(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[Bastet]

It seems obvious to us that Anna has been putting Josh before her children, but is it likely obvious to Anna?  My understanding is that the cult teaches that her commitment to her marriage serves her children best in all circumstances—especially since his sins are her fault anyway. 😔 (I would think the cult would approve a separation if there was proof of sexual abuse of their kids.) Would what she was taught about the needs of kids and her feelings of guilt keep her from seeing what is so obvious to us? Who outside the cult does she see who could begin to challenge her understanding of things? I bet she has little contact with her renegade siblings, nothing like her regular contact with Michelle, Jessa, and Jana. Her intellectual and spiritual isolation must be profound. 

I’m really interested in how ex-fundamentalists see her situation. Is there anything in the cult’s teaching that would allow her to see the needs of her children differently? I try to imagine how it must seem to her and I think that if I believed that Josh’s fall was essentially my fault, sinful daughter of Eve that I am, that that would by itself be enough to bind me forever to try and try again to save him and thereby save my children. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Bastet

[formergothardite]

53 minutes ago, Bastet said:

especially since his sins are her fault anyway

They do not teach this. Josh is responsible for what he did. There is a story taught by IBLP where a man constantly watches porn and tries to put the blame on his wife but through Bill Gothard(🙄) realizes he is the sinner and it was wrong to shift the blame. I think it is even in the Basic seminar that one must accept responsibility instead of trying to blame others. 
 

I do think they would encourage her to stay married even if she never saw him again, but if Anna wanted out she could find a way. If Josh gets out and she welcomes him home it is because she is choosing him over the safety of her children. Anna is hardly a shrinking violet, her Twitter showed she is passionate about radical, dangerous and hateful beliefs and is willing to speak up for what she truly believes.  

 Anna has a period of grace where it is understandable if she doesn’t leave him, but at some point she needs to be held responsible for her decisions. 

ETA:

https://iblp.org/questions/what-can-stand-way-clearing-my-conscience

This makes is pretty clear that Josh has to take full responsibility and not blame Anna. 
 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by formergothardite

[BlackberryGirl]

Theoretically Anna could substitute teach in Arkansas. “The traditional Arkansas substitute teacher does not need any education beyond a high school diploma or GED. ... To obtain a Professional Teaching Permit, you must have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the content area in which you wish to teach.”

not saying she would but she could work darn near every school day with nothing more than a GED and earn about $82.00 a day.

[Bastet]

24 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

ETA:

https://iblp.org/questions/what-can-stand-way-clearing-my-conscience

This makes is pretty clear that Josh has to take full responsibility and not blame Anna. 

It’s clear that that’s what they would say to Josh, but I’m more interested in what they say to Anna.  Is anyone in the cult likely to be telling her she is risking the safety of her children by staying with him? 
   Aren’t women in the cult generally held responsible for the sexual misbehavior of men? I thought women were told that if they sexually served their men in marriage  they would not stray. 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

I think that ship has sailed. It's hard to make a comeback after child porn. It crosses too many lines, even for fundies.

Someone mentioned that he'll be unemployable, and that is probably true. Most likely, though, he won't want employment. Their cult discourages employment and encourages entrepreneurship. He'll probably start a business, as he's done in the past. Probably an internet one, buying and selling stuff, so he can remain anonymous. 

I don’t know how many in his community believe that a propensity for or interest in CSA is unlikely to be overcome by prayer.  However, I have heard of murderers who came out of prison and successfully established “Now I have found God” ministries.  One of them had killed his own wife, but he had a huge following.

I don’t actually think Josh will go the “redeemed sinner” route because he couldn’t keep it up.  One thing those self-ordained preachers tend to be good at is projecting empathy (even if it is an act).  Josh can’t even pretend to care about other people. 

[Caroline]

54 minutes ago, BlackberryGirl said:

Theoretically Anna could substitute teach in Arkansas. “The traditional Arkansas substitute teacher does not need any education beyond a high school diploma or GED. ... To obtain a Professional Teaching Permit, you must have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the content area in which you wish to teach.”

not saying she would but she could work darn near every school day with nothing more than a GED and earn about $82.00 a day.

In our district subs are required to have at least two years of college and be finger printed (Teachers are require do be finger-printed too.)  Some districts in our state require more college than that, and in some districts  in emergency situations (Covid?) a high school diploma is enough.  

I'm having a hard time imagining someone who seems as sheltered as Anna in a public school at any level.  Maybe she could work at a Christian school, but I'll bet the pay isn't so good.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, BlackberryGirl said:

Theoretically Anna could substitute teach in Arkansas. “The traditional Arkansas substitute teacher does not need any education beyond a high school diploma or GED. ... To obtain a Professional Teaching Permit, you must have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the content area in which you wish to teach.”

not saying she would but she could work darn near every school day with nothing more than a GED and earn about $82.00 a day.

Her name is synonymous with pedophile enabler.  Even if our hypothetical fan fic of her ever getting a job were to come true, her working with children is a surefire way to get Josh's crimes right back into the public discourse.

Her own actions show she has no business in any role where she'd be a mandated reporter.  

Besides, even as a sub without the educational requirements I'm pretty sure they'd prefer them to be able to put coherent sentences together, a skill she lacks.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, BlackberryGirl said:

Theoretically Anna could substitute teach in Arkansas. “The traditional Arkansas substitute teacher does not need any education beyond a high school diploma or GED. ... To obtain a Professional Teaching Permit, you must have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the content area in which you wish to teach.”

not saying she would but she could work darn near every school day with nothing more than a GED and earn about $82.00 a day.

Because of Covid, many states have temporarily relaxed the substitute teacher qualifications and you don’t even need a GED, but that is only temporarily.

I have known many college and graduate students who supplemented their income as substitute teachers, but by itself it is not enough money to support a family.

[EmCatlyn]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Her name is synonymous with pedophile enabler.  Even if our hypothetical fan fic of her ever getting a job were to come true, her working with children is a surefire way to get Josh's crimes right back into the public discourse.

Her own actions show she has no business in any role where she'd be a mandated reporter.  

Besides, even as a sub without the educational requirements I'm pretty sure they'd prefer them to be able to put coherent sentences together, a skill she lacks.

I agree it is all quasi fan-fic, but I don’t agree that if Anna were to see the light and divorce Josh she would still be seen as a “pedophile enabler” for supporting him during his court case.  She could probably make a convincing argument that she was emotionally abused and didn’t know what she was doing. If she disassociates from Josh completely, she could probably get trust and sympathy. Though I don’t think she is capable of any real work other than waiting tables at a place like Shoney’s, retail at someplace like Walmart, or childcare (not education), I do think she won’t suffer much from her support of Josh if she divorced and separated he life from Josh’s.

However, I think she is unlikely to leave Josh or the cult.

 

(An exception would be if it came out that he had molested their children.)  

[formergothardite]

44 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Aren’t women in the cult generally held responsible for the sexual misbehavior of men? I thought women were told that if they sexually served their men in marriage  they would not stray. 

I think there is often confusion about what all the various fundie groups we discuss teach. I know there are some fundie groups that teach that women are to blame, but IBLP doesn’t. IBLP teaches an epic amount of crazy, but if they believe Josh did this,  he alone is responsible according to the cult teachings. 
 

I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if lots of people in their community never let Josh near their kids and look down on Anna if she welcomes him home. Especially if he never openly admits his sins and repents. If someone doesn’t repent and own up to sin then they are still considered to be living in sin. If your authority figure asks you to do something that is wrong(let Josh see his kids) then you can refuse to do it because they are outside of the will of God. So she can absolutely use the umbrella of authority to kick Josh to the curb. 
 

But if Anna rejects all the evidence and maintains he is innocent then she is going to shun everyone who tells her Josh is a danger. So as long as she is clinging to her Joshy and the idea she can get her #littleduggar life back then she isn’t going to listen to anyone even if they are in the cult. Her standing by him is probably less about what the cult is telling her and more about if she is willing to accept she married and supported a monster. That is one difficult thing to accept. Anna seems to have loved her life, even though to us it seems miserable. Hopefully as time passes she can find a new dream. 
 

I want to make it clear the cult teaches some awful, victim blaming shit. But in this particular instance where she set up accountability and he snuck around to sin, Josh gets the blame. He lied to her and took a ton of steps to hide what he was doing. But it all comes down to if Anna believes he did it. If she never accepts what he did she will never hold him responsible or protect her children. 

[imokit]

I doubt many people close to Josh believe he's a danger to his or the family's children.  Even though for us its as clear as day.

For them - molestation of sisters = a teenage boy exploring sexuality and hormones in a harmful way - NOT predation

Ashley Madison scandal and various porn issues = said teen has grown into a sex addict.  He's sinful and scummy, but has clearly moved on from children. While very bad in their eyes, it likely reinforced to the family that he wasn't a paedophile and the molestation of his sisters was hormones and the start of sex issues, which as he got older moved to adult tastes.

The child sexual abuse images were images.  There is no evidence he touched a minor since he was teenager.  Most people believer that someone who is turned on by watching children be tortured, is clearly someone who dangerous to be around children.  Some people differentiate between people who watch those images and people who produce those images.   I have no doubt that plenty in Josh's family (likely including Anna) believe that he isn't a danger to their children.  He only looked, he never touched.  Heck even CPS let him have contact with his own children while he was on bail. Yes he had to have supervision, but he could see and talk to them.   The CPS decision will have reinforced people's (Anna's) natural desire  to believe that Josh isn't a risk to the children.

I think that the Duggar family is likely very split on the is Josh a danger to the family children issue.  Jill clearly believes he is a danger, nor from Jinger's statement do I think her kids will ever be near him once he's released.

Others I think trust that he won't hurt their kids.

Though its not something they've had to think about since the initial arrest.  He got arrested, his bail conditions were such that he only had access to his own, he then went to prison and he won't be out for a while.  Difficult decisions over whether to take their kids to parties/family things Josh is at won't need to be made for years.

 

To clarify - I think Josh is a danger to children. I don't believe Anna thinks he is.  In Anna's mind she's doing right by her kids by standing by their father.  She doesn't need to protect them from him, she needs to protect them from Satan external things. I believer that his siblings are split on the issue.  I don't know where they all stand.  I have no doubt some of them would trust him not to hurt their kids.  I have no doubt some (Jill/Jinger) wouldn't let him near.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I agree it is all quasi fan-fic, but I don’t agree that if Anna were to see the light and divorce Josh she would still be seen as a “pedophile enabler” for supporting him during his court case.  She could probably make a convincing argument that she was emotionally abused and didn’t know what she was doing. If she disassociates from Josh completely, she could probably get trust and sympathy.

From people on snark boards and those who have followed the case perhaps, but if I'm a parent who only knows her from the news I'm not going to give a shit about her soul searching or try to understand if her life choices are sincere or not.  I'm going to pull my kid from any contact with her because she's lost the right to benefit of the doubt with the general public. 

I think you're overestimating how much a parent is going to care about her mental state and there are something from which your reputation will never recover and she's already crossed that line.  She's made life changing mistakes and if this wasn't pure conjecture and she ever attempted to work with kids she would see actions have consequences.  Fortunately for her she'll never face those within her little bubble.

 

[Antimony]

While we're writing this fanfic, let me just point out that Anna would be absolutely demolished by any given group of teens in a public school.

(Not that kids are bad, I too was a teen, and we also put our substitute teachers through some shit. The level of shit varies, but mischief at the minimum.)

[Tatar-tot]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The only two people I know in real life who did prison terms (for drugs) ended up selling cars when they got out of prison. So maybe Josh will go back to his old job.🙄😆

Seriously, I am sure JB will support him when he gets out.  All else aside, Josh could write that tell-all book which JB would not like at all.

It is, however, quite possible that Josh will discover while in prison that he doesn’t want to go back to Anna, the kids, JB, etc.  So maybe he will leave.

It is also possible that he will find that he can gain status and credibility as the “reformed” back-to-Jesus person, maybe even start a ministry and give speeches. 🤷‍♀️

I forgot to mention this but he could also star in LOVE AFTER LOCKUP.  You know everyone would tune in.  😎

[samurai_sarah]

13 hours ago, imokit said:

(snip)

The time for Anna to make big decisions is near his release time.  She won't be able to support herself better than JB will in the next 5 years unless she sells out to media (which she won't).  

(snip)

It wouldn't be in her interest to sell out to the mainstream media. She'll be news for a few minutes and that'd be the end of it. So, she is far better off standing by  her man and doing the talking circuit in fundie circles. Being the martyr is more likely to keep food on the table. Plus, she can publish several books on the subject of forgiveness and marriage. She can totally turn this absolute horror story to her advantage.

[ElizaB]

For Anna to work full time she would need to do something with her kids. Let's say she send the older ones to school and finds daycare for the others. She would need to pay for day care for 3 kids. This would cost her over $150 a day. A babysitter would probably charge her between 12-15 an hour so an 8 hour day would be $96-100. Any job she can find with her limited education is not going to leave her anything from her paycheck. 

She would have to rely on the Duggars for childcare. So any job she gets would basically have to be approved by them. I just don't see her having a ton of choices. 

Unfortunately, this is also a poor reflection on our society. Affordable childcare is just not available and it makes this really really hard for single moms. 

[Caroline]

50 minutes ago, Antimony said:

While we're writing this fanfic, let me just point out that Anna would be absolutely demolished by any given group of teens in a public school.

(Not that kids are bad, I too was a teen, and we also put our substitute teachers through some shit. The level of shit varies, but mischief at the minimum.)

When I'm absent from school (high school) I always request a specific sub because I know the kids won't pull anything over on her and the work will get done.  She leaves me notes about bad behavior, but there usually isn't any.  She's tough, but the kids really like her too.  I agree that kids can brutal on a sub, and Anna would be a disaster.

[Dysfundamental]

Why would Anna want to teach in a school? Her kids don’t go to school, she was homeschooled, and so was their dad. These people don’t believe in school, full stop.

[Bassett Lady]

7 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

On the other hand, I would have done anything in my power to protect my son from harm (and I still would do so even though he's a grown man and fully capable of taking care of himself).  I always felt that was some innate primal instinct - protect your young

Yes, thank you for saying that so succinctly. I also feel the need to protect my children, and all children. When I taught my classroom kids were my children and I loved them and cheered for them and rooted for them and spent so much time and energy coming up with strategies to help them succeed. 
 

It truly baffles me to see the way they treat their children, the danger and harm that they casually court at every turn. It is an affront to my deeply held religious beliefs and to the basic mammalian response to offspring. 

[Cults-r-us]

11 hours ago, SassyPants said:

You dont need a degree to teach in Arkansas-

what do you suggest she do to gain independence? 

Where I live the junior college has a program for homeschoolers to transition to junior college. I don't know what kind of carrot would have to be held in front of Anna to try something like that program. Maybe when Mac enrolls in something like that? If she could just finish one class a semester, her horizons would open up a little, plus some new ideas and people. I guess it's too much to hope for but she will only get to where she's going (if she goes anywhere) by baby steps.

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

When I'm absent from school (high school) I always request a specific sub because I know the kids won't pull anything over on her and the work will get done.  She leaves me notes about bad behavior, but there usually isn't any.  She's tough, but the kids really like her too.  I agree that kids can brutal on a sub, and Anna would be a disaster.

When I was in junior high/high school their was a sub that everyone loved. We called him Mr Rodgers because he always wore a sweater. He was a great sub. Their was a few others that no one liked so everyone knew to be good if one of them was subbing.  Their was also one where if he showed up we knew that the teacher would be out for a while. (Teacher’s used him as long term sub).

Edited February 1, 2022 by Jana814

[Hera]

12 hours ago, SassyPants said:

what do you suggest she do to gain independence? 

There’s nothing she can do right now - that’s the point of the entire cult. Saddle the women with no education, no job skills and bunch of young kids and they’re stuck. Patriarchy firmly established. 
 

Supporting seven kids takes a lot of money. Anna will never earn enough to work, plus pay for child care and feed, shelter and clothe all of them on her own. Her husband is in jail - so no child support - and Jim Bob legally owes her squat.  And anyone who believes she can get state or federal benefits sufficient to take care of seven kids on an at best minimum wage income (assuming feee childcare!) has never been desperate and on state or federal  benefits. 

So, yeah, Anna’s best bet for the next few years is to keep her head down and survive.  Survive until her kids are at least old enough to be weaned. And maybe in school.   I have no idea what she’s thinking. I have no idea how she will think in a few years. But for now, in her shoes, I’d keep my head down and get through it. 

[feministxtian]

@Caroline teaching qualifications vary. I teach at a charter school. The core classes at my school are taught by someone who majored in the subject and minored in education. The various STEM classes are taught by people who know that particular subject. 

Teenagers are a lot of fun...but they can drive you nuts. I have 8 students, all male, between the ages of 14 and 18. Love them to bits but sometimes...and I will NEVER EVER sub for the Spanish 2 class again! 

[neuroticcat]

Tia Levings, the ex fundie writer on Instagram, is doing a bit on fundie poverty now, and it made me think of this thread. Leaving (unless Anna goes to her non fundie siblings) likely means poverty for Anna and her kids - perhaps worse than what she experienced growing up. At least at first. And it means deconstruction. She cannot leave and continue on as the fundie sahm homeschooling iblp wife. So I think she does have lots of viable - even if very hard - options, but it has to be worth it to her to leave. Other fundie women have done it, so it’s not impossible. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I don't think Anna would poor. Either she could JB for back-earnings since she was on every Duggar show, including early seasons of Counting On. Or she could publicly shame JB into giving her money. Or set up a Go-Fund Me to leave her in-laws if they are forcing her to stay married to her husband.

I don't see there being a wide market for a forgiveness narrative involving CSAM. My faith in humanity continues to sink, but this would be another level.  Things that are specifically Christian-themed are already a niche market and this story has ick factor a lot of those things lack.

I think the only reason for Anna to stay with Josh is that she delusionally wants to be with him. She may also change her mind after the sentencing and appeal.