(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[Jackie3]

6 minutes ago, EvilAthiest said:

I do not believe you meant to offend people who have been abused.  I was with you right up until the last sentence.  But that last sentence, on top of this entire situation along with years of horrible memories, made me burst into tears.

Many people reading this are SURVIVORS of abuse.  It is not “always the weakest”.  You must not understand the strength it takes to overcome (as best we can) unspeakable acts that happened when we were innocent children.  WE ARE NOT WEAK.  WE ARE SURVIVORS.

Actually, the abuser usually targets the strongest one. The one they can't break. It drives them crazy they can't make them cower. I think the person writing doesn't know much about abuse.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

34 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Did the judge say the whole trial is likely to be done and dusted by mid next week? If so, there aren’t going to be many defence witnesses if you include closing statements in that estimate. Any  defence expert is likely to be a lengthy testimony as would Josh himself. 

According to one of the local TV reporters, the judge did say this should wrap up by Tuesday, Wednesday at the latest. Mercifully. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Idk if it's because FJ talks about topics that resonate with people who have been abused or if it's because people are more open about it in an anonymous forum than irl, but it seems to me we have more survivors of abuse than an average sampling of the general public.

Even not counting the members who came from cults where abuse was inherent.  

Regardless of the stats know for a fact that whatever you type here will be read by many abuse survivors both immediately and future people going down rabbit holes.  

No one deserved it.  No one was abused because they were weak, or too strong willed, or for anything else about them.  Everyone was abused because of the actions and character of their abuser.  Full stop.  The shame lies with them and any other adult who knew and did nothing.

We need to take care with how we word things.  A lot of people are hurting right now, reading about this opening old wounds but being unable to look away because it's better to face it with others than alone.

Be kind to each other.

[Not that josh's mom]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

Forgive my ignorance,  has Anna said that or has JB said it's a government plot type thing?   Are we speculating because that generally how these folks think?  It's probably true but just wondering if any of them has said such a thing. 

I read somewhere that Anna believed and said that if Trump were still president the arrest wouldn't have happen.  That the evil Dems (Biden) were out to frame Josh. Like why would anyone care about Josh Duggar?anyway like so many other things that have been reported, it might not be 100% true, but I can believe it.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Not that josh's mom said:

I read somewhere that Anna believed and said that if Trump were still president the arrest wouldn't have happen.  That the evil Dems (Biden) were out to frame Josh. Like why would anyone care about Josh Duggar?anyway like so many other things that have been reported, it might not be 100% true, but I can believe it.

The raid happened when Trump was in office.  One of the arguments his lawyers made to try to get the case dismissed initially was that there were some issue with the chair of homeland security's acting appointment (under Trump) that the order to investigate was invalid since there was no real head of homeland security at the time.

I don't recall all the details but the judge didn't buy it, obviously.

 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

One of the arguments his lawyers made to try to get the case dismissed initially was that there were some issue with the chair of homeland security's acting appointment (under Trump) that the order to investigate was invalid since there was no real head of homeland security at the time.

I don't recall all the details but the judge didn't buy it, obviously.

 

Emily D. Baker didn't think the argument had a chance in hell (and it didn't work) but she admired the creativity of Josh's attorneys.

[Bassett Lady]

7 hours ago, SPHASH said:

I think Jed! will testify on Josh's behalf as he worked at the car dealership

I think Jed will tell the truth, whatever the question may be. I don’t anticipate him feigning ignorance like his father nor trying to obfuscate like the young Waller. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Kayleigh83 said:

I googled “Bobye Holt Josh Duggar” and found multiple articles from days ago talking about her testimony at the pre-trial hearing Monday, where her testimony helped the judge decide to allow the facts of Josh’s past into the trial itself. I think there has been some confusion on the timing of that testimony, perhaps because it was mentioned again on Thursday or Friday (ie: the point at which these facts were in fact admitted in the trial, as it had been decided they could be earlier in the week). Not sure if this meant playing the video of her testifying, having her on the stand again, or just the facts of her testimony being read aloud.

I don’t see a mention about her advising Jim Bob to buy a bigger house, so I don’t know if that’s untrue, or if it was left out of the reports. The only reason I could think of why a publication might not include that detail, would be that the topic at hand is Josh and his behaviour. Possibly including a detail like that could be a sticky area legally since it’s more like hearsay about Jim Bob and his negligence and bad parenting, than accepted facts about Josh and his crimes? Maybe some more legally informed folks could weigh in on that….

It is always possible that part was an embellishment. But most of the facts of Bobye’s testimony seem to line up and the issue of when it happened seems to be just confusion so far as I can tell.

I haven’t been able to get access to Fundie Wonderland, so I am only guessing here, but it is possible that things Bobye Holt told someone outside her court testimony is being mixed up with the testimony itself.

The biggest problem with the FW account though was that we had the impression it was in real time but it sounds like it was at best a rehashing of what Mrs Holt had said in the pre-trial.  This may have been simply because someone was posting about the pre-trial as a prelude to what they thought she would say.  The reference to listening to a recording makes no sense, both because it isn’t mentioned anywhere else and because I don’t think that happens in trials. 

The stuff about Anna crying just could be interpretation.  Various people reported she was looking down a lot of the times.  Maybe she wiped her eyes too.  Who knows?

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

I think Jed will tell the truth, whatever the question may be. I don’t anticipate him feigning ignorance like his father nor trying to obfuscate like the young Waller. 

Curious as to why you think this. I don't know him, but isn't he one of the sons fully dependent on Jim Bob? I think he was the only, or one of the only, adult offspring at that Christmas parade/rally thing for JB last week.

[Giraffe]

6 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

I think Jed will tell the truth, whatever the question may be. I don’t anticipate him feigning ignorance like his father nor trying to obfuscate like the young Waller. 

Time will tell. It will certainly be a good indication of what kind of integrity he has. 

[Beermeet]

5 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

The arrogance of telling a judge, a federal judge mind you, what he should do in his court is pretty amazing. 

It says a lot about JB's mindset.  Trump definitely emboldened people like him to boot.  

For Anna to be there with a newborn to tend to, but no Michelle is.....interesting.   M can robocall and cover for Josh on national TV but she won't do even 1 day in court is telling too.  

These people are sick in the head.  M wasn't even a practicing Christian growing up, she wasn't raised like this.  How TF did she not do anything when they lived in the tiny house?  Her mama bear isn't activated?  

TY to those who shared thoughts on Anna.  I was on the fence but I definitely feel more understanding of her now.  The emotions this woman has buried while either pregnant or newly given birth is insane.  I really can't think of what I would do compared to her, it's too different of a world.  She thinks I'm all evil and stuff and probably can't understand why I'm not anymore than I can understand her life.  That's why I want her to see what Josh was looking at, hoping it will trigger something deep inside her.  At least so she definitely knows and no one can sugar coat it.  In that respect,  I'm glad she's there.  Although,  I'm pretty sure she is having to and it's not necessarily a choice like it would be for me. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Beermeet

[neuroticcat]

25 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Idk if it's because FJ talks about topics that resonate with people who have been abused or if it's because people are more open about it in an anonymous forum than irl, but it seems to me we have more survivors of abuse than an average sampling of the general public.

Even not counting the members who came from cults where abuse was inherent.  

Regardless of the stats know for a fact that whatever you type here will be read by many abuse survivors both immediately and future people going down rabbit holes.  

No one deserved it.  No one was abused because they were weak, or too strong willed, or for anything else about them.  Everyone was abused because of the actions and character of their abuser.  Full stop.  The shame lies with them and any other adult who knew and did nothing.

We need to take care with how we word things.  A lot of people are hurting right now, reading about this opening old wounds but being unable to look away because it's better to face it with others than alone.

Be kind to each other.

I don’t know why it is we have greater than average number of survivors here, but I know I’m talking Duggars with my therapist next week. Thankful for the ways this community here has helped bring clarity (and humor!) to a difficult process.

[G33kywife]

9 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I haven’t been able to get access to Fundie Wonderland, so I am only guessing here, but it is possible that things Bobye Holt told someone outside her court testimony is being mixed up with the testimony itself.

The biggest problem with the FW account though was that we had the impression it was in real time but it sounds like it was at best a rehashing of what Mrs Holt had said in the pre-trial. 

The way the post has been structured, the OP was regularly updating her post as things happened (according to her). Updates were numbered and often included a time too. It’s shady. 

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

but it is possible that things Bobye Holt told someone outside her court testimony is being mixed up with the testimony itself.

That is what I’m beginning to wonder happened. This inside source knew stories not told in court and for when they were rehashing the Monday pretrial they mixed up what happened with what they knew. Or it is possible they know what Bobye is going to say and jumped in with the supposed recap of court not realizing that she didn’t testify. Which would explain why the story changed multiple times. 
 

I won’t be shocked if next week Bobye does tell that story while testifying. 

[Beermeet]

Just now, formergothardite said:

That is what I’m beginning to wonder happened. This inside source knew stories not told in court and for when they were rehashing the Monday pretrial they mixed up what happened with what they knew. Or it is possible they know what Bobye is going to say and jumped in with the supposed recap of court not realizing that she didn’t testify. Which would explain why the story changed multiple times. 
 

I won’t be shocked if next week Bobye does tell that story while testifying. 

I was thinking the same thing.  

[livinginthelight]

6 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thank you for this.  

With your professional expertise how likely do you think it is that Anna will eventually see the light and start to prioritize her children?  

This is a great question and the honest answer is, I have no idea. A lot depends on what therapists might call "ego strength" and because I haven't ever watched the show, I have no idea how strong her most adult part of self might be. Here are some thoughts though...

When someone is raised in an environment in which stated reality does not match what the child sees/perceives with their own senses, a child starts to develop divisions within themself. Example: a child hears "God has placed men in charge of women for the good of the family. If you love God you will obey your father and your future husband and you will be blessed." But maybe dad is abusive, or maybe mother is clearly better equipped to lead the family but submits to dad's erratic whims to the detriment of the family. The child, on some level, knows that what they are seeing with their own eyes does not match what they are being told. Dad is NOT a wise and loving leader. But to question this is to question God. Who wants to do that? And to question Dad would be the same, as God has placed him in authority. The child NEEDS their parents. Alice Miller has a wonderful quote, which I couldn't find, something to this effect: The child will cling to the parents when bombs are falling, even if the parent is the bomb.

How to make sense of the dilemma? The answer is to develop internal partitions. Some therapists refer to them as "boxes". The boxes can't touch because the beliefs within them are incompatible. Another term for this is dissociation. There is a continuum of dissociation. We all dissociate some. The mild end would be like when we are at the movies and the lead character dies and we cry, even though we know it's just a story. At the other end is multiple personality disorder (now called dissociative identity disorder). People who have been abused, like Anna, usually fall somewhere in between. For example, she is probably completely unaware, consciously, of that healthy part of her that knows she was fed a load of BS and is furious. It's in a box, tucked away in a corner.

Another way of looking at Anna's dissociation is, she's in a hypnotic trance. The likelihood of the trance being broken depends on how deep and strong it is.

I agree 100% with those who said her lack of response at the trial is due to dissociation. She's not an uncaring bitch, she's literally in a trance, brainwashed by the cult. She's numb. I also agree with the person who said that anger - ANY anger, no matter where it's directed, will help bring her out of it. Exactly. Because it can ultimately connect with her anger at her whole messed-up circumstance.

Mind control is a powerful thing. Anna must be VERY dissociated. A lot of mothers, even when they don't recognize the severity of their own childhood abuse, will connect with an adult protective part/mama bear side when their children are threatened. Anna obviously didn't. Is she ultimately responsible for her lack of action? Yes. Do I have sympathy for her circumstances? Yes. It's easy to demonize her but I've worked with enough cult survivors that I get how powerful the brainwashing is.

Factors that will influence her ability to break the trance/come to her senses/protect her children include:

- How deep her programming/dissociation actually is

- Who the major voices are in her life. Is there anyone speaking the truth? Or are they repeating the party line? I know her brother was encouraging her to get out, but what is the position of her parents?

- How strong is her (hidden) sense of self? To admit the truth will be to acknowledge that her life has been built on a stack of lies. This is difficult for anyone to face.

- Does she see any viable way forward in terms of how to support 7 children? If not, it will be easier for her to live in denial.

Ultimately it comes down to whether the pressure to stay in denial is stronger than the pressure to wake up. For the sake of the children, I hope she is able to manage to listen to any people who are trying to help her.

Edited December 5, 2021 by livinginthelight

[gustava]

25 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Time will tell. It will certainly be a good indication of what kind of integrity he has. 

He's being called by the PROSECUTOR.

[EmCatlyn]

52 minutes ago, EvilAthiest said:

I do not believe you meant to offend people who have been abused.  I was with you right up until the last sentence.  But that last sentence, on top of this entire situation along with years of horrible memories, made me burst into tears.

Many people reading this are SURVIVORS of abuse.  It is not “always the weakest”.  You must not understand the strength it takes to overcome (as best we can) unspeakable acts that happened when we were innocent children.  WE ARE NOT WEAK.  WE ARE SURVIVORS.

First: I am sorry you had to live through that.  I am glad you survived.♥️

Second: When I read statements about people preying on the weakest and using them as scapegoats, I don’t think of the victims as weak. If they survive at all it is because they are very strong. If they don’t survive (by which I mean emerge able to have a meaningful life in spite of what was done to them) I entirely blame the abuser (not the victim for being “weak”).

Third: People may be perceived as weak by others and still be strong.  Children can be physically weak and dependent and make good scapegoats, but children grow and often show how much stronger they are. Survivors may have been “victims” once, but they aren’t any more.

Just my two cents.  Hang in there. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, gustava said:

He's being called by the PROSECUTOR.

As were Jim Bob (albeit during pre-trial) and David Waller's brother, who royally pissed off the prosecution. 

[SPHASH]

3 minutes ago, gustava said:

He's being called by the PROSECUTOR.

Where did you see that?

[Tatar-tot]

6 hours ago, EyesOpen said:

Yes I think JB is litigious. I think he’s been involved in many cases about his properties etc and yes I suspect they had everyone sign documents wayyyy back when we still could feel sorry for an impressionable Anna and I doubt she had any idea what she was signing

It would be easier for her to break an NDA or a Pre-Nup if she was not represented by legal counsel…..”Hello. Gloria Aldridge do I have the case for you……”

[Bethy]

5 hours ago, KSmom said:

As far as Anna goes, she is in an incredibly tragic position and I have sympathy for that. However, she has 7 children she has a responsibility towards and that should be priority #1 for her. 

Here's the thing though - in fundie doctrine, it's always 100% the marriage that comes first. They believe children are just "loaned to them" and that their marriage relationship matters more. So no, she doesn't see her seven children as her #1 priority. She sees it as her job to raise them and launch them, and then to live happily ever after with the man she pledged her life to.

[AussieKrissy]

52 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

I think Jed will tell the truth, whatever the question may be. I don’t anticipate him feigning ignorance like his father nor trying to obfuscate like the young Waller. 

I think you give him to much credit. I hope he proves me wrong. Waller had even less reason to muck around on the stand. He is not even a duggar. A duggar son is gunna play nice for daddy. 

[Not that josh's mom]

Having grown up in a non restrictive or abusive family, I struggle to understand Anna. I'd have walked away years ago, but I know she can't. Please know I don't want to offend anyone who had to live that kind of life. I think you are remarkably brave, even as you are having to relive some of it now. Sure wish I was better at expressing myself.

[J'emima Puddlecluck]

A heartbreaking video I found on Youtube.  An older woman seeking justice for the victims/survivors of Pest.  She never got justice for her CSA.  How sad that this stays with you as long as you live.  I can not wait until Pest is thrown into a dark dank cell forever.

 

Here's the link.  I hope the Duggar family and any other victims watch this.

Will there be justice? Josh Duggar trial and my own csa