bit of a blur to say the least. August found us moving again. We are still in Oklahoma, just a little further southwest. It has been a slight transition to move from some of the very large homes that we have been able to stay in to a 1200 sq.ft. trailer...Chad…came home with us in August. He is now reconstructing the “Little House†on the property. We had just about decided to destroy the Little House (foundation falling apart, rat infested, termite damaged, leaking roof and filled with trash)…there was no hope til Chad came along. Now he is ready to do drywall. He basically built a home from foundation up. It is like when God takes our lives…good for nothing, ready to be destroyed and He invests all and gives all to redeem us and make us totally new from the depths of our being…giving us new hope, greater value, usefulness etc…Chad will be leaving to Bolivia to work on some construction projects for an orphanage at the end of this month. He is praying and seeking the Lord regarding work opportunities. BUT MOST EXCITING is………….Chad is courting a beautiful young lady who loves the Lord……………….Miss Erin Bates!!"

I find it hilarious (and sad) that for all the Quiverfull Fundy pontifications about "old fashioned values" and demonizing the educated "liberal elite" for being moochers who don't know the value of hard work--this unemployed guy, who may not even have a GED-- is considered praiseworthy courting material. Get a job and stop mooching off your parents, buddy! : )

At least Erin can give piano lessons!!

[Coconut Flan]

That is so sad to me. Mr Paine could be using his medical degree and experience and helping people while earning a decent living to support his family AND give to others. Gothard has a lot to answer for when he reaches those proverbial pearly gates.

Poor Erin courting an uneducated, unemployed young man. At least she may have the ability to support herself and the upcoming children at least minimally by giving piano lessons.

[HereticHick]

The Gothard movement is doomed if they won't educate their children (even at "secular" trade schools), won't let them join the military, won't let their unmarried sons move out & work (except at ATI "ministries") won't let their women (even unmarried ones) truly work outside the home, and believe the only acceptable work is self-employment. This is not a sustainable economic model. The ability to memorize a bunch of bible verses doesn't put food on the table.

Even the Amish & related faiths let their daughters work at markets/produce stands/tourist restaurants, etc. And the Amish have a "brand" (in food/furniture/crafts) that the rest of the world wants to pay premium prices for.

Chad, the Maxwell boys and all their 20 something fundy friends should be up in the booming petro-economy of North Dakota or Alberta, working hard, saving their cash to buy a house & attract a wife. But oh no, can't let them out of mommy & daddy's sight.

[tropaka]

Haven't we talked about Dr. Paine before here on FJ? Seems he'd said something stupid or was promoting something stupid - wait, of course he did, he presents for ATI.

[nokidsmom]

According to the family update recently posted on the 12Paines website, Chad is unemployed.

"2012 seems a bit of a blur to say the least. August found us moving again. We are still in Oklahoma, just a little further southwest. It has been a slight transition to move from some of the very large homes that we have been able to stay in to a 1200 sq.ft. trailer...Chad…came home with us in August. He is now reconstructing the “Little House†on the property. We had just about decided to destroy the Little House (foundation falling apart, rat infested, termite damaged, leaking roof and filled with trash)…there was no hope til Chad came along. Now he is ready to do drywall. He basically built a home from foundation up. It is like when God takes our lives…good for nothing, ready to be destroyed and He invests all and gives all to redeem us and make us totally new from the depths of our being…giving us new hope, greater value, usefulness etc…Chad will be leaving to Bolivia to work on some construction projects for an orphanage at the end of this month. He is praying and seeking the Lord regarding work opportunities. BUT MOST EXCITING is………….Chad is courting a beautiful young lady who loves the Lord……………….Miss Erin Bates!!"

I find it hilarious (and sad) that for all the Quiverfull Fundy pontifications about "old fashioned values" and demonizing the educated "liberal elite" for being moochers who don't know the value of hard work--this unemployed guy, who may not even have a GED-- is considered praiseworthy courting material. Get a job and stop mooching off your parents, buddy! : )

At least Erin can give piano lessons!!

So if this courtship pans out, Erin will move from being under one unemployed /sporadically employed headship (Gil) to another (Chad). Seems like economic instability / inability to provide /relying on others like TLC and Lawson is so much the norm for the Bates family that they wouldn't blink an eye over having an unemployed prospective son-in-law. God will provide, ya know.

[Hisey]

I apologize if this has already been posted, but here is Chad's view of the courtship:

http://chadsperspective.blogspot.com/20 ... riend.html

But I am especially grateful for one friend that has become more than just a friend to me! This friend has not only been faithful, genuine, wise in counsel, sacrificial, motivating me to do my best, but SHE is so much more to me!! She is truly the greatest blessing in my life! I am so honored, privileged, and grateful to be courting Miss Erin Bates, my forever friend.

For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 84:11

I met Erin at a banquet two years ago. During the past two years, I have gotten to know her family, friends, and more about her; I knew in my heart that this was the Girl that I desired to pursue for the rest of my life. I fell in love with Erin. My family was able to spend time getting to know their family during occasional visits. We agreed as a family that the Bates were one of the sweetest and most encouraging families that we had ever met! We hit it off so well! The summer of 2011 was when I really knew that Erin was the Girl for me. But there were areas in my life that I had kept for myself and not surrendered to the Lord. God knew I needed to grow in these areas and keep Him preeminent in my heart and life. Erin was the person that really challenged me at this critical point in my life to do whatever it took to be ALL I could be for the Lord. We spent about a year seeking the Lord, serving in Ministries, and spending time with our families. This past fall, I was able to spend some more extensive time getting know the Bates. We made so many memories together! I asked Mr. Bates if I could have his permission to court Erin…and he said he thought that might be a good idea. =) LOL I was so excited! I decided to make a surprise visit to Tennessee and ask Erin if I could court her… She actually said, “YES!†=) I was so happy! God has answered so many prayers, and He has made so many hopes and dreams become a reality!! I am truly grateful for all of His goodness!

Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him:

God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Psalm 62:8

As Erin and I seek the Lord for His best for the future and what He has for Us, please keep us in your prayers! I look forward to updating y’all on what He is doing! It’s been an adventure for sure...and I think it will always be an adventure! =) I love Erin and I am so grateful for her love, patience, and trust in the Lord. She truly has challenged and motivated me to be the man that I should be! I am so grateful that our paths crossed!! We are both looking forward to what God has for us together in the future!

[VooDooChild]

The Gothard movement is doomed if they won't educate their children (even at "secular" trade schools), won't let them join the military, won't let their unmarried sons move out & work (except at ATI "ministries") won't let their women (even unmarried ones) truly work outside the home, and believe the only acceptable work is self-employment. This is not a sustainable economic model. The ability to memorize a bunch of bible verses doesn't put food on the table.

Even the Amish & related faiths let their daughters work at markets/produce stands/tourist restaurants, etc. And the Amish have a "brand" (in food/furniture/crafts) that the rest of the world wants to pay premium prices for.

Chad, the Maxwell boys and all their 20 something fundy friends should be up in the booming petro-economy of North Dakota or Alberta, working hard, saving their cash to buy a house & attract a wife. But oh no, can't let them out of mommy & daddy's sight.

Pretty much this.

I don't understand how these fundies think they will last in there current economic model......oh wait...God will provide. It makes me sad for these people that they never experience the self-satisfaction of a job well done, or the experience of making something happen on your own.

[Miggy]

I had read those comments by Chad before and what really stood out to me was his use of "friend".

Fundies don't usually seem to value friendship. Siblings are suppose to be each others friends rather than allowing outsiders in. Adults are expected to find a partner who provides income, an umbrella of protection and run the family bible study or who will cook, clean and have babies. Love is talked about a bit, relationship with God all the time, sex far too much but friendship between the couple, never.

My husband is my best friend. I hope Erin & Chad can find that.

[Jana814]

I hope they can be happy. Not sure how Erin will be away from her family.

[EmiGirl]

Fundies don't usually seem to value friendship.

Because they don't have friends outside of their siblings. That way no new "ideas" get introduced. I know I usually got into more trouble when I had friends around. We would build on each others ideas and then encourage each other to act on them. I guess only being friends with siblings helps keep out outside (read:evil) ideas.

The bad part is when a family gets out of the super-fundie world like my husband's family did the older children are so socially inept that they have issues forming relationships. Out of the first three children in my husband's family, my sister-in-law is the only one that knows how to relate to other people in social situations. The husband is getting better slowly, but he'll never be "normal."

[fakepigtails73]

Something that just popped in my mind. :? It may seem very dumb, but hey...

One would think with the Bates and the Duggars that they would have, in early 2013, more than one married son (Josh D) and one daughter in a courtship (Erin B). For two families with 37 kids altogether (is it 37 ? I'm terrible in maths)...What's going on? Granted, there is no contest, but still.

How many adult children do the Duggars have? And the Bates? :think:

These are two mega-religious families that love to hog the cameras selling a life of having tons of kids on one salary. "Family, family, family". "Birth control is a sin, abortion is murder, marriage is the most important thing, etc." So why, if for JB and M or G and K having a truckload of kids is so important,is that out of the 37 children only one is married ? Not counting the under 18s, obviously...I would guess that the Bates and Duggars daughters are seen as "excellent catch" by other ATI families, while the boys are seen as hard-working but dumb. (I hate writing that last sentence re: the girls :doh: it's almost like I'm talking about objects instead of women. Gosh I hope so much that one of them runs away!)

I remember in early 2009 watching Josh and Anna's wedding episode telling my boyfriend that 5 yrs from now at least 6 of them will be married (not necessarily to each other, I think that they see each other more like cousins than potential mates, imho). So why the wait? It's not like they have busy careers or are at college getting degrees...Only one girl, Erin, in her 20s, is in a relationship.

If I was writing about any ordinary North-American young adult I'd say that it's normal not to be 22 and married, but because of their extreme lifestyle I think something weird is going on. Look at other ATI families like the Kellers (Anna's parents): all adults children are in relationships. Heck, a few even fled the mega-fundie lifestyle!

[Boogalou]

I hope they can be happy. Not sure how Erin will be away from her family.

That has always made me wonder about people who practice courtship, especially when Anna Duggar first got married. These women are live with their families their entire life, have very little social interaction outside of it, and really spend very little time at all apart from their families (I guess the exception to this would be going on Journey to the Heart). Then, all of a sudden, they are expected to get married and often move several states away so that they see their family very rarely. Since some people are better at this type of thing than others I suspect that many of these young women would get incredibly homesick in their first months, maybe even years, of marriage. To be yanked away from everything you have ever known with only very limited visits back must be incredibly difficult for some people.

[Mama Mia]

^^^^ the above is what made me think of the Duggar's as anything other than the super nice image they show on TV. It seemed so weird that they promote a lifestyle that encourages early marriage, yet NONE of those girls were married ?

After reading more about it, it makes more sense to me - if you are going to be popping out babies for your entire fertile married life, and can't even use NFP to help space the births, than I would think those young adults would WANT to wait until they are mid to late twenties to actually get married.

Huge difference in having to raise the dozen plus children that they would likely have if they had twenty or more fertile years , and the 5-7 that are more probable with good fertility starting late 20's/early 30's. Particularly as women are at their most fertile in their early 20's, so are more likely to pack in the yearly babies during that time.

Maybe they are much smarter than we think !

[sunshine]

That has always made me wonder about people who practice courtship, especially when Anna Duggar first got married. These women are live with their families their entire life, have very little social interaction outside of it, and really spend very little time at all apart from their families (I guess the exception to this would be going on Journey to the Heart). Then, all of a sudden, they are expected to get married and often move several states away so that they see their family very rarely. Since some people are better at this type of thing than others I suspect that many of these young women would get incredibly homesick in their first months, maybe even years, of marriage. To be yanked away from everything you have ever known with only very limited visits back must be incredibly difficult for some people.

It appears by the girls going away to Journey to the Heart prepares them when they move out. Also, the Duggar girls do travel without parents so they get experiences that way as well.

[sparkles]

It appears by the girls going away to Journey to the Heart prepares them when they move out. Also, the Duggar girls do travel without parents so they get experiences that way as well.

In Journey to the Heart they're surrounded by umpteen other girls and following a set routine. Mission trips are also closely supervised. There doesn't seem to be any opportunity for these girls to function independently, make decisions and even learn how to keep themselves occupied and productive when they're on their own. They're trained to raise babies, homeschool, keep house and so on, but even if they get pregnant on their wedding night, there's still 9 months of essentially nothing to do until the first little blessing arrives. So what DO they do all day? There's only so often you can clean the house and bury your nose in the bible waiting for the headship to come home so you can serve him. Cut off from family, unable to make friends, poorly and/or narrowly educated, strict limitations on reading, television and other forms of entertainment--the silence must be deafening and the isolation terrifying. No wonder so many of them blog and no wonder so many of those blogs sound so lonely and depressed as their authors protest loudly and often that they're happy, happy, happy and their way is the only way. The ladies doth protest too much.

[laura oz]

In Journey to the Heart they're surrounded by umpteen other girls and following a set routine. Mission trips are also closely supervised. There doesn't seem to be any opportunity for these girls to function independently, make decisions and even learn how to keep themselves occupied and productive when they're on their own. They're trained to raise babies, homeschool, keep house and so on, but even if they get pregnant on their wedding night, there's still 9 months of essentially nothing to do until the first little blessing arrives. So what DO they do all day? There's only so often you can clean the house and bury your nose in the bible waiting for the headship to come home so you can serve him. Cut off from family, unable to make friends, poorly and/or narrowly educated, strict limitations on reading, television and other forms of entertainment--the silence must be deafening and the isolation terrifying. No wonder so many of them blog and no wonder so many of those blogs sound so lonely and depressed as their authors protest loudly and often that they're happy, happy, happy and their way is the only way. The ladies doth protest too much.

Well said :clap: :clap: :clap:

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

^^^^ the above is what made me think of the Duggar's as anything other than the super nice image they show on TV. It seemed so weird that they promote a lifestyle that encourages early marriage, yet NONE of those girls were married ?

After reading more about it, it makes more sense to me - if you are going to be popping out babies for your entire fertile married life, and can't even use NFP to help space the births, than I would think those young adults would WANT to wait until they are mid to late twenties to actually get married.

Huge difference in having to raise the dozen plus children that they would likely have if they had twenty or more fertile years , and the 5-7 that are more probable with good fertility starting late 20's/early 30's. Particularly as women are at their most fertile in their early 20's, so are more likely to pack in the yearly babies during that time.

Maybe they are much smarter than we think !

I think a lot of it also has to do with the whole "our little girl" thought process. It's really easy to think "Oh I really agree with these thoughts for myself and my spouse, and I really would like as many grandchildren as god will grant me." It's really hard to come to terms with the fact that your child is now at that age where they are able to reproduce. I think it's just as much a decision for the children to not want that many kids as it for the parents to not want to marry off their children, whom they'd rather stay "little" and "innocent" forever. You send them off into the world to procreate and they're no longer your "little girls" or "innocent children" anymore.

You see it with "worldly" parents as well. This idea that their children cant date until their 30. Or my favorite, "No dating until you're married!" You just dont want to admit that you've all come to that age already.

[nokidsmom]

Well said :clap: :clap: :clap:

+1. I don't follow too many of these blogs but I have followed a few and the one thing I noticed between the "happy, happy, joy, joy" talk is a lot of loneliness and screaming boredom. Sometimes I think they blog not just to pass time plus getting from contact from comments, but mainly to convince themselves that life is so great.

[Jana814]

I just looked @ the Bates blog, it's seems as although both families r impressing this new courtship. I really hope that they can be happy together.