(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[nokidsmom]

37 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I agree. How else is she supposed to survive? Yes, JB and M have done Anna a huge injustice by foisting Josh off on her younger self, but legally she and the kids are not the elder Duggars” responsibility. So, Anna, as the only available parent, should secure every service available to her family.

Anna should look into any services she qualifies for and I hope she does for her family's sake.   While she and her family live on JB and M's property and are being provided with food, clothing, etc. she still is, legally speaking, on her own.   

While I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Anna now, I do have sympathy for her naive younger self.   JB/M were wrong to push Josh in her direction knowing his issues but it's not the first time I have heard of parents pushing a troubled son/daughter into marriage in an attempt to wash their hands of the problem.   I avoided a fate like that myself, seriously.    

[waltraute]

My speculation:

Anna will stand by Josh throughout his incarceration and beyond.

Josh will form a prison relationship with a female pen pal but keep it secret from his family. He might have more than one prison relationship.

Upon his release, Josh will go home to Anna and either continue with his secret prison relationship(s) or engage in entirely new ones. 

There will be another scandal. Either an affair will come to light or more illegal activity. Or both.

Sub-speculation:

If Josh's possible prison 'affair(s)' come to light before he is released, he might decide to eff it and not go home at all. 

[nokidsmom]

Deleting double post

Edited February 1, 2022 by nokidsmom

[neuroticcat]

14 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I don't think Anna would poor. Either she could JB for back-earnings since she was on every Duggar show, including early seasons of Counting On. Or she could publicly shame JB into giving her money. Or set up a Go-Fund Me to leave her in-laws if they are forcing her to stay married to her husband.

 

I think suing or publicly shaming for money would require a lot of deconstruction. It seems Derick was able to do that, but he wasn’t raised in the cult. Anna would have to be motivated to divorce Josh, leave all of her primary support, out them publicly and then do it all in the public eye. It goes against every teaching on authority she’s lived under her whole life. Maybe she is angry enough with Josh and her circumstances, but would she really betray her primary support system too? That would mean cutting ties with all the second gen Duggars who seem to be her main friends as well. I suppose a tell-all is a possibility, it just seems like there are a lot of psychological and emotional hoops to get through before someone goes from submissive wife and daughter-in-love in the warehouse to publicly going after their in-laws.
 

But who knows? Maybe she is secretly deconstructing all of that? I tend to think it’s more cultish and that she would need to leave the way some SAHD daughters or fundie wives have. Take her kids, leave while the others are gone, stay with friends for awhile until she has the ability to begin the path to independence. And none of that would get her the Duggar money - at least at first. 

[mpheels]

2 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

Coverage options must vary depending on which state you live in, because my experience with Obamacare has been positive.   I'm in California,  and I have been able to afford a comprehensive plan through Kaiser.  I'm sorry you didn't have a positive experience.   However,  I am a little concerned about what will happen to my premium when I turn 65 and go on Medicare.   I've heard that my monthly amount may go up quite a bit which makes no sense to me. 

Coverage options on the ACA marketplaces vary a lot - there are a bunch of counties where residents only have one insurance plan to choose from, primarily because the insurance companies don’t see an opportunity to profit from those communities. Health policy experts could foresee that, and there were two features that were supposed to mitigate the problem - 1) the “public option” where people pay an income-based premium to enroll in Medicare early and 2) Medicaid expansion to catch all adults with incomes less than 138% of the federal poverty level. The public option didn’t make it into the final version of the legislation thanks to insurance companies’ lobbying efforts. Medicaid expansion was always an “option” for states, but the original plan included a threat to cut all Medicaid funds to states that didn’t expand. The Supreme Court nixed that threat, so a bunch of states decided not to expand. To date, there are still 12 states that haven’t expanded Medicaid.

[Chickenbutt]

Trying to imagine the difference in Anna's letters to Josh and the letters from a frisky pen pal.

Anna: Dearest Josh

The kids are fine. So and so is walking now. So and so is graduating from 8th grade and reads as well as I do. The rest of the kids are hanging around at the big house. They don't spend much time here. The water heater blew up and I had to ask your dad for money for a new one. I think the stove is going to be next. One of your brothers came and mowed the lawn, I had to pay him. I can't wait for you to get home so we can see if G-d is done giving us babies.

Lovingly, 

Anna

PenPal: Hey Hottie!

I am set for our next phone call. I hope it is a video call so we can.....you know. 😉. I got my check today. Went to AdoreMe and bought a new outfit just for you. I tried it on and pranced around the house, ordered fast food delivery and thought about you while lounging in my oh so sexy new outfit and eating ribs.  I'm so glad there are no kids here. Can't wait for you to get out and we can start our carefree, sexy, lives together. No kids, no wife, just me and you! 

Horny for you, 

PenPal

 

lolololol.....I think I even freak myself out. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Trying to imagine the difference in Anna's letters to Josh and the letters from a frisky pen pal.

Anna: Dearest Josh

The kids are fine. So and so is walking now. So and so is graduating from 8th grade and reads as well as I do. The rest of the kids are hanging around at the big house. They don't spend much time here. The water heater blew up and I had to ask your dad for money for a new one. I think the stove is going to be next. One of your brothers came and mowed the lawn, I had to pay him. I can't wait for you to get home so we can see if G-d is done giving us babies.

Lovingly, 

Anna

PenPal: Hey Hottie!

I am set for our next phone call. I hope it is a video call so we can.....you know. 😉. I got my check today. Went to AdoreMe and bought a new outfit just for you. I tried it on and pranced around the house, ordered fast food delivery and thought about you while lounging in my oh so sexy new outfit and eating ribs.  I'm so glad there are no kids here. Can't wait for you to get out and we can start our carefree, sexy, lives together. No kids, no wife, just me and you! 

Horny for you, 

PenPal

 

lolololol.....I think I even freak myself out. 

As the kids say on Reddit, what a terrible day to know how to read!  🤣

 

[backyard sylph]

4 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

Coverage options must vary depending on which state you live in, because my experience with Obamacare has been positive.   I'm in California,  and I have been able to afford a comprehensive plan through Kaiser.  I'm sorry you didn't have a positive experience.   However,  I am a little concerned about what will happen to my premium when I turn 65 and go on Medicare.   I've heard that my monthly amount may go up quite a bit which makes no sense to me. 

Our choice, in Ohio, was $900 a month for bare bones coverage with high deductible, or $1700 a year penalty. 

I don't even live with my husband, but he's on my slightly less bare bones policy at my job because his provides only a $160 monthly stipend, and at this point, his ACA plan would have been $800. Before this, we just didn't have insurance for several years because we weren't poor enough to qualify for state plans. Fortunately, we were allowed to make monthly payments on the penalties. It is dividing by zero level irony.  

It wasn't President Obama's fault it turned out this way, though. We've been in a weird deadlock for thirteen years.

[gustava]

6 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

There are people who are paying the bills.

I wonder if she even has  a checking account?

[SassyPants]

6 hours ago, imokit said:

Anna might have some assets to her name.  JB has a lot things invested in various kids names, and in response (I think to Ashley Madison), a lot things in Josh's name were moved to Anna's.  Property mainly.  I don't know how many or their value, but there is stuff in her name, which depending on how they were done she can access.

Whether it was a bribe from the Duggar borg to her, or an attempt to hide Josh's assets from law suits, who knows.  It may be enough to cause trouble now with applying for welfare though.

Oh I’m sure that JB would have moved those assest from Anna to some other Duggar by now, if it meant that he could get money or benefits for Josh’s kids. And I have ZERO problem with those kids getting money for food, housing and HCI. Their mother is home with a newborn and their dad is in jail, legally speaking, they are destitute. It’s nice that JB has supplied the warehouse and a car, but legally (NOT MORALLY OR ETHICALLY) speaking, he is not required to do so. A safety net is in place in the US for people like Josh’s kids. Heck, like someone said above, Josh is living on the taxpayer dime…I’d rather pay for his kids to eat and be cared for vs that sleaze-

[Beermeet]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:21 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

From people on snark boards and those who have followed the case perhaps, but if I'm a parent who only knows her from the news I'm not going to give a shit about her soul searching or try to understand if her life choices are sincere or not.  I'm going to pull my kid from any contact with her because she's lost the right to benefit of the doubt with the general public. 

I think you're overestimating how much a parent is going to care about her mental state and there are something from which your reputation will never recover and she's already crossed that line.  She's made life changing mistakes and if this wasn't pure conjecture and she ever attempted to work with kids she would see actions have consequences.  Fortunately for her she'll never face those within her little bubble.

 

Agree.  We are talking about public school here.  No way.  I also doubt lots of IFB families would invite Josh to hang out with their kids. A few, sure in a gathering.  Seeing as " this is common",  there will be some but not many.  I imagine them ignoring and just simply not being around Josh.  Who is going to be in prison for quite some time so, nothing to actually do now anyway. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Beermeet

[Mama Mia]

36 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Agree.  We are talking about public school here.  No way.  I also doubt lots of IFB families would invite Josh to hang out with their kids. A few, sure in a gathering.  Seeing as " this is common",  there will be some but not many.  I imagine them ignoring and just simply not being around Josh.  Who is going to be in prison for quite some time so, nothing to actually do now anyway. 

I would bet when Josh does get out, and there are weddings and family gatherings it will be a combination of various brothers being assigned to keep a threatening eye on his movements,  parents hovering closer to their kids than usual, JB/Michelle sticking by his side like glue, and he and/or siblings having work/being ill/ other very important things to do that keep visits non-existent or short except for big milestones like weddings. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

it will be a combination of various brothers being assigned to keep a threatening eye on his movements

You credit them with far more integrity that they deserve.

No one gave a shit before when they knew four of his known victims were sisters.  No one gave a shit when Anna birthed kid after kid who would alone under the umbrella of their serial child predator father.  JD for example gave no fucks about the molestations, but the cheating got him to say he didn't want to be like his brother.

Can you come up with a milder rebuke?  I can't.  

Then had him as a groomsman in their wedding.  

These people do not think like us.  They.  Do. Not. Care. if he hurts children.  They care if he affects their brand.

[SassyPants]

Warning, I had some insomnia last night, so here’s what my mind pondered: Before Josh’s arrest and conviction, he worked at the JB supplied (and likely owned) car lot and lived with his family in the JB owned warehouse. I’d imagine that JB covered the housing, utilities, transportation and insurance costs. I’d assume that the incidentals plus food were left to Smuggar to cover. With Josh gone, what are the arrangements, and if Anna or the children are  in need  of something, does she have to approach JB? BC (before conviction), did Josh and Anna both approach JB for money or did just Josh speak with JB? Since we often talk about Anna having no voice or autonomy in their culture, how does she find that voice and independence now, especially after Dereck acknowledged that JB can be verbally abusive? Is Anna made to grovel if Michael needs new shoes or Mary Ella has an ear ache and needs to see a doctor? To be a fly on the wall. I wonder if Anna ever thinks back to the offers made in 2015? She’d have been so much better off now had she ended it back then.

[Alisamer]

22 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

These people do not think like us.  They.  Do. Not. Care. if he hurts children.  They care if he affects their brand.

And only reluctantly at that... they didn't keep him from family events that would be filmed, or even make any real effort to keep him in the background, they left it up to TLC to carefully film around him. I think if JB had his way, every single scandal would just fade away, after they'd done another redemption special and some interviews, and bumped up viewership by hitting the headlines yet again. 

They just do not seem to understand why this is such a big deal. JB and Michelle, I mean, and Anna, and probably a few others as well. Jill gets it. I think if Jinger doesn't get it, Jeremy does. Joy and Austin probably understand, or at least have an inkling that this is NOT RIGHT and NOT OK, and neither was anything he did as a teen, either. 

But Jim Bob is the one who, during the interview about Josh molesting his sisters, said that it was something that happened often, in many families. He really did not understand why anyone would care about that happening, and figured he'd "repented" so all was OK, and why were people bringing up this ancient history? With Ashley Madison, Josh just made another mistake, but it wasn't really anything illegal, and he'd apologized and repented again. Anna accepted his apology and moved on, why wouldn't the rest of the world? And now? Well yeah, the stuff on his computer was gross and disgusting and illegal, but... it was just pictures! All he did was look at some photos and maybe a couple videos, right? It's not like he DID anything...

That's how they think: He prayed to God for forgiveness so everyone else should forgive him, too. Why is "the world" making such a big deal of this?

[SassyPants]

4 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

And only reluctantly at that... they didn't keep him from family events that would be filmed, or even make any real effort to keep him in the background, they left it up to TLC to carefully film around him. I think if JB had his way, every single scandal would just fade away, after they'd done another redemption special and some interviews, and bumped up viewership by hitting the headlines yet again. 

They just do not seem to understand why this is such a big deal. JB and Michelle, I mean, and Anna, and probably a few others as well. Jill gets it. I think if Jinger doesn't get it, Jeremy does. Joy and Austin probably understand, or at least have an inkling that this is NOT RIGHT and NOT OK, and neither was anything he did as a teen, either. 

But Jim Bob is the one who, during the interview about Josh molesting his sisters, said that it was something that happened often, in many families. He really did not understand why anyone would care about that happening, and figured he'd "repented" so all was OK, and why were people bringing up this ancient history? With Ashley Madison, Josh just made another mistake, but it wasn't really anything illegal, and he'd apologized and repented again. Anna accepted his apology and moved on, why wouldn't the rest of the world? And now? Well yeah, the stuff on his computer was gross and disgusting and illegal, but... it was just pictures! All he did was look at some photos and maybe a couple videos, right? It's not like he DID anything...

That's how they think: He prayed to God for forgiveness so everyone else should forgive him, too. Why is "the world" making such a big deal of this?

From a Christian perspective, I can understand the idea of making a mistake, even a grievous mistake, and the notion of forgiveness, because if imperfect people can not be forgiven for their actions, everyone is hosed. BUT where I differ from the Duggars is: 1) I believe in gradations of sins and 2) I believe in atonement. Josh has had some major missteps and he has never shown to be sorry for his actions, nor has he changed his behaviors. Josh has not atoned for his behaviors. Yes, Josh could be redeemed and forgiven for even his worst actions, but first he’d have to do the hard work and make the needed changes, and at this point, he has shown that he has no interest in doing so. Maybe a long prison  stay will change that, doubtful, but still possible.

[Guanabana]

19 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Honest question:  has JB taken any government assistance that we know of?    We know that many fundies won't take assistance and boast about it, like Gil Bates, and I thought JB was of the same thinking but perhaps I am wrong.   Anyone know?

Gil has taken advantage of government assistance plenty and boasted about it. When asked about medical insurance for a large family he crows about living in the greatest country in the world where he can take his children to the ER for fevers and other PCP maladies, and they have to be treated. The implication being he does pay for the care.

[Alisamer]

8 minutes ago, Guanabana said:

Gil has taken advantage of government assistance plenty and boasted about it. When asked about medical insurance for a large family he crows about living in the greatest country in the world where he can take his children to the ER for fevers and other PCP maladies, and they have to be treated. The implication being he does pay for the care.

As opposed to living in a country where he could do the exact same thing, and have it covered by the national health service? And why would he go to the ER instead of an urgent care, for something like that? I have insurance and my cost for urgent care is $50. My cost for the ER is $1000. Unless I'm dying or it's after urgent care is closed, I'm not going to the ER if I can help it.

What I think he's REALLY saying is that he takes his kids to the ER for things that would be better treated by a PCP or urgent care, because he can then just not pay for it at all and they still are required to treat them if they come in again another time. People like him are the reason hospital and health care costs are so ridiculously high. They up the bills for people who can pay, to cover the people who can't or won't. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

54 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

As opposed to living in a country where he could do the exact same thing, and have it covered by the national health service? And why would he go to the ER instead of an urgent care, for something like that? I have insurance and my cost for urgent care is $50. My cost for the ER is $1000. Unless I'm dying or it's after urgent care is closed, I'm not going to the ER if I can help it.

What I think he's REALLY saying is that he takes his kids to the ER for things that would be better treated by a PCP or urgent care, because he can then just not pay for it at all and they still are required to treat them if they come in again another time. People like him are the reason hospital and health care costs are so ridiculously high. They up the bills for people who can pay, to cover the people who can't or won't. 

That is exactly what he's saying.  Implied is no well child care visits since ER does do this.  What a world class piece of shit.

[Jana814]

I have never had a job where I was offered health insurance. I have always had my own. It was something that if need be I would cut other things out in order to cover my monthly bill but that has never happened. When my monthly bill comes in the mail I immediately pay it. 

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

From a Christian perspective, I can understand the idea of making a mistake, even a grievous mistake, and the notion of forgiveness, because if imperfect people can not be forgiven for their actions, everyone is hosed. BUT where I differ from the Duggars is: 1) I believe in gradations of sins and 2) I believe in atonement. Josh has had some major missteps and he has never shown to be sorry for his actions, nor has he changed his behaviors. Josh has not atoned for his behaviors. Yes, Josh could be redeemed and forgiven for even his worst actions, but first he’d have to do the hard work and make the needed changes, and at this point, he has shown that he has no interest in doing so. Maybe a long prison  stay will change that, doubtful, but still possible.

I have dropped many religious beliefs over the years as I slowly progressed from being an active Catholic, to slightly less active, to the "I show up at Easter and Christmas mass", all to way to where I consider myself spiritual but not particularly religious.  One thing that took awhile to let go of was this belief that if someone wrongs me, I must eventually find a way to forgive them.  I choose not to hold grudges but there are some acts that I find unforgivable, and acts that cause harm to children are included in that.  So if I knew a Josh or had one in my family, even if he supposedly repented and tried to atone (by doing what exactly, I'm not sure), I wouldn't trust that person, and would choose not to spend time in their presence.  I certainly would never allow any minor children to be around them, no matter how many other adults were present, like at a family birthday party or wedding.  

Josh has shown zero remorse or even acknowledged he has committed illegal acts.  His defense was "someone else did this."  He's had years to hone his ability to lie, cover up, put on a false front, and enjoy the benefits of being a white male in his religious circle.  I've seen no evidence that he has the ability to self-reflect, to be humble, or to even admit wrong-doing.  I think his mind is so warped by this point, that when he has served his sentence and is released, it won't be long before he gives in and returns to his old ways.

[waltraute]

I don't think Anna is as meek as we are making her out to be. Wasn't she considered the bossy one of her family? I skirted the Fundie circles in my youth (long story) and I can tell you that there is a difference between the appearance of being meek, which is adopted by many women in the cult, and actually BEING meek and subservient. Many women had ways of manipulating things behind the scenes to work things in their favor. It's not the same as having true power or autonomy, but it also isn't complete lemming territory either.

Michelle is not a doormat, and I don't think Anna is either. She seems like she has a stubborn streak. She has taken on the role of subservient wife, and I think she buys into that role and has found an identity in it, but I think she has internal grit. Unfortunately, right now I think we're seeing that stubborn grit in her refusal to accept reality and her determination to stand by Josh - because that is what she wants and not necessarily because she thinks it's what she should do.

I think ultimately Anna does what she wants, and she wants Josh.

Edited February 2, 2022 by waltraute

[Guanabana]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

As opposed to living in a country where he could do the exact same thing, and have it covered by the national health service? And why would he go to the ER instead of an urgent care, for something like that? I have insurance and my cost for urgent care is $50. My cost for the ER is $1000. Unless I'm dying or it's after urgent care is closed, I'm not going to the ER if I can help it.

What I think he's REALLY saying is that he takes his kids to the ER for things that would be better treated by a PCP or urgent care, because he can then just not pay for it at all and they still are required to treat them if they come in again another time. People like him are the reason hospital and health care costs are so ridiculously high. They up the bills for people who can pay, to cover the people who can't or won't. 

I’m an idiot and failed to edit before posting. Yes, the implication being he doesn’t pay the ER bills. Sorry for the confusion. What else can be expected from a man who proudly lectured about having a large family with no income. 

[neuroticcat]

They do not see the abuse as significant because they fundamentally do not see children as worthy of dignity or humanity. Children are arrows, blessings. Soldiers for the Lord, servants- anything but individuals with inherent dignity and value. 

[Anna Bolinas]

On 2/1/2022 at 2:27 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Or set up a Go-Fund Me to leave her in-laws if they are forcing her to stay married to her husband.

I think you're overestimating how many people would contribute to that Go-Fund Me. There is a lot of antipathy towards Anna here and on the fundie snark subreddits. I have no idea how Duggar fans would react to Anna leaving. In the wider world, it's the rare Go-Fund Me that achieves any kind of national recognition, and while Anna has a leg up in that she married into a D-list celebrity family, she also has a leg down in the sense that said family is mostly known for being religious nutjobs and defending pedophilia. And Anna isn't just one of the Duggar kids--she's the wife of the pedophile, the one who stayed with him during the Ashley Madison scandal and the molestation scandal and the entirety of the trial. She could make a good argument that she is a victim of the cult, and she could try to say that being at the trial is what opened her eyes, but I don't know if that would make the money pour in. Maybe if she foregrounded helping her kids instead of helping her, but still.

Anna and her kids are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Which is by design.