(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[Shrubbery]

54 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Or taking the fall for the first board favorite son. Have we discussed that? I could see JB ordering one of the lesser sons to do so. Does the ‘instantly obey’. model end at 18 or marriage?

I don’t see that - one of the other sons taking the fall for Joshley would still mean admitting that a fruit of JB‘s mighty loin committed a crime, and JB can’t want that.

I can, though, see him trying to pressure someone dependent on him (like possibly Jed) into testifying that yeah, it was totally possible and even super-likely that that-other-guy did all that stuff on Josh‘s computer, with Josh‘s phone, pretending to be Josh, texting Josh’s wife, or whatever they think will fly.

[Hera]

I honestly don’t see why Josh would return to the warehouse post-prison (assuming he’s convicted…) The only reason he does it now is because he’s afraid of his father and too lazy to stand on his own two feet. Prison will change that. 
 
While in prison, Josh will be exposed to people from vastly different backgrounds and with vastly different thoughts and experiences, likely for the first time. (Even in DC he was surrounded by mostly white, fundy-lite and evangelical types who all at least pretended to tow the Jesus line. Not so in prison.)

Josh obviously doesn’t believe in the cult bullshit. He will have ample time with his thoughts and the anger and contempt barely beneath the surface will simmer up. I can absolutely see him bailing on Anna and the family upon release. I see that as far more likely than him simply returning back to fundy life, tbh.

 

 

[Bobology]

2 hours ago, Xan said:

Eventually, it seemed to occur to Jim Bob that maybe Josh had very strong urges and that he needed to get him married off as soon as possible.  How many families did he contact about future brides?  Were there many rejections before he settled on the Kellers?  And what was it?

It could be that JB targeted suggested the Kellers because of Mike's (Anna's dad) prison ministry. Wouldn't a prison minister expect the possibility of CHRISTIAN prisoners to redeem themselves and turn into law-abiding decent people? If so, then Mike (and by extension Mike's wife and daughter) know that Josh could behave and be a provider? It might have been one of JB's more clever control moves.

[Giraffe]

I don't see Josh taking any classes in prison. He's done nothing to demonstrate he cares about furthering his education and I don't see prison miraculously changing that.   

 

[anjulibai]

Something I noticed in the video of Josh and Anna leaving, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that Anna kept looking up at Josh over and over. He was obviously ignoring her, but she seemed to be expecting something. 

[Antimony]

15 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Can someone with more knowledge on how this all works help me? So right now, it's looking good for him to get convicted. But isn't that just because right now it's the prosecution's turn? When the defense has their turn, won't they just have as much time to make their side look strong too? And then that's the last thing the jury will hear other than closing arguments? I am really nervous to be confident about him actually going to jail. 

You gotta consider cross. 

The defense has had ample opportunity to cross-examine all prosecution witnesses, and will continue to do so. And, frankly, they're not doing a great job of it. Just because it's the prosecution's turn doesn't mean the defense isn't already building a case. 

Similarly so for the defense. The prosecution will have a chance to cross-examine all defense witnesses. I can't even tell who the defense witnesses are. The prosecution has a huge witness list, including the Holts and Jill. The Defense is calling...four people.

The Defense witness list, according to McCandless;

Quote

The analysis of the defense’s list covered four possible witnesses. Two are investigators hired by the defense that they state will provide “non-hearsay factual testimony.”

Another is a computer forensics expert, and the last is a witness that had access to Duggar’s office and the computer at issue in the case.

That's a really weak witness list compared to the prosecution. And the prosecution gets to cross examine them all. The last witness may or may not be hostile because like...rough to be testifying that you're the one who also had access to the Crime PC. 

Plus, there's always closing statements. 

One other angle that is a little messy is that let's say an imagined jury member isn't totally convinced by the computer evidence. They may be very swayed by the Holt/Jill testimony because it's emotional. Prosecution is blending fact and feeling in a really strong case together. Defense has not been able to do so. 

If the Defense going last made a big difference, we'd see more people get off and we don't see that in our criminal system. It's just the order because you can't defend against an argument that hasn't been presented to you. 

[Bobology]

There is always (not just this week, but for the past 6 years or so) talk of Anna being offered help to get out by one or two of her siblings. Did either of those siblings publicly offer help to Anna during the time/following Josh's arrest, or now during the trial? Anna has 7 kids now rather than 4, but still... are any family members still offering help? And if help is offered through social media might that be more of a blustery bravado-hero offer than an offer, with a plan, of true help?

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

35 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

In prison he will find out no one knows or cares he used to be a tv star golden boy. 

Having been on a cable TV show may actually cause even more negative attention in his direction. As it is, he'll need to huddle up with brother pedophiles and try to stay away from other inmates to the extent possible. Prison isn't safe for men like Josh.

[FiveAcres]

8 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

Something I noticed in the video of Josh and Anna leaving, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that Anna kept looking up at Josh over and over. He was obviously ignoring her, but she seemed to be expecting something. 

The body language in that video is striking, isn't it? I find it disturbing to watch. It isn't just Anna in her supplicant pose hanging onto him with both hands. Perhaps the lawyers are are also trying to get Josh out of public view before he does something drastic, like take a swing at the photographers or pushing his wife in public. After all, the lawyer are probably used to dealing with guys with significant impulse control and anger management issues. Joshy Boy has been forced to be a good boy in court for many hours a day and days on end. It's a lot to ask of a guy who is used to lounging around, doing nothing all day, and being waited on hand and foot by his womenfolk. If he is starting to fear that he is not going back to his hated, but familiar life, it has to be terrifying for those around him. 

[VanillaBean]

26 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Can someone with more knowledge on how this all works help me? So right now, it's looking good for him to get convicted. But isn't that just because right now it's the prosecution's turn? When the defense has their turn, won't they just have as much time to make their side look strong too? And then that's the last thing the jury will hear other than closing arguments? I am really nervous to be confident about him actually going to jail. 

After the defense rests, the prosecution can call witnesses to rebut the defense witnesses. So that will ne the last thing the jury hears. Similarly, the government will give its closing argument,  then the defense will do its,  and then the government can argue again. So the last thing the jury hears will be the prosecution. 

[anon710]

13 minutes ago, Antimony said:

You gotta consider cross. 

The defense has had ample opportunity to cross-examine all prosecution witnesses, and will continue to do so. And, frankly, they're not doing a great job of it. Just because it's the prosecution's turn doesn't mean the defense isn't already building a case. 

Similarly so for the defense. The prosecution will have a chance to cross-examine all defense witnesses. I can't even tell who the defense witnesses are. The prosecution has a huge witness list, including the Holts and Jill. The Defense is calling...four people.

The Defense witness list, according to McCandless;

That's a really weak witness list compared to the prosecution. And the prosecution gets to cross examine them all. The last witness may or may not be hostile because like...rough to be testifying that you're the one who also had access to the Crime PC. 

Plus, there's always closing statements. 

One other angle that is a little messy is that let's say an imagined jury member isn't totally convinced by the computer evidence. They may be very swayed by the Holt/Jill testimony because it's emotional. Prosecution is blending fact and feeling in a really strong case together. Defense has not been able to do so. 

If the Defense going last made a big difference, we'd see more people get off and we don't see that in our criminal system. It's just the order because you can't defend against an argument that hasn't been presented to you. 

I'm wondering if that last person, to have had access to the computer, is Jed! and that is why he's on the witness list. 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by anon710

[Antimony]

10 minutes ago, anon710 said:

I'm wondering if that last person, to have had access to the computer, is Jed! and that is why he's on the witness list. 

 

Both Jed! and Caleb Williams are being called so it's a really hard call who is testifying for which side on those two, for me, since I think they both count as "had access to the computer"

[luv2laugh]

Some people are saying Josh is not a psychopath but is a pedo (in different forums and comments etc) but I disagree. Someone who is viewing CSAM is obviously a pedo, but he views sadistic torture. He is a sadist and someone that is receiving pleasure at watching those who do not consent to being violently abused has to be devoid of empathy like a psychopath, not merely a sadist.  Ted Bundy committed his crimes because he enjoyed people suffering against their will. I would be afraid to be in a room alone with Josh.

Edited December 4, 2021 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

32 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

The body language in that video is striking, isn't it? I find it disturbing to watch. It isn't just Anna in her supplicant pose hanging onto him with both hands. Perhaps the lawyers are are also trying to get Josh out of public view before he does something drastic, like take a swing at the photographers or pushing his wife in public. After all, the lawyer are probably used to dealing with guys with significant impulse control and anger management issues. Joshy Boy has been forced to be a good boy in court for many hours a day and days on end. It's a lot to ask of a guy who is used to lounging around, doing nothing all day, and being waited on hand and foot by his womenfolk. If he is starting to fear that he is not going back to his hated, but familiar life, it has to be terrifying for those around him. 

He is basically pulling her along. He wanted to GTFO of that situation.

[Italiangirl]

1 hour ago, Freejin said:

 

Guys. How are we going to deal with having to wait so long for a verdict??

And does anyone know if any of the Duggars went to the bates wedding?

Jer and Hannah were at the Bates wedding, they have photos with Alyssa and John and can be seen in the attendance from pics of the flower girls going down the aisle 

[SassyPants]

I also wonder if some of Josh’s not leaving or standing up to his dad is extreme passive aggressive behavior on his part. For example, even though he is miserable with his circumstances, he sticks around, sucking off his father’s teat, living in his father’s warehouse, using his sister babysitters, lounging around at his father supplied car lot. Josh has had a lot of time to be lazy and get himself into trouble, all on his daddy supplied dime. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Anna exists in a cult. Most people do not. Before she can better take care of herself and her children, she needs help getting out of the cult, and only then can she transition to a safe, healthy life for herself and the kids, on the outside. 

Fuck it - not worth trying to explain anything when it comes to this.

[just want to note I'm editing this post within the time frame allowed by any user to edit, no special mod powers involved.]

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
no fucking point

[PinkGreyBrown]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Wonder if JB had her sign a NDA

The discussion about Amy's non-disclosure agreement (NDA) was new to me -- does anyone know any of the who/what/why she's signed an NDA? Was it a TLC thing? NDAs are primarily a work-related thing, it's rather unusual for private individuals to have other private individuals sign them.

NDAs are only as good as the lawsuits backing them up. For example, Trump has gotten away with abusive use of NDAs for decades, in large part because he was so infamously litigious. Is that true of Jim Bob? Does he sue people? A lot? I kinda thought the point of all the cult conditioning was so the predators benefiting from the structure don't have to futz around with stuff like NDAs.

& finally, NDAs don't apply to criminal conduct & cannot be deployed in court to cover up criminal acts, fwtw.

[Xan]

I tend to think that Jim Bob is paying for lawyers to keep Josh out of jail because he's afraid of what Josh might say.  You want a tell-all book?  Josh is the one who is the most likely to blab.  Josh is the firstborn and he knows most of the secrets.  Up until now, JB has been able to buy him off because Josh is lazy and felt trapped.  If he goes off to jail, the brakes are off.  He may or may not get training in jail but I doubt he'd return to Anna.  Yeah, divorce is a no-no for the Duggars but Josh has already been identified as a bad egg.  As Dickens said, "You can't stain a black coat."  

He could find someone to co-write about all he knows, arrange to collect the money when he gets out, and off he'll go.  Josh knows he's guilty.  Jim Bob and Michelle know Josh is guilty.  The entire family knows that Josh is guilty.  Let's be honest -- Anna knows too.  It's a very knowledgeable family.  They're just hoping he gets off on a technicality or a tiny bit of doubt.  But they all know that the damage is done.  Jed's political career hopes -- gone.  Jim Bob's attempts to reenter politics -- that's gone too.  TV specials?  Up in smoke.

[hoipolloi]

9 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

NDAs don't apply to criminal conduct & cannot be deployed in court to cover up criminal acts, fwtw.

This is a key point.

If there had been a prior *civil *court case involving allegations against Josh or JB that resulted in a confidential settlement, that information might still be protected from disclosure, but IANAL so I don't know for sure. 

[SassyPants]

11 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

The discussion about Amy's non-disclosure agreement (NDA) was new to me -- does anyone know any of the who/what/why she's signed an NDA? Was it a TLC thing? NDAs are primarily a work-related thing, it's rather unusual for private individuals to have other private individuals sign them.

NDAs are only as good as the lawsuits backing them up. For example, Trump has gotten away with abusive use of NDAs for decades, in large part because he was so infamously litigious. Is that true of Jim Bob? Does he sue people? A lot? I kinda thought the point of all the cult conditioning was so the predators benefiting from the structure don't have to futz around with stuff like NDAs.

& finally, NDAs don't apply to criminal conduct & cannot be deployed in court to cover up criminal acts, fwtw.

Hasn’t JB been involved in suing regarding the media exposure of Josh’s previous behaviors? The kind of man that JB is and his apparent love of money leads me to believe that he would stop at nothing to protect assess and future assets.

When I mentioned Anna and a NDA, I was speaking about her selling the story, not in terms of the legal case.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Having been on a cable TV show may actually cause even more negative attention in his direction. As it is, he'll need to huddle up with brother pedophiles and try to stay away from other inmates to the extent possible. Prison isn't safe for men like Josh.

Keep in mind he'll be going to federal prison, which I've read are safer for inmates than state pens.   And they can send him to any federal prison in the country.  Does anyone know if the feds tend to keep them local?

[FunFunFundie]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Hasn’t JB been involved in suing regarding the media exposure of Josh’s previous behaviors? The kind of man that JB is and his apparent love of money leads me to believe that he would stop at nothing to protect assess and future assets.

I mean, he was demanding that the judge not allow *witness testimony* about what happened under his roof because it was tabloid nonsense or whatever. So, he definitely thinks he does and can control the narrative.

[EyesOpen]

Yes I think JB is litigious. I think he’s been involved in many cases about his properties etc and yes I suspect they had everyone sign documents wayyyy back when we still could feel sorry for an impressionable Anna and I doubt she had any idea what she was signing

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, FunFunFundie said:

I mean, he was demanding that the judge not allow *witness testimony* about what happened under his roof because it was tabloid nonsense or whatever. So, he definitely thinks he does and can control the narrative.

JB saying "I won't allow it" to the judge was hilarious.