Jinjer 59: Cooking with Prepared Spice Mix

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Wow. Just wow.

[neuroticcat]

—she talks about having kids taking a long time to deconstruct - that she thought any kind of birth control was abortion and that she assumed she would have 19.

Also that clothing standards were a very hard thing to move past b/c the letter of the law was so precise. 

She makes the distinction that she’s not deconstructing (with a little dug at Joshua Harris) but that she’s disentangling. 

—She talks about how she sometimes finds herself leaning into wanting a parenting system for raising her daughters since that’s what she was raised with but she knows that doesn’t  go to a good place.

—at the very end she says Gothard was like a grandfather and so she didn’t believe it for many years that he had “fallen” 

**sorry for all the typos in this - on my phone**

Edited January 26, 2023 by neuroticcat

[neuroticcat]

No questions in current status with her family.

Lots of things I found interesting in the interview. Jinger talks about learning to base her life on what she found herself in the Word of God. I think for ppl who aren’t Christians, this is going to sound like out of the pan and into the fire. I think from a Christian perspective it can go either way. It’s possible she just repeats the same scenario, substituting Jeremy’s interpretations or MacArthurs or whomever for Gothard’s.   It’s also possible she continues to find her own perspective and is capable of challenging things that are more part of a subculture. Since it seems so much of her initial detangling, as she calls it, was due to getting to know people who believed differently, I hope she has more of that and encounters Christian’s who don’t hold to Uber reformed interpretations. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by neuroticcat

[Smee]

I just don’t understand what Jeremy was thinking through all this and why he continued to pursue this girl he barely knew and sit through dozens of Gothard videos and jump through all JB’s hoops. People tolerate a lot for love, but he had to do all that just to get to know her well enough to figure out if there was something there. How could he have been so sure and so dedicated when he’d never had an unchaperoned conversation or held her hand? So to me the logical conclusion is that he wanted her because of the spiritual and mental (& probably physical) abuse she had endured. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, Smee said:

I just don’t understand what Jeremy was thinking through all this and why he continued to pursue this girl he barely knew and sit through dozens of Gothard videos and jump through all JB’s hoops. People tolerate a lot for love, but he had to do all that just to get to know her well enough to figure out if there was something there. How could he have been so sure and so dedicated when he’d never had an unchaperoned conversation or held her hand? So to me the logical conclusion is that he wanted her because of the spiritual and mental (& probably physical) abuse she had endured. 

It really is unsettling that he still wanted to marry her after he saw how crazy it all was. Did he plan from the start to be her manly Christian savior? I know people like to paint women as the spouse that’s always trying to save and fix their partner. But it sounds like Jeremy may have had that in mind. And of course he then gets to be the one to mold her into what he thinks is best. 

[Cam]

42 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It really is unsettling that he still wanted to marry her after he saw how crazy it all was. Did he plan from the start to be her manly Christian savior? I know people like to paint women as the spouse that’s always trying to save and fix their partner. But it sounds like Jeremy may have had that in mind. And of course he then gets to be the one to mold her into what he thinks is best. 

Yeah, after reading all the above posts about the hoops Jeremy jumped through, I think it was some kind of savior thing. That, combined with the lure of the Tv show which appealed to his ego.

[AprilQuilt]

5 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

No questions in current status with her family.

Lots of things I found interesting in the interview. Jinger talks about learning to base her life on what she found herself in the Word of God. I think for ppl who aren’t Christians, this is going to sound like out of the pan and into the fire. I think from a Christian perspective it can go either way. It’s possible she just repeats the same scenario, substituting Jeremy’s interpretations or MacArthurs or whomever for Gothard’s.   It’s also possible she continues to find her own perspective and is capable of challenging things that are more part of a subculture. Since it seems so much of her initial detangling, as she calls it, was due to getting to know people who believed differently, I hope she has more of that and encounters Christian’s who don’t hold to Uber reformed interpretations. 

This struck me too - Jinger saying that now she was capable of looking in the Bible and finding out exactly what God says about X topic rather than being ruled by IBLP superstition that's not actually in there... well that could go either way. She either leans on someone else to interpret God's word for her, eg Jeremy or MacArthur; or she continues to work those new critical thinking muscles and pushes herself to independently study the bible and come to her own conclusions. She's found the confidence and support to go so far, but I don't know whether she has it to entirely make up her own mind. Eg, would she ever feel confident enough to turn only to the Bible to ascertain for herself whether God accepts homosexuality? I'm not sure.

[postscript]

Eesh, 60+ hours of Gothard seminars in order to court Jinger? And doing this to someone who is already a pastor? That says something about Jim Bob’s need for control, even of his adult children. No wonder some of the girls are starting to break away, even if it’s baby steps.

 

[LillyP]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It really is unsettling that he still wanted to marry her after he saw how crazy it all was. Did he plan from the start to be her manly Christian savior? I know people like to paint women as the spouse that’s always trying to save and fix their partner. But it sounds like Jeremy may have had that in mind. And of course he then gets to be the one to mold her into what he thinks is best. 

If I was a betting gal, I bet upon meeting her and finding her attractive and trying to get to know her he could probably sense some cracks in her beliefs. I think he has a bit of a Christian Savior complex, or maybe he just really liked her and figured he could be the one to bring her to the other side. 

I think a lot of us have our relationship deal-breakers....I've got a lot of them. For me personally if I was starting to date a guy and hated his family, I probably wouldn't pursue the relationship. A lifetime of dealing with people you dislike especially (if your spouse is close to their family), just isn't the life for me. But how many people do we know who go ahead and marry someone whose family they hate....and then they constantly complain and are miserable every time they have to be around them? A LOT. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, postscript said:

Eesh, 60+ hours of Gothard seminars in order to court Jinger? And doing this to someone who is already a pastor? That says something about Jim Bob’s need for control, even of his adult children. No wonder some of the girls are starting to break away, even if it’s baby steps.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if he wanted to stick it to JB. Hey look, I rescued your precious Jinger and took her away to heathen California! Na na na na boo boo!
 

Can you tell I think very lowly of Jeremy? 

[Mama Mia]

I could see Jeremy falling down the rabbit hole of WTF watching the videos and learning more about the whole Gothard thing. He’s already a minister, so presumably enjoys debating theology. He has an ally in Ben, and presumably at least somewhat of an ally in Jessa. There’s a lovely, malleable girl that he likes at the end of it. Instead of making him back off, it might have just made him more intrigued. 
 

I mean, I’ve spent faaarrr more than 60 hours here, and it has zero to do with my real life, and I don’t get a homemaker/ $ making influencer as a prize at the end of it. 

[noseybutt]

Oh I think it’s very on-brand for conservative men to look for wives among more conservative families. It’s a win-win for them. They get the sheltered woman and get to “free”/save her too.

[JermajestyDuggar]

46 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Oh I think it’s very on-brand for conservative men to look for wives among more conservative families. It’s a win-win for them. They get the sheltered woman and get to “free”/save her too.

I think that’s what Meredith Hammer’s husband did. 

[Smee]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I mean, I’ve spent faaarrr more than 60 hours here, and it has zero to do with my real life, and I don’t get a homemaker/ $ making influencer as a prize at the end of it. 

Good point. It is certainly a fascinating rabbit hole.

I think very little of Jeremy, and have no doubt Jinger’s fame was a huge draw card for him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he lurked here at some point and set out to make himself “the one who freed Jinger”. I guess that’s better than wanting a broken girl to love bomb and then abuse/control for life. Tia Levings’ posts about her ex-husband do make me worry what goes on behind closed doors in these houses, but narcissism can manifest in different ways. A saviour complex would certainly fit.

[xenobia]

6 hours ago, LillyP said:

I think a lot of us have our relationship deal-breakers....I've got a lot of them. For me personally if I was starting to date a guy and hated his family, I probably wouldn't pursue the relationship. A lifetime of dealing with people you dislike especially (if your spouse is close to their family), just isn't the life for me. But how many people do we know who go ahead and marry someone whose family they hate....and then they constantly complain and are miserable every time they have to be around them? A LOT. 

I had two deal-breakers. I could never marry a smoker. Sorry, but I just can't stand cigarettes.

And I could never marry a man who isn't smart, kind, verbal and an equal partner. If we play Trivial Pursuit or do a quiz of some kind, you never know who wins. He's also very empathetic and likes to discuss situations and people around us - not in a gossip way, but to understand why things happen, why people react in certain ways and things like that.

He works more than full time as a college professor, and we share the responsibilities at home. I don't need to tell him what needs to be done. He's an adult and pulls his own weight. 

I have ben married before - not the best experience. I was 43 when we med, and had kind of given up on the whole marriage idea. But fortunately I found him. Or my best friend found him for me and knew we would hit it off. He moved in with me a week after we met. That was 10 years ago, and I haven't regretted it for a second. 

[noseybutt]

2 minutes ago, Smee said:

Good point. It is certainly a fascinating rabbit hole.

I think very little of Jeremy, and have no doubt Jinger’s fame was a huge draw card for him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he lurked here at some point and set out to make himself “the one who freed Jinger”. I guess that’s better than wanting a broken girl to love bomb and then abuse/control for life. Tia Levings’ posts about her ex-husband do make me worry what goes on behind closed doors in these houses, but narcissism can manifest in different ways. A saviour complex would certainly fit.

Tia Leving’s situation seems toward the extreme end of the continuum. She does an excellent job explaining the mindset and possible outcomes, but the outcomes really are something of a wildcard and not as black and white as her own personal situation.

[Smee]

13 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

—she talks about having kids taking a long time to deconstruct - that she thought any kind of birth control was abortion and that she assumed she would have 19.

This is interesting because presumably much of her “disentangling” didn’t really happen until she was out of JB’s house and under Jeremy’s authority instead. But they waited a year to get pregnant with Felicity so were likely using birth control from day one of the marriage. How did she feel about that? Did Jeremy just overrule her?

In that regard, Jill’s trajectory makes more sense. The instant pregnancy and then Sam soon after Israel, all happening WHILE they were re-assessing beliefs, and parenthood surely contributed to their deconstruction. Then a long break before Freddie because they were no longer quiverfull.

5 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Tia Leving’s situation seems toward the extreme end of the continuum. She does an excellent job explaining the mindset and possible outcomes, but the outcomes really are something of a wildcard and not as black and white as her own personal situation.

Yeah I know, I guess I just know SO MANY stories of guys who present well in public and seem to adore their wives, but are absolute monsters the minute something doesn’t go their way. And so many stories of generational abuse, women despairing that they apparently married their controlling, violent father. I likewise believe JB is capable of violence off camera. In the fundie subculture, hitting children is seen as the “right” way to parent, and fathers will get up in front of the church and “confess” their anger to be forgiven and prayed over and forgotten. It’s rarer for families to admit to/encourage using spousal “discipline” (which seems to have a sexual kink element) but I’m sure many of these men backhand their wives as easily as they do their children.

[Cults-r-us]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:44 AM, gustava said:

Mods…Not sure where this goes so move/remove as you see fit.

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/1/22/2148541/-Christianist-blogger-wags-finger-at-Jinger-Duggar-Vuolo-for-opening-up-about-her-abusive-childhood?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended

Reprimanded for telling the truth?

Lazy Lori is probably greatly afeared one of her own kids could write a similar book

 

[neuroticcat]

I agree that there is a spectrum of horrors in these movements. It doesn’t make any of it okay or minimize the harm, but it’s possible someone can nominally in these places and LARP around instagram with beards and pipes and reformed theology books. But I think those guys don’t last.

 

The True Believers will always be abusive. Ans I  the extra sinister thing is that you never know who is just a lip-service nominalistic Calvinist and who beats their wife. Because anyone who will abuse people also has ability to deceive everyone.

I had an abusive family member. Years after I grew up and moved away I came in close contact with them for a time. They seemed normal and healthy…different. One day, they thought I wasn’t around and I overheard them in a narcissist rage. It was a huge realization for me because I had *literally grown up with it* and still fell for the facade. 
 

Abusive people are master manipulators. I will always believe someone who says they were abused. 

1 minute ago, Cults-r-us said:

Lazy Lori is probably greatly afeared one of her own kids could write a similar book

 

She’s all over twitter passively aggressively shaming Jinger for coming forward. What makes it even more ridiculous is for all that Jinger names about Gothard, she never said much about her parents. She is treading very carefully. Lori  can’t handle even a hint of an adult child being empowered to confront abusive parents.
 

[libgirl2]

47 minutes ago, xenobia said:

I had two deal-breakers. I could never marry a smoker. Sorry, but I just can't stand cigarettes.

And I could never marry a man who isn't smart, kind, verbal and an equal partner. If we play Trivial Pursuit or do a quiz of some kind, you never know who wins. He's also very empathetic and likes to discuss situations and people around us - not in a gossip way, but to understand why things happen, why people react in certain ways and things like that.

He works more than full time as a college professor, and we share the responsibilities at home. I don't need to tell him what needs to be done. He's an adult and pulls his own weight. 

I have ben married before - not the best experience. I was 43 when we med, and had kind of given up on the whole marriage idea. But fortunately I found him. Or my best friend found him for me and knew we would hit it off. He moved in with me a week after we met. That was 10 years ago, and I haven't regretted it for a second. 

My ex wasn't exactly the brightest bulb around and it was frustrating. He was very much into image and looks, his friends were the same. People I never would have hung around with in my life.

My husband is very smart. Like you say, he is the type that I could play trivial pursuit with and we both have a good chance at winning. I'm British history, he is Russian history. We are both well read. When I met him he was reading Dante's Inferno. I was so impressed that not only had he heard of it but he was reading it! And its not to say he is stuffy or boring. He likes his goofy stuff. He eats spaghettios on the weekends. He can be silly.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by libgirl2

[xenobia]

11 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

My ex wasn't exactly the brightest bulb around and it was frustrating. He was very much into image and looks, his friends were the same. People I never would have hung around with in my life. My husband now is very smart. Like you say, he is the type that I could play trivial pursuit with and we both have a good chance at winning. I'm British history, he is Russian history. We are both well read. When I met him he was reading Dante's Inferno. I was so impressed that not only had he heard of it but he was reading it! And its not to say he is stuffy or boring. He likes his goofy stuff. He eats spaghettios on the weekends. He can be silly. 

I can relate  I think you have to be very lucky to find someone who doesn't trigger your dealbreakers, but have their own quirks that you can tolerate, and who can live with yours. Mr X's idea of a great weekend is to stay at home, not wear pants and watch at least 4 Premier League soccer matches in a row. He hates wearing shirts and ties (fortunately he doesn't have to every day). He's scared of going to the dentist, doesn't have a drivers license and has a huge collection of Bruce Springsteen t-shirts (never worn, of course, they are collectibles). He's sitting here beside me in the couch right now, very focused on a snooker match which I find extremely boring. Totally not interested in what I'm reading or writing here on the FJ-forum. Wouldn't trade him for anything in the world.

[patsymae]

13 hours ago, Smee said:

I just don’t understand what Jeremy was thinking through all this and why he continued to pursue this girl he barely knew and sit through dozens of Gothard videos and jump through all JB’s hoops. People tolerate a lot for love, but he had to do all that just to get to know her well enough to figure out if there was something there. How could he have been so sure and so dedicated when he’d never had an unchaperoned conversation or held her hand? So to me the logical conclusion is that he wanted her because of the spiritual and mental (& probably physical) abuse she had endured. 

I suspect he also wanted the $ and status he thought would come as a denizen of Duggarworld.

[Hera]

16 hours ago, Smee said:

I just don’t understand what Jeremy was thinking through all this and why he continued to pursue this girl he barely knew and sit through dozens of Gothard videos and jump through all JB’s hoops. People tolerate a lot for love, but he had to do all that just to get to know her well enough to figure out if there was something there. How could he have been so sure and so dedicated when he’d never had an unchaperoned conversation or held her hand? So to me the logical conclusion is that he wanted her because of the spiritual and mental (& probably physical) abuse she had endured. 

“Fame” and money. Basically the same reasons he wanted to be a soccer star. And now a TV minister/politician/spokesman/whatever.

Not many actualized women out there who can score TV shows and People magazine covers and who’ll also be interested in life with someone like Jeremy. He chose his venue and picked someone who would compliment and not protest. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 minutes ago, Hera said:

“Fame” and money. Basically the same reasons he wanted to be a soccer star. And now a TV minister/politician/spokesman/whatever.

Not many actualized women out there who can score TV shows and People magazine covers and who’ll also be interested in life with someone like Jeremy. He chose his venue and picked someone who would compliment and not protest. 

Same with Lawson Bates. Very very few successful Disney actors would go for a guy like him. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

14 hours ago, Cam said:

Yeah, after reading all the above posts about the hoops Jeremy jumped through, I think it was some kind of savior thing. That, combined with the lure of the Tv show which appealed to his ego.

I think the sexual abuse from Josh played a role in making Jeremy want to be her savior. I’m also a survivor of child sexual abuse and some people are…. weird about it.