(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[FiveAcres]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

JB saying "I won't allow it" to the judge was hilarious.  

The arrogance of telling a judge, a federal judge mind you, what he should do in his court is pretty amazing. 

[livinginthelight]

6 hours ago, Freejin said:

Maybe someone with a background in criminal justice or psychology can explain this to me:

what is going on in a person’s psyche when they know they have done what they are accused of but sit through a trial claiming they are not guilty? How do they process that psychologically? And what happens if there is a guilty verdict? Does that person have a come to Jesus moment, so to speak, where they acknowledge it to themselves?

Psychologist here. Some background before I address the question:

I definitely see Josh as psychopathic and he clearly has a sadistic streak in addition. All psychopaths look like narcissists but there is a difference.

A narcissist's goal is to have the world revolve around them. They see themselves center stage in a play in which other people are merely props, to be interacted with when they are feeding the narcissist's ego and disposed of when they are no longer useful. Narcissists have a powerful underlying fragility. When their spot at the center of the universe is challenged, a narcissist will become enraged and lash back. A certain ex-president is a classic textbook example of a narcissist.

Psychopathy and sociopathy both fall under the clinical term "Antisocial Personality Disorder". If you want to read clinical articles, Antisocial Personality Disorder is the term to look up. Some researchers say there are fine distinctions between psychopaths and sociopaths but the lines are blurry and even mental health clinicians tend to use them interchangeably.  And both are less of a mouthful than "Antisocial Personality Disorder." There is evidence that the brains of psychopaths are different. https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-events/2011/november/psychopaths-brains-differences-structure-function/  In a nutshell, the parts of the brain which regulate social and emotional behavior have less connective wiring than in the brains of normal people.

Unlike the narcissist who looks for their reflection in the mirror of others, psychopaths just plain don't give a shit about anybody or anything other than what they want. They have no moral compass and feel no guilt. A narcissist might have to do mental gymnastics to justify why they did what they did (usually involving blaming another person or circumstances): the psychopath doesn't care and mentally moves on. A psychopath truly is a different animal, with no humanity. They are excellent observers and are capable of putting on a very convincing show, including crying on cue. Therapists who work with psychopaths in prison write about the need to regularly check in with other therapists because there is a constant pull, even for professionals, to fall under the spell of the psychopaths.

This is a long way of answering the question above. But the short answer is, they sit through the trial and don't give a fuck. They have no conscience. They know what they did and don't care. There is no come to Jesus moment. They are already moving on mentally to how best to position themselves to get maximum benefits from where they are.

Edited December 4, 2021 by livinginthelight

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

The arrogance of telling a judge, a federal judge mind you, what he should do in his court is pretty amazing. 

Just imagining the rage that must have exploded in his head when he was put in his place gives me joy.  

Would have only been better had the judge been a woman. 

[FiveAcres]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Just imagining the rage that must have exploded in his head when he was put in his place gives me joy.  

Would have only been better had the judge been a woman. 

Or person of color. (I checked his photo online and he looks like a typical southern good old boy white man.)

[imokit]

Anyone think that Josh watching his all powerful father get cut in ribbons by the judge, may have been a bit of shock for him (1st of many).  He's not even in a far away prison.  He's still in Northwest Arkansas, still in Dad's neck of the woods, and already dad has lost his power.  If a judge won't listen to dad, then suddenly things got a lot more serious very quickly for him.   Daddy isn't all powerful.

[Xan]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Anna exists in a cult. Most people do not. Before she can better take care of herself and her children, she needs help getting out of the cult, and only then can she transition to a safe, healthy life for herself and the kids, on the outside. 

If I might add my opinion here -- I don't feel sorry for Anna now.  I feel sorry for the 20 year old Anna who got stuck with Josh.  I blame Jim Bob and Michelle for arranging it and I blame Anna's parents for agreeing.  They were so glad to have fundie royalty wanting their daughter that they didn't appear to investigate.  (If you want to back up a bit -- I blame most of our fundie families for brainwashing their kids and keeping them stupid.  Most of them are just set up to fail.  It should be criminal to do this to your offspring.)

Anna had no way of knowing what Josh really was until after she married him.  Now, she knows.  And she has 7 children to protect.  They should come first before any loyalty to Josh, Jim Bob, her parents, or her religion.  I grew up in an abusive home and I resented the parent who witnessed the abuse but did nothing.  That parent failed me.  Anna is failing her own children.  I reserve my sympathy for them.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

Psychologist here. Some background before I address the question:

I definitely see Josh as psychopathic and he clearly has a sadistic streak in addition. All psychopaths look like narcissists but there is a difference.

A narcissist's goal is to have the world revolve around them. They see themselves center stage in a play in which other people are merely props, to be interacted with when they are feeding the narcissist's ego and disposed of when they are no longer useful. Narcissists have a powerful underlying fragility. When their spot at the center of the universe is challenged, a narcissist will become enraged and lash back. A certain ex-president is a classic textbook example of a narcissist.

Psychopathy and sociopathy both fall under the clinical term "Antisocial Personality Disorder". If you want to read clinical articles, Antisocial Personality Disorder is the term to look up. Some researchers say there are fine distinctions between psychopaths and sociopaths but the lines are blurry and even mental health clinicians tend to use them interchangeably.  And both are less of a mouthful than "Antisocial Personality Disorder." There is evidence that the brains of psychopaths are different. https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-events/2011/november/psychopaths-brains-differences-structure-function/  In a nutshell, the parts of the brain which regulate social and emotional behavior have less connective wiring than in the brains of normal people.

Unlike the narcissist who looks for their reflection in the mirror of others, psychopaths just plain don't give a shit about anybody or anything other than what they want. They have no moral compass and feel no guilt. A narcissist might have to do mental gymnastics to justify why they did what they did (usually involving blaming another person or circumstances): the psychopath doesn't care and mentally moves on. A psychopath truly is a different animal, with no humanity. They are excellent observers and are capable of putting on a very convincing show, including crying on cue. Therapists who work with psychopaths in prison write about the need to regularly check in with other therapists because there is a constant pull, even for professionals, to fall under the spell of the psychopaths.

This is a long way of answering the question above. But the short answer is, they sit through the trial and don't give a fuck. They have no conscience. They know what they did and don't care. There is no come to Jesus moment. They are already moving on mentally to how best to position themselves to get maximum benefits from where they are.

Thank you for this.  

With your professional expertise how likely do you think it is that Anna will eventually see the light and start to prioritize her children?  

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

11 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Keep in mind he'll be going to federal prison, which I've read are safer for inmates than state pens.   And they can send him to any federal prison in the country.  Does anyone know if the feds tend to keep them local?

Federal prisons are probably more consistently and better run than many state prisons, but no pedophile in any general population is going to be left alone by inmates. Maybe low security, but he'll be heading to a medium where there will be violent criminals.

If there is room in Arkansas, he'll probably go there. If not, or they think he's better off out of state for security reasons, he'll go wherever they have the space for him. 

[Freejin]

13 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

Psychologist here. Some background before I address the question:

I definitely see Josh as psychopathic and he clearly has a sadistic streak in addition. All psychopaths look like narcissists but there is a difference.

A narcissist's goal is to have the world revolve around them. They see themselves center stage in a play in which other people are merely props, to be interacted with when they are feeding the narcissist's ego and disposed of when they are no longer useful. Narcissists have a powerful underlying fragility. When their spot at the center of the universe is challenged, a narcissist will become enraged and lash back. A certain ex-president is a classic textbook example of a narcissist.

Psychopathy and sociopathy both fall under the clinical term "Antisocial Personality Disorder". If you want to read clinical articles, Antisocial Personality Disorder is the term to look up. Some researchers say there are fine distinctions between psychopaths and sociopaths but the lines are blurry and even mental health clinicians tend to use them interchangeably.  And both are less of a mouthful than "Antisocial Personality Disorder." There is evidence that the brains of psychopaths are different. https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-events/2011/november/psychopaths-brains-differences-structure-function/  In a nutshell, the parts of the brain which regulate social and emotional behavior have less connective wiring than in the brains of normal people.

Unlike the narcissist who looks for their reflection in the mirror of others, psychopaths just plain don't give a shit about anybody or anything other than what they want. They have no moral compass and feel no guilt. A narcissist might have to do mental gymnastics to justify why they did what they did (usually involving blaming another person or circumstances): the psychopath doesn't care and mentally moves on. A psychopath truly is a different animal, with no humanity. They are excellent observers and are capable of putting on a very convincing show, including crying on cue. Therapists who work with psychopaths in prison write about the need to regularly check in with other therapists because there is a constant pull, even for professionals, to fall under the spell of the psychopaths.

This is a long way of answering the question above. But the short answer is, they sit through the trial and don't give a fuck. They have no conscience. They know what they did and don't care. There is no come to Jesus moment. They are already moving on mentally to how best to position themselves to get maximum benefits from where they are.

Thank you for this!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Federal prisons are probably more consistently and better run than many state prisons, but no pedophile in any general population is going to be left alone by inmates. Maybe low security, but he'll be heading to a medium where there will be violent criminals.

If there is room in Arkansas, he'll probably go there. If not, or they think he's better off out of state for security reasons, he'll go wherever they have the space for him. 

Perosnally I hope they send him somewhere where Anna would have to put the kids on a plane to visit.  I hate the thought of their childhoods being built around weekend visits to prison.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

10 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Perosnally I hope they send him somewhere where Anna would have to put the kids on a plane to visit.  I hate the thought of their childhoods being built around weekend visits to prison.

He may be okay with that, if he's thinks he'd like to get away from her.  Wouldn't shock me if he does. But I've heard a rumor there are pilots in the family, and JB may insist she and the kids be brought to whatever prison he's at. He probably won't be sent any further than Texas, and I think the Arkansas prison is a few hours driving distance. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

He may be okay with that, if he's thinks he'd like to get away from her.  Wouldn't shock me if he does. But I've heard a rumor there are pilots in the family, and JB may insist she and the kids be brought to whatever prison he's at. He probably won't be sent any further than Texas, and I think the Arkansas prison is a few hours driving distance. 

can't believe that when I wrote that I'd totally forgotten they had pilots and planes!

[IrishCarrie]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

can't believe that when I wrote that I'd totally forgotten they had pilots and planes!

Really??!!  News to me!

🤣

[Antipatriarch]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

lounging around at his father supplied car lot

Does JB own the car lot or did he give it to Josh? I've been wondering about that, and what happens to it when Josh goes to prison.

I think that shack should be burned to the ground, computer and all, and then the remains bulldozed into a lye pit.

[KSmom]

As far as Anna goes, she is in an incredibly tragic position and I have sympathy for that. However, she has 7 children she has a responsibility towards and that should be priority #1 for her. It’s also not like she was completely blindsided by this, she has known what Josh is for years. If this doesn’t cause her to make a break with the Josh and the Duggars, I don’t know what would. I haven’t seen it discussed but I find it very sad that she has basically been sent to court to stand by Josh with no support herself. Where are her parents or other family? Derick has been there but I highly doubt that was arraigned for Anna’s benefit. I hope she makes a break for it but, I can see it being after Josh is (hopefully) sentenced and she has a bit of time to make a plan.

Edited December 4, 2021 by KSmom
Stupid spellcheck

[SassyPants]

30 minutes ago, Xan said:

If I might add my opinion here -- I don't feel sorry for Anna now.  I feel sorry for the 20 year old Anna who got stuck with Josh.  I blame Jim Bob and Michelle for arranging it and I blame Anna's parents for agreeing.  They were so glad to have fundie royalty wanting their daughter that they didn't appear to investigate.  (If you want to back up a bit -- I blame most of our fundie families for brainwashing their kids and keeping them stupid.  Most of them are just set up to fail.  It should be criminal to do this to your offspring.)

Anna had no way of knowing what Josh really was until after she married him.  Now, she knows.  And she has 7 children to protect.  They should come first before any loyalty to Josh, Jim Bob, her parents, or her religion.  I grew up in an abusive home and I resented the parent who witnessed the abuse but did nothing.  That parent failed me.  Anna is failing her own children.  I reserve my sympathy for them.

To the highlighted, ABSOLUTELY. She should have known in 2015, 3 kids ago. Today there is absolutely no excuse for her not formulating a plan and getting out. She knows, we all know. As I’ve said for the last week, why is she wasting her time going to court? Support active spouse my ass, where’s his mother ? Make and execute the plan, NOW.

3 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

Does JB own the car lot or did he give it to Josh? I've been wondering about that, and what happens to it when Josh goes to prison.

I think that shack should be burned to the ground, computer and all, and then the remains bulldozed into a lye pit.

I think JB is smart enough to not have placed any assets in Josh’s name.

[imokit]

1 minute ago, Antipatriarch said:

Does JB own the car lot or did he give it to Josh? I've been wondering about that, and what happens to it when Josh goes to prison.

I think that shack should be burned to the ground, computer and all, and then the remains bulldozed into a lye pit.

Its closed down.  It was mentioned at (I think) the detention hearing or in some of the pretrial documents.

One of Josh's old employees now works at another car lot which is run by a Duggar brother (which one is not specified).  But Josh's car lot is closed.

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, KSmom said:

As far as Anna goes, she is in an incredibly tragic position and I have sympathy for that. However, she has 7 children she has a responsibility towards and that should be priority #1 for her. It’s also not like she was complaining blindsided by this, she has known what Josh is for years. If this doesn’t cause her to make a break with the Josh and the Duggars, I don’t know what would. I haven’t seen it discussed but I find it very sad that she has basically been sent to court to stand by Josh with no support herself. Where are her parents or other family? Derick has been there but I highly doubt that was arraigned for Anna’s benefit. I hope she makes a break for it but, I can see it being after Josh is (hopefully) sentenced and she has a bit of time to make a plan.

100% agree

[gustava]

If Jed! is on the prosecutor's witness list, then he must NOT be testifying for Josh.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

34 minutes ago, gustava said:

If Jed! is on the prosecutor's witness list, then he must NOT be testifying for Josh.

I made a mistake in posting about him some pages back, I was confusing him with Josiah as he was the one who worked with Josh at the car lot.  Now I have no idea why they'd be calling Jed, did he work there too?

I know body language isn't a perfect science, but I find it interesting.  I've watched this guy before and he's okay.  Watching it now, posting if anyone else is interested

ETA this is really good!  Starting with the proposal and he's nailing a lot of Anna and his wife is with him who is very familiar with the Duggars.  Someone watch this with me!

Watching someone unfamiliar see their handsex for the first time is hilarious.  The cringe!

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[FiveAcres]

Is it known when Jim Bob and Michelle put Josh to work in the tiny used car lot?  I am imagining the following conversation.

M: We have to find something for Josh to do during the day. The other boys will get jealous if he just stays home and does nothing.

JB: He can help the others fix up houses.

M: Yeah, but if he is driving around to job sites it will be hard to keep track of what he is doing.

JB: What about the little used car lot? He won't make much money but it would keep him out of our hair during the day. (Thinks to himself: and Josh won't be able to find any sex workers there in the country.)

M: Wouldn't he need a computer? That might be a problem.

JB: Yeah, but we will just put on Covenant Eyes like his other devices. No, I think the car lot will be ideal. How much trouble can he get into there?

Josh smiles. 

And more seriously, I wonder if Josh's flurry of activity installing Ubuntu, Bittorrent and the dark web files in May was because he didn't have a minder employee at the time.

 

 

[neuroticcat]

5 hours ago, EyesOpen said:

It’s confusing to me that dugger family official is not being monitored or shut down right now… the comments range from snarky to downright nasty. I’m all for being these people to account  in the light but … what’s going on? Do they no longer have minders? Are they just… busy and forgot they have a Facebook page and people are just trashing them? I don’t get it

I imagine they’ve just gone offline. I can see them reasoning it helps them choose joy or cultivate a forgiving spirit or whatever. Bonus is that they don’t have to deal with any of it. If they had a paid person before, maybe that person quit.

Regarding Anna, she has bizarre extenuating circumstances that make her situation unique, but she is not the only woman to be in an abusive situation with children. Some mothers leave. Some don’t. Some take advantage of the help offered to get out. Some won’t no matter how much help is offered. Some leave having no help. Some leave only to jump right in to another abusive situation.

Personally, these sort of stories upset me (for many reasons!) but in this post because I want the clear-cut explanation (I think it’s why conservatives like “individual responsibility,” because it reassures them that “I would never do that.”) But the situation is so abusive on so many levels going back for so long (I’m lumping Josh in here, too, because nurture certainly contributed) that it’s a mess.

I do think it is possible to acknowledge multiple things as true: Anna was trapped in a brainwashed cult. Anna is responsible to get her children out and should have. It makes me think a little bit of Nuremberg. Guess what? You don’t get a pass for “following orders” as a submissive wife when atrocities are going on no matter how brainwashed your community was. 
 

But I also think of the Milgram (I think?) experiments in the 60s or so when ordinary Americans were prepared to electrocute someone because a white coated man told them to. 🤷🏻‍♀️None of this is the way it is supposed to be.

[luv2laugh]

I don’t know how the Duggars are able to appear unscathed. I still feel physically ill over the content  on his devices that was shared 2 days ago. I think we have only been told that Austin (Joy?) and Derick listened to them describe it but was Anna in the room? 

Edited December 4, 2021 by luv2laugh

[PinkGreyBrown]

1 hour ago, Xan said:

I tend to think that Jim Bob is paying for lawyers to keep Josh out of jail because he's afraid of what Josh might say.  You want a tell-all book?  Josh is the one who is the most likely to blab.  Josh is the firstborn and he knows most of the secrets.  Up until now, JB has been able to buy him off because Josh is lazy and felt trapped.  If he goes off to jail, the brakes are off.  He may or may not get training in jail but I doubt he'd return to Anna.  Yeah, divorce is a no-no for the Duggars but Josh has already been identified as a bad egg.  As Dickens said, "You can't stain a black coat."  

He could find someone to co-write about all he knows, arrange to collect the money when he gets out, and off he'll go.  Josh knows he's guilty.  Jim Bob and Michelle know Josh is guilty.  The entire family knows that Josh is guilty.  Let's be honest -- Anna knows too.  It's a very knowledgeable family.  They're just hoping he gets off on a technicality or a tiny bit of doubt.  But they all know that the damage is done.  Jed's political career hopes -- gone.  Jim Bob's attempts to reenter politics -- that's gone too.  TV specials?  Up in smoke.

Josh probably won't be able to cash-in on a tell-all. That link goes to the text of the federal Son-of-Sam law that allows the prosecution to seize money made from Josh-authorized books, films, etc about Josh's story. While Josh might not care, pretty sure publishing houses do. I actually expect there are publisher's agents out there, looking to find someone inside the Duggar camp to spill all the secrets, armed with advance checks. It's only a matter of time.

[neuroticcat]

5 hours ago, Trainwreck said:

sorry if this has already been addressed, but what's really sticking out to me is that Josh downloaded TOR/Linux and CSAM all within an hour. It just seems like he knew exactly where to find what he was looking for. Does he have IRL pedo friends that showed him (barf!) or is this material that accessible (double barf!)

I think it reveals that this is highly unlikely to be his first time doing it. Right? I mean you don’t just jump into “worst” the experts have ever seen. I don’t think we could believe a word Josh says, but, if he could somehow tell the truth, I wonder if his viewing of CSA also started in his teens.

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

These kind of crimes are rarely caught the first time.  It would be incredulous to think this was his first time.

On Reddit, someone was saying average time to getting caught is thirteen years. 🤬 I think this is why he is so arrogantly pled not guilty. He has been living a double life for so long, compartmentalism or lying or whatever soul killing things you need to do to view that and interact publicly the way he has (the jokes he made on the show, the entitlement, etc,). Being addicted to that biologically changes your brain. So whatever percent was nature vs. nurture, his brain has rewired. I think this is why there is no hope for rehabilitation. The fundie garbage all sins being equal so just forgive and try harder is normalized in their world, but I hope some of them - like Vuolos for instance -  would acknowledge this and make actually wise choices about never letting him around children again and perhaps they will protect the younger children.