(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

I go for not thinking it was a crime. That line of thinking is straight out of ATI. 

And also ATI/IBLP constantly criticized secular authority sources as dangerous and then created their own alternatives - like ALERT - or just dismissed their authority, like CPS. So I think there’s an indirect arrogance that secular authority actually doesn’t have the right standards; ours are superior.

[EvilAthiest]

2 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Having been on a cable TV show may actually cause even more negative attention in his direction. As it is, he'll need to huddle up with brother pedophiles and try to stay away from other inmates to the extent possible. Prison isn't safe for men like Josh.

Do federal prisons automatically put people convicted of certain crimes, especially crimes against children, into protective custody and away from the general inmate population?  Or have I seen too much TV?

I am also very interested to find out what his former cellmate has to say.  I’ve read he is a prior sex offender.  I want to find out how much of an idiot Josh really is, blabbing things to a cellmate he just met.

[neuroticcat]

3 hours ago, Freejin said:

But she has so much access to people outside the cult - siblings, Amy, etc. At a certain point isn’t it just a choice to stay in abusive situations?

Yes. If she is still operating in the cult, though, she will tell herself she is doing the right and godly thing. This is why I think it was hopeful to see Derrick reaching out to her. In my opinion, something like that is the only thing that will help her actually get out. Not just the option of support but someone to literally hold her hand and help her see that the godly/right thing is to leave.

3 hours ago, SPHASH said:

I think Jed! will testify on Josh's behalf as he worked at the car dealership.  Plus he needs JB's money if he wants a political career.

I hope Jed is independent enough to tell the truth. I wonder if losing his political race so badly woke him up a bit. I haven’t followed his adult choices. He’s married, right, but is he on his own or still dependent on JB? For many of the adult kids it seems marrying outside of ATI was the first step away.

3 hours ago, Freejin said:

 

Guys. How are we going to deal with having to wait so long for a verdict??

And does anyone know if any of the duggars went to the bates wedding?

I think Jeremiah was there? And someone mentioned a Duggar plane flying out to TN?

[cheeseandrice]

Been lurking here and on reddit a long time and thought I was prepared for this weeks trial but hearing it all again, put forth rapid fire in a straight line has left me shaken.  I have not ever been an Anna sympathizer but if any of this info is getting through to her I have developed a modicum of sympathy.  Where she goes moving forward will tell the tale.  But when your whole life you have been told that the cold dark hole you live in is the only safe place, it has got to be hard to take those first steps into the light.  I hope, with all I have that Derrick and Jill are there for her. (Can not believe I just typed that)

Anyway, I found myeslf sitting in an LDS funeral service this morning.  (I live in Utah, work for my city and it was one of our councilmen who passed) The man giving the Eulogy went on about the couple and how good they were and that included a description of a wife. Apparently we are to bear their children, clean their homes and cook countless meals.  It was hard to sit through.  and I think that following the trial this week made me more sensitive.  Because even though I do see culturally here how that model sometimes works for the LDS that are raised that way, I also know that it is the exact thing that can leave women and children vulnerable.  So yes, it ruffled my feathers to say the least.  but I sat there, kept sweet lol and got the hell out as soon as the benediction was done.  And yes I know LDS is not fundie exactly but there are similar ideologies.

[3KidsAndStopped]

17 minutes ago, EvilAthiest said:

Do federal prisons automatically put people convicted of certain crimes, especially crimes against children, into protective custody and away from the general inmate population?  Or have I seen too much TV?

 

In the UK, they do. HMP Wakefield is colloquially known as Monster Mansion. Most prisons housing sex offenders will have a protective wing here as well.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I was thinking about something this morning and I want to write it carefully as I don't want it to be misinterpreted as speculation.  I am not speculating about abuse, I've heard a rumor that it's against the rules here

People have said many times, and it's true, of the hypocrisy of Jill needing permission to visit and be around her siblings while they let the predator live there.  That Jill wanting to be fairly paid for her work on the show was worse to JB and M than Josh's sex crimes.

 I think keeping Jill away unless supervised was probably more sinister than the bruise to the Duggar ego and pocketbook.  She was in therapy.  She was open about coming to terms with the CSA.  She made some posts empowering for other victims of abuse.  She was beginning to see things clearly and I think that scared the shit out of her parents.

I bet there was a fear if she were allowed unfettered access that she might be the one to check on the little girls to make sure nothing happened to them.  If she did that the little ones would know who to go to if someone hurt them. They'd know who would believe them.  

Also, as the scales had fallen from her eyes regarding the abuse so may be the one more likely to recognize the signs.  Can't have someone like that around without a chaperone.

I'm not saying there was abuse to find, but I don't think Michelle or JB could ever be certain of that.  I think the all but shunning of Jill was to keep someone who wasn't demonstrating denial about abuse from the family for fear of the unknown.  

I need more pleasant shower thoughts.

[neuroticcat]

8 minutes ago, cheeseandrice said:

Been lurking here and on reddit a long time and thought I was prepared for this weeks trial but hearing it all again, put forth rapid fire in a straight line has left me shaken.  I have not ever been an Anna sympathizer but if any of this info is getting through to her I have developed a modicum of sympathy.  Where she goes moving forward will tell the tale.  But when your whole life you have been told that the cold dark hole you live in is the only safe place, it has got to be hard to take those first steps into the light.  I hope, with all I have that Derrick and Jill are there for her. (Can not believe I just typed that)

Anyway, I found myeslf sitting in an LDS funeral service this morning.  (I live in Utah, work for my city and it was one of our councilmen who passed) The man giving the Eulogy went on about the couple and how good they were and that included a description of a wife. Apparently we are to bear their children, clean their homes and cook countless meals.  It was hard to sit through.  and I think that following the trial this week made me more sensitive.  Because even though I do see culturally here how that model sometimes works for the LDS that are raised that way, I also know that it is the exact thing that can leave women and children vulnerable.  So yes, it ruffled my feathers to say the least.  but I sat there, kept sweet lol and got the hell out as soon as the benediction was done.  And yes I know LDS is not fundie exactly but there are similar ideologies.

I often think of the fundie Mormons when discussing the Duggars. There is a lot of shared values and mind control overlap.

[3KidsAndStopped]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I was thinking about something this morning and I want to write it carefully as I don't want it to be misinterpreted as speculation.  I am not speculating about abuse, I've heard a rumor that it's against the rules here

People have said many times, and it's true, of the hypocrisy of Jill needing permission to visit and be around her siblings while they let the predator live there.  That Jill wanting to be fairly paid for her work on the show was worse to JB and M than Josh's sex crimes.

 I think keeping Jill away unless supervised was probably more sinister than the bruise to the Duggar ego and pocketbook.  She was in therapy.  She was open about coming to terms with the CSA.  She made some posts empowering for other victims of abuse.  She was beginning to see things clearly and I think that scared the shit out of her parents.

I bet there was a fear if she were allowed unfettered access that she might be the one to check on the little girls to make sure nothing happened to them.  If she did that the little ones would know who to go to if someone hurt them. They'd know who would believe them.  

Also, as the scales had fallen from her eyes regarding the abuse so may be the one more likely to recognize the signs.  Can't have someone like that around without a chaperone.

I'm not saying there was abuse to find, but I don't think Michelle or JB could ever be certain of that.  I think the all but shunning of Jill was to keep someone who wasn't demonstrating denial about abuse from the family for fear of the unknown.  

I need more pleasant shower thoughts.

You are bang on the money here, they can't be having someone watlzing in embracing something as inconvenient as the truth and decency intruding into their Gothard bubble!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Saw on Reddit that Hillary Spivey posted something in defense of sweet Justin and his thumbs up pic.  I'm laughing so hard.

[neuroticcat]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I was thinking about something this morning and I want to write it carefully as I don't want it to be misinterpreted as speculation.  I am not speculating about abuse, I've heard a rumor that it's against the rules here

People have said many times, and it's true, of the hypocrisy of Jill needing permission to visit and be around her siblings while they let the predator live there.  That Jill wanting to be fairly paid for her work on the show was worse to JB and M than Josh's sex crimes.

 I think keeping Jill away unless supervised was probably more sinister than the bruise to the Duggar ego and pocketbook.  She was in therapy.  She was open about coming to terms with the CSA.  She made some posts empowering for other victims of abuse.  She was beginning to see things clearly and I think that scared the shit out of her parents.

I bet there was a fear if she were allowed unfettered access that she might be the one to check on the little girls to make sure nothing happened to them.  If she did that the little ones would know who to go to if someone hurt them. They'd know who would believe them.  

Also, as the scales had fallen from her eyes regarding the abuse so may be the one more likely to recognize the signs.  Can't have someone like that around without a chaperone.

I'm not saying there was abuse to find, but I don't think Michelle or JB could ever be certain of that.  I think the all but shunning of Jill was to keep someone who wasn't demonstrating denial about abuse from the family for fear of the unknown.  

I need more pleasant shower thoughts.

I agree! I think that when you add in the inability/refusal for those inside the cult to accurately articulate abuse, any fear of her “influence” would indeed have included that. She was breaking free of the whole umbrella, which they knew comes with redefinition. (Those little kid definition pages from IBLP are still some of the creepiest propaganda to me). An insider who left would be able to point out the definitions - of any number of things - weren’t accurate and offer an alternative. 

[Smee]

7 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Agree. I was going over with my husband last night about when she should have walked away. And we decided it was when she found out about his past with his sisters. Whenever that was, that she fully understood what he had done, in particular with the five year old victim, she ought to have thought about potential or existing children of her own and got them well away from that potential danger. Her responsibility is first and foremost to the children who never asked to be there or to have that life. It is her job as a mother to protect and advocate for them, and that should have been the breaking point. The fact that it wasn’t is what is wrong here with her. I feel sympathy because I’m a sympathetic person and I know she has to be in hell right now, but as a mother myself, I hold her fully accountable as a grown woman who has more resources than most to get out of the situation she is in. 

The thing is, at that point in time there was no evidence (that could be used in a family law court) that JB’s bullshit about teenage curiosity and repenting and blah blah was wrong. There was no evidence that her children were in danger. So odds were high that if Josh fought for partial custody he would win it (especially if JB funded a lawyer) and her daughters would be stuck with Daddy on a regular basis with no Mommy there to watch him. In Anna’s mind she may have been in a better position to protect them by staying with him. Which is just fucking devastating that ANY mother has to make that choice.

I think Anna has failed her children and the fact that she’s now in court with Josh instead of at home cuddling them and caring for her NEWBORN is reprehensible. She also was not required to be all #littleduggars and try to worm her way back on tv; she would have been better off using her energies to carefully prepare an escape plan and find reasons to stop being so joyfully available at fertile times. But I don’t have a whole lot of room in my brain to hate her, I’m too busy hating Josh and his foul excuses for parents.

[imokit]

Honestly, I think that Anna now is doing the safest thing for her children.  She should have left him a long time ago, she should definitely have left him when she heard what she was arrested for.  But she didn't.  Whether its because she's in a cult or because she genuinely believed he was innocent, she stayed.

Leaving now midway through a trial is stupid.  He doesn't have unsupervised access to the kids.  She stands by her man, her community feel sorry for her.  He gets off, she's the sainted wife.  He goes to jail, she has years to thing about things and plan and decide whether or not to stay.  She also experiences single motherhood. Right now she has 7 children including a newborn, working would involve massive childcare billls.   When Josh gets out of jail, she will have school age/teen children.  She'll be in far better position.

I'm not saying she will leave in the future, but leaving now is the most silly time to leave. 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, imokit said:

Honestly, I think that Anna now is doing the safest thing for her children.  She should have left him a long time ago, she should definitely have left him when she heard what she was arrested for.  But she didn't.  Whether its because she's in a cult or because she genuinely believed he was innocent, she stayed.

Leaving now midway through a trial is stupid.  He doesn't have unsupervised access to the kids.  She stands by her man, her community feel sorry for her.  He gets off, she's the sainted wife.  He goes to jail, she has years to thing about things and plan and decide whether or not to stay.  She also experiences single motherhood. Right now she has 7 children including a newborn, working would involve massive childcare billls.   When Josh gets out of jail, she will have school age/teen children.  She'll be in far better position.

I'm not saying she will leave in the future, but leaving now is the most silly time to leave. 

Anna is doing the easy wrong vs the hard right, that’s what it all boils down to.

[Dandruff]

6 hours ago, EyesOpen said:

It’s confusing to me that dugger family official is not being monitored or shut down right now… the comments range from snarky to downright nasty. I’m all for being these people to account  in the light but … what’s going on? Do they no longer have minders? Are they just… busy and forgot they have a Facebook page and people are just trashing them? I don’t get it

Maybe they're just letting it happen, allowing people to vent, waiting for ill things to pass.  I could see them shutting it down if/when he's convicted though.

5 hours ago, Xan said:

Eventually, it seemed to occur to Jim Bob that maybe Josh had very strong urges and that he needed to get him married off as soon as possible.  How many families did he contact about future brides?  Were there many rejections before he settled on the Kellers?  And what was it?  Were they just fundie enough and just far away enough from Arkansas that he could get by with minimizing stories about Josh?  Were Mike and Suzette just clueless enough to believe him?  Well, that last one is an obvious yes.  I think JB told  them some story about curiosity and pornography and assured them that Josh had turned over a new leaf.  

Once Jim Bob and Michelle roped Anna in, they decided that Josh was her problem.  They didn't ever really try to address the situation nor did they get help for their daughters.  I hope their name is mud from here on out.

I think they probably went to ATI Family Camp and let him loose with instruction to find candidates, and don't forget to play nice.  They then vetted the families and chose the one they expected to require the least explanation and reinforcement.

5 hours ago, SPHASH said:

Federal inmates have to serve 85% of their sentences in prison then 15% under house arrest.

15% stuck at home with his potentially still-young children?  I don't like that thought.

3 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

In prison he will find out no one knows or cares he used to be a tv star golden boy. 

My current impression is rancid dough boy.  Wonder what theirs might be.

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Wonder if JB had her sign a NDA

I'd be amazed if JB didn't take every step possible to try to protect his stuff, whether or not it's ultimately enforceable.  Those who might be inclined to spill beans would probably think twice if they had to really work for it and take risks to do so.

 

[Idlewild]

4 hours ago, Freejin said:

This all makes sense. But in your experience, is there ever a moment when the person has to come clean, emotionally, to themselves and their family once a guilty verdict is reached?

I can’t recall a CSA case where that has happened - I can remember other types of offences where the defendant has stood trial and then at the sentencing hearing their counsel has said that they now accept what they did, rather than just accepting the verdict of the jury.

It’s hard to imagine how Josh will behave if convicted. He always comes across as cocky and smug, but I can also see him being frightened and angry.

[zee_four]

56 minutes ago, cheeseandrice said:

Been lurking here and on reddit a long time and thought I was prepared for this weeks trial but hearing it all again, put forth rapid fire in a straight line has left me shaken.  I have not ever been an Anna sympathizer but if any of this info is getting through to her I have developed a modicum of sympathy.  Where she goes moving forward will tell the tale.  But when your whole life you have been told that the cold dark hole you live in is the only safe place, it has got to be hard to take those first steps into the light.  I hope, with all I have that Derrick and Jill are there for her. (Can not believe I just typed that)

Anyway, I found myeslf sitting in an LDS funeral service this morning.  (I live in Utah, work for my city and it was one of our councilmen who passed) The man giving the Eulogy went on about the couple and how good they were and that included a description of a wife. Apparently we are to bear their children, clean their homes and cook countless meals.  It was hard to sit through.  and I think that following the trial this week made me more sensitive.  Because even though I do see culturally here how that model sometimes works for the LDS that are raised that way, I also know that it is the exact thing that can leave women and children vulnerable.  So yes, it ruffled my feathers to say the least.  but I sat there, kept sweet lol and got the hell out as soon as the benediction was done.  And yes I know LDS is not fundie exactly but there are similar ideologies.

Are you on the Wasatch Front?

Their version of LDS is the more fundie type. I'm Polynesian and a good deal of my ohana is LDS and they're definitely not like that with really strong women leading families. I also lived in Utah myself but I was in Moab and the Four Corners region which at 30% LDS is like the least LDS part of Utah even PC is more LDS. But yeah Utah County and even SLC LDS is like Bible Belt fundies of Mormons. Not defending the LDS Church just letting you know there is some variation. Utah would be so great if it weren't for it being well Utah. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by zee_four
As much as fondue sounds delicious we're talking about fundies silly autocorrect

[Shrubbery]

11 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

 

I'd be amazed if JB didn't take every step possible to try to protect his stuff, whether or not it's ultimately enforceable.  Those who might be inclined to spill beans would probably think twice if they had to really work for it and take risks to do so.

 

JB protects his worldly assets much better than his children, who, apart from being, you know, his children, whom he is supposed to love, are also, or so his theology says, his assets in the fight against Satan and the unbelievers.

What was that thing again about the camel and the eye of the needle, and in what little-known book did I read about it?

[Idlewild]

40 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Saw on Reddit that Hillary Spivey posted something in defense of sweet Justin and his thumbs up pic.  I'm laughing so hard.

Oh please- she can’t help herself, can she? The trial news is moving so quickly they could have just left it and it would be forgotten. What did she say?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Oh please- she can’t help herself, can she? The trial news is moving so quickly they could have just left it and it would be forgotten. What did she say?

Oh I forgot to link it, sorry edible kicked in.  I'll find it and edit this post, just gimme a few.

From 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[FiveAcres]

9 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Oh I forgot to link it, sorry edible kicked in.  I'll find it and edit this post, just gimme a few.

From 

 

HS is a very stupid woman, so she fits right in with the Duggars. 

[Gobsmacked]

4 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I don't see Josh taking any classes in prison. He's done nothing to demonstrate he cares about furthering his education and I don't see prison miraculously changing that.   

 

He has never been in any situation akin to prison. His ditch digging/house building whilst bald wasn’t the same at all. He is going to have very long days to fill. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I love the "with the media you can never win" bit.  Except that via the media even people who revile Derek and Austin have had very positive things to say about their presence.  Maybe it was taking it seriously and not like you're photobombing an episode of TRL is what did it.

[Idlewild]

So mature married Justin needs his mommy in law to explain why he thought a thumbs up and a cheeky smile was appropriate for a CSA trial?
Some acknowledgement of the victims of these horrible crimes might be a good idea Mrs S, not just a pity party for Anna. 

[St.Clara]

10 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

From 

 

Thank you for the link!

Hilary says something stupid along the lines of Justin not wanting to have any "negativity documented".

Reddit User Yondertheregoes nails it in his response: "Justin. Dude. It’s a trial about CP. There is literally no positivity that should be documented, unless your bro is convicted." 👍

[Idlewild]

Oh and you were thrilled when your daughter hooked up with the Duggars and was being filmed, giving interviews in People etc, so don’t go moaning about the media.