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(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend


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30 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

This is a great question and the honest answer is, I have no idea. A lot depends on what therapists might call "ego strength" and because I haven't ever watched the show, I have no idea how strong her most adult part of self might be. Here are some thoughts though...

When someone is raised in an environment in which stated reality does not match what the child sees/perceives with their own senses, a child starts to develop divisions within themself. Example: a child hears "God has placed men in charge of women for the good of the family. If you love God you will obey your father and your future husband and you will be blessed." But maybe dad is abusive, or maybe mother is clearly better equipped to lead the family but submits to dad's erratic whims to the detriment of the family. The child, on some level, knows that what they are seeing with their own eyes does not match what they are being told. Dad is NOT a wise and loving leader. But to question this is to question God. Who wants to do that? And to question Dad would be the same, as God has placed him in authority. The child NEEDS their parents. Alice Miller has a wonderful quote, which I couldn't find, something to this effect: The child will cling to the parents when bombs are falling, even if the parent is the bomb.

How to make sense of the dilemma? The answer is to develop internal partitions. Some therapists refer to them as "boxes". The boxes can't touch because the beliefs within them are incompatible. Another term for this is dissociation. There is a continuum of dissociation. We all dissociate some. The mild end would be like when we are at the movies and the lead character dies and we cry, even though we know it's just a story. At the other end is multiple personality disorder (now called dissociative identity disorder). People who have been abused, like Anna, usually fall somewhere in between. For example, she is probably completely unaware, consciously, of that healthy part of her that knows she was fed a load of BS and is furious. It's in a box, tucked away in a corner.

Another way of looking at Anna's dissociation is, she's in a hypnotic trance. The likelihood of the trance being broken depends on how deep and strong it is.

I agree 100% with those who said her lack of response at the trial is due to dissociation. She's not an uncaring bitch, she's literally in a trance, brainwashed by the cult. She's numb. I also agree with the person who said that anger - ANY anger, no matter where it's directed, will help bring her out of it. Exactly. Because it can ultimately connect with her anger at her whole messed-up circumstance.

Mind control is a powerful thing. Anna must be VERY dissociated. A lot of mothers, even when they don't recognize the severity of their own childhood abuse, will connect with an adult protective part/mama bear side when their children are threatened. Anna obviously didn't. Is she ultimately responsible for her lack of action? Yes. Do I have sympathy for her circumstances? Yes. It's easy to demonize her but I've worked with enough cult survivors that I get how powerful the brainwashing is.

Factors that will influence her ability to break the trance/come to her senses/protect her children include:

- How deep her programming/dissociation actually is

- Who the major voices are in her life. Is there anyone speaking the truth? Or are they repeating the party line? I know her brother was encouraging her to get out, but what is the position of her parents?

- How strong is her (hidden) sense of self? To admit the truth will be to acknowledge that her life has been built on a stack of lies. This is difficult for anyone to face.

- Does she see any viable way forward in terms of how to support 7 children? If not, it will be easier for her to live in denial.

Ultimately it comes down to whether the pressure to stay in denial is stronger than the pressure to wake up. For the sake of the children, I hope she is able to manage to listen to any people who are trying to help her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this.  Much of this resonated with me personally as well, I appreciate it.

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1 hour ago, Bassett Lady said:

I think Jed will tell the truth, whatever the question may be. I don’t anticipate him feigning ignorance like his father nor trying to obfuscate like the young Waller. 

I think he will tell the truth or hope he will tell the truth since he hopes to have a political career.  He is being called by the prosecution so there must be some information that he has that the prosecutors want to tie to the case.  

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Hey everyone, i know it's been a long time since i Have posted. 2020 got crazy for me with family issues and starting a new job. I followed some of Josh's trial this week and I decided to return to FJ. I might not post as much as I did before. I'm really disgusted with the Duggar family members who support Josh. 

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31 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

This is a great question and the honest answer is, I have no idea. A lot depends on what therapists might call "ego strength" and because I haven't ever watched the show, I have no idea how strong her most adult part of self might be. Here are some thoughts though...

When someone is raised in an environment in which stated reality does not match what the child sees/perceives with their own senses, a child starts to develop divisions within themself. Example: a child hears "God has placed men in charge of women for the good of the family. If you love God you will obey your father and your future husband and you will be blessed." But maybe dad is abusive, or maybe mother is clearly better equipped to lead the family but submits to dad's erratic whims to the detriment of the family. The child, on some level, knows that what they are seeing with their own eyes does not match what they are being told. Dad is NOT a wise and loving leader. But to question this is to question God. Who wants to do that? And to question Dad would be the same, as God has placed him in authority. The child NEEDS their parents. Alice Miller has a wonderful quote, which I couldn't find, something to this effect: The child will cling to the parents when bombs are falling, even if the parent is the bomb.

How to make sense of the dilemma? The answer is to develop internal partitions. Some therapists refer to them as "boxes". The boxes can't touch because the beliefs within them are incompatible. Another term for this is dissociation. There is a continuum of dissociation. We all dissociate some. The mild end would be like when we are at the movies and the lead character dies and we cry, even though we know it's just a story. At the other end is multiple personality disorder (now called dissociative identity disorder). People who have been abused, like Anna, usually fall somewhere in between. For example, she is probably completely unaware, consciously, of that healthy part of her that knows she was fed a load of BS and is furious. It's in a box, tucked away in a corner.

Another way of looking at Anna's dissociation is, she's in a hypnotic trance. The likelihood of the trance being broken depends on how deep and strong it is.

I agree 100% with those who said her lack of response at the trial is due to dissociation. She's not an uncaring bitch, she's literally in a trance, brainwashed by the cult. She's numb. I also agree with the person who said that anger - ANY anger, no matter where it's directed, will help bring her out of it. Exactly. Because it can ultimately connect with her anger at her whole messed-up circumstance.

Mind control is a powerful thing. Anna must be VERY dissociated. A lot of mothers, even when they don't recognize the severity of their own childhood abuse, will connect with an adult protective part/mama bear side when their children are threatened. Anna obviously didn't. Is she ultimately responsible for her lack of action? Yes. Do I have sympathy for her circumstances? Yes. It's easy to demonize her but I've worked with enough cult survivors that I get how powerful the brainwashing is.

Factors that will influence her ability to break the trance/come to her senses/protect her children include:

- How deep her programming/dissociation actually is

- Who the major voices are in her life. Is there anyone speaking the truth? Or are they repeating the party line? I know her brother was encouraging her to get out, but what is the position of her parents?

- How strong is her (hidden) sense of self? To admit the truth will be to acknowledge that her life has been built on a stack of lies. This is difficult for anyone to face.

- Does she see any viable way forward in terms of how to support 7 children? If not, it will be easier for her to live in denial.

Ultimately it comes down to whether the pressure to stay in denial is stronger than the pressure to wake up. For the sake of the children, I hope she is able to manage to listen to any people who are trying to help her.

TY so much for sharing your expertise.   That sounds about right.  Much appreciated. 

Also, being in that situation,  I mean the literal courtroom itself is stressful.  I've only done traffic court and it's icky.  It's violating.  This is the worst reason for a court case too.  Just simply being there probably has her feeling like she's in a fishbowl and wants to fight or flight naturally but she needs to block that out,  as we all do in these situations really.  It's a court room, you have to keep your shit together.  I guess fortunately she knows how to do that, thanks to ATI abuse material she grew up with. How convenient.  

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20 minutes ago, lilwriter85 said:

Hey everyone, i know it's been a long time since i Have posted. 2020 got crazy for me with family issues and starting a new job. I followed some of Josh's trial this week and I decided to return to FJ. I might not post as much as I did before. I'm really disgusted with the Duggar family members who support Josh. 

Hi!

Same.  Good to "see ya"!  Hope you're well. 

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38 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

I think you give him to much credit. I hope he proves me wrong. Waller had even less reason to muck around on the stand. He is not even a duggar. A duggar son is gunna play nice for daddy. 

This is exactly why I’m taking a wait and see approach with him. It could go either way. 

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29 minutes ago, karenb4729 said:

I think he will tell the truth or hope he will tell the truth since he hopes to have a political career.  He is being called by the prosecution so there must be some information that he has that the prosecutors want to tie to the case.  

But didn’t JB give Jed his house? Does Jed even own it at this point?

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1 hour ago, livinginthelight said:

Mind control is a powerful thing. Anna must be VERY dissociated. A lot of mothers, even when they don't recognize the severity of their own childhood abuse, will connect with an adult protective part/mama bear side when their children are threatened. Anna obviously didn't.

I really appreciate your whole post. Anna's choice of supporting a pedophile over protecting her children left me with little sympathy. You helped me take a needed step back. 

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9 hours ago, Phyllis_Stein said:

I think Josh will avail himself of some educational opportunities in prison. When he was younger, he wanted to be a lawyer. At some point he envisioned going for more education. Instead he continued to do as JB wanted and lived his secret depraved life on the side. With JB's edicts out of the way, I think he will probably go for more. He's not as smart as he thinks he is, but he isn't stupid either, and in a normal family would have pursued more education or training. Out of a need to fill his day if nothing else, he will look into it, IMO. I also agree with some of the other reasons posted above. 

I think he said he wanted to be a lawyer because he liked the idea of prestige, not because he wanted that education. He doesn't strike me as intellectually curious enough to seek out educational opportunities for the purposes of knowledge and self-improvement. I could definitely see him doing it to fill the space in his day, I just don't think he would be genuinely *interested* in it. Strikes as more of a "well I dunno what else to do" move from him.

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4 hours ago, Funwithfundies said:

"Due to helping out in other ways, I was not able to be there with Anna as much as I wanted to. I don't think any of us, not even myself, can understand what she's going through."

Someone has an awfully high opinion of her importance to the Duggar family...

 

JRod must be absolutely SEETHING right now that Hilary Spivey has elevated herself (at least in her own mind) to the level of Anna Duggar's protector and support person!

Edited by Queen Of Hearts
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9 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

Can someone with more knowledge on how this all works help me? So right now, it's looking good for him to get convicted. But isn't that just because right now it's the prosecution's turn? When the defense has their turn, won't they just have as much time to make their side look strong too? And then that's the last thing the jury will hear other than closing arguments? I am really nervous to be confident about him actually going to jail. 

Yes and no. The prosecution is making their *case in chief* but during the defense's turn, they'll still be making their case. Objections, cross-examinations, rebuttals, and closing arguments are all strategic parts of a case. The defense is currently trying to make their case. But they're doing a pretty bad job because the prosecution is pretty airtight. Not just because of the fact that it's their turn, but because it's clear that he did it and they know he did it and they can prove he did it.

That's not to say it isn't possible that he walks. But the defense isn't doing well and the prosecution is doing very well. The defense will have a chance to present a case in chief, yes, but they can't just say/do whatever they want. They'll be limited to resources, facts, etc that are admissible and relevant. They'll likely try to create an illusion of reasonable doubt, but the prosecution has already preemptively shot down a lot of those avenues by having someone testify that the PC couldn't have been accessed remotely, etc.

I'm skipping ahead to answer so not sure if anyone else already has :)

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When I was looking on some Sun articles yesterday,  one mentioned a screenshot taken with Josh's reflection visible.  I just remembered that. I believe the female detective that found him out mentioned it or the expert computer guy.  Does anyone remember that?

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It's taken me 2 days to catch up. Mr. Wolf asked if I'd been following the James Webb telescope progress. No, I've been following the Josh Duggar trial.

3 things:

1.  Have any of the children from the videos been rescued, do we know?

2.  Poor little M kids. Their Thanksgiving and Christmas memories will always be tainted by this trial, well the older ones at least.

3.  If Josh is found not guilty (God forbid) would the feds look for another perpetrator, or not bother, knowing that they got their man?

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7 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

When I was looking on some Sun articles yesterday,  one mentioned a screenshot taken with Josh's reflection visible.  I just remembered that. I believe the female detective that found him out mentioned it or the expert computer guy.  Does anyone remember that?

I remember it but I can't remember which of the experts brought it up.  The prosecution has done an excellent job of laying out the timeline.  I don't know that the defense can successfully counter that it was someone else based on the timing of everything.  The context of Josh being at the office, admitted through the texts sent to Anna and the time of the downloads makes it a stretch of the imagination to believe that someone else, somewhere else was downloading the images to Josh's computer at the car lot.  

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25 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

JRod must be absolutely SEETHING right now that Hilary Spidey has elevated herself (at least in her own mind) to the level of Anna Duggar's protector and support person!

However, my resolution is taken as to noticing Jane Fairfax.--I shall certainly have her very often at my house, shall introduce her wherever I can, shall have musical parties to draw out her talents, and shall be constantly on the watch for an eligible situation. My acquaintance is so very extensive, that I have little doubt of hearing of something to suit her shortly.

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1 minute ago, karenb4729 said:

I remember it but I can't remember which of the experts brought it up.  The prosecution has done an excellent job of laying out the timeline.  I don't know that the defense can successfully counter that it was someone else based on the timing of everything.  The context of Josh being at the office, admitted through the texts sent to Anna and the time of the downloads makes it a stretch of the imagination to believe that someone else, somewhere else was downloading the images to Josh's computer at the car lot.  

Was that the thing with the hands? they took pictures of his hands, and we thought it was odd? 

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7 minutes ago, Sabine said:

I am sad that you misunderstood me so, as clearly that is not what i said, or intended to say. 

I understood you. The perpetrator chooses the victim they think will be easiest to abuse. I am so sorry you experienced that. 

I experienced none of that. But I was bullied in school, because, well, I made an easy target. So I understood. The great thing is that they don't know how strong we can really be, and all of you who've survived these great traumas are now stronger still. 

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4 minutes ago, Sabine said:

Was that the thing with the hands? they took pictures of his hands, and we thought it was odd? 

Hmmm...maybe.  I don't think they mentioned what part of him was in the screenshot.  I assumed face for some reason but....good recall. 

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Josh Duggar’s alleged text messages prove he was at car lot when child sex abuse material was downloaded (the-sun.com)

On May 13, 2019, a photo was taken on Josh's iPhone at 3:06pm at the car lot.

Soon after, TOR browser to access the dark web was downloaded.

Then on May 14, 2019, photos were taken at the car lot at 4.14pm, 4.20pm, 4.25pm and 6.01pm.

In one of the photos, those in court could see a person's reflection in the computer screen wearing a Wholesale Motorcars hat.

ETA: Then at 4.49pm, a text from Josh's phone read "got stuck here," referring to the car lot.

Torrent files were downloaded on the Linux partition side of the computer soon after at 5.28pm and 5.38pm 

My bolding

Edited by Chickenbutt
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For everyone who has been harmed physically and emotionally by an abuser, I am so very sorry. ❤️ There are people here who are talking about it, and there are some of us who haven't put words to our experiences. I think we need to just show love and compassion and be gentle with each other over word choice or semantics. This all is really, really hard stuff.

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14 minutes ago, Sabine said:

Was that the thing with the hands? they took pictures of his hands, and we thought it was odd? 

It is horrifically common practice for them to document hands/feet/legs of offenders who are found with CSAM. Will elaborate in a spoiler because it is nauseating to think about. 

Spoiler

Once they begin to investigate files/images/videos they can identify if the offender is actually in the image (ie. producing CSAM) or if they are only in possession of/viewing. 

 

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1 minute ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

It is horrifically common practice for them to document hands/feet/legs of offenders who are found with CSAM. Will elaborate in a spoiler because it is nauseating to think about. 

  Hide contents

Once they begin to investigate files/images/videos they can identify if the offender is actually in the image (ie. producing CSAM) or if they are only in possession of/viewing. 

 

That's what I assumed. 

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23 minutes ago, Sabine said:

I was the weakest scapegoat in my family. I was the smallest, youngest, child, the one everyone could abuse. 

(...)

I am sad that you misunderstood me so, as clearly that is not what i said, or intended to say. 

I want to start by saying that I am so, so sorry for what you experienced. It's never okay. Of course some abusers target perceived 'weak' targets. But I think the issue that came about from your first statement is saying that's generally the case. Every abuser is different, every situation is different, but a wide variety of people are targeted. My abuser had a thing for breaking down strong personalities. He targeted the loudest, strongest, most confident people in the room. For three years until I left, he eroded that confidence until when I left I had almost none left. This is pretty common.

I'd recommend 'Why Does He Do That' by Lundy Bancroft, he talks about the different types of abusers and who they target and how they act. It helped me come to terms with a lot of what happened to me.

I don't think you meant any offense or harm at all, and you were speaking out of your experiences, which is what we all do by instinct. So no offense was taken by me. I hold only love and hope for healing in my heart for you and I totally understand what you were trying to say. And to be fair, I'd imagine Pest more resembles your abuser(s) than mine. 

Unfortunately no experience with abuse is universal, we can all only try to meet each other where we are at on our healing journeys.

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