(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[feministxtian]

14 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Everyone makes mistakes in life. Sounds like your daughter has really turned it around, which isn't easy to do. 6 figures? That's amazing.

She has a BS and MS in Information technology and is currently the IT project manager for her company. She's finishing up the class for the project manager certification. So, yeah, she's definitely got her head on sorta straight...now if only they'd stop with the yard that looks like a junkyard...

 

[PinkGreyBrown]

Trial's supposed to start November 30. Criminal trials are typically fairly quick, a week or two at most, mostly. (Individual data points varying widely & all that.) This one seems like it'll be a week or less, there's not much to it. Should be done by Pearl Harbor Day, most like.

If* he's convicted, he's probably gonna appeal it, that would be my bet. If JB is underwriting the initial fight he's prolly in-for-a-dime-in-for-a-dollar on the whole ride. Smug'll get remanded into custody upon conviction but then bailed back out for the appeal, maybe?

* I tend to think this is gonna be a slam-dunk conviction mostly cuz Smug's too foolish to realize making the jurors watch (excerpts of) the CSA images is horrifying & that the jury will probably hate it. Sure, yeah, he's got all the Venn-diagrams of privilege protecting him but sacrificing Golden Children™ is a thing, & the occasional such buttresses notions of fairness. He's crossed a line with the general public. His fellow fundies might entertain warped definitions of stuff but I'm pretty sure this won't fly with a jury, they'll happily throw him in prison for a decade or so. I'll be officially shocked & appalled if not.

[Bassett Lady]

45 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

His fellow fundies might entertain warped definitions of stuff but I'm pretty sure this won't fly with a jury, they'll happily throw him in prison for a decade or so

 

 

I am fundie adjacent with most of my family in the full on Fundie universe. 

These are tin foil hat wearing folks in most areas. The universal comments I have heard about Josh want to see him convicted and sent away for decades to protect his children. 
 

These same relatives all feel sorry for Jim Bob and Michelle. They see them as parents who did “everything they could” but that boy has “thrown away every opportunity.” None of them share my view that they bear responsibility for the debacle because of the way they handled the abuse/sexual assault when he was a teen. 
 

Everyone has mentioned sorrow and pity for Anna and his poor children. Not a single one has blamed Anna for the CSA use by Josh. A few have mentioned that she should not have taken him back into the home after his “rehab” stint. These same folks, who denounce divorce, almost universally, now think she should get a divorce on Biblical grounds. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Bassett Lady

[ToriAmos]

3 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

I am fundie adjacent with most of my family in the full on Fundie universe. 

These are tin foil hat wearing folks in most areas. The universal comments I have heard about Josh want to see him convicted and sent away for decades to protect his children. 
 

These same relatives all feel sorry for Jim Bob and Michelle. They see them as parents who did “everything they could” but that boy has “thrown away every opportunity.” None of them share my view that they bear responsibility for the debacle because of the way they handled the abuse/sexual assault when he was a teen. 
 

Everyone has mentioned sorrow and pity for Anna and his poor children. Not a single one has blamed Anna for the CSA use by Josh. A few have mentioned that she should not have taken him back into the home after his “rehab” stint. These same folks, who denounce divorce, almost universally, now think she should get a divorce on Biblical grounds. 

Well that is all good to hear, thank you for sharing. It's reassuring to know most peeps aren't so far out on the insane-o-meter.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, Jesquire said:

I had this exact thought. It was so confusing and sad for me when I thought not only did God allow the Holocaust, but all those people were going to hell anyway. It's so so jacked up.

At least Catholics would send the un-baptized who had done no wrong to “limbo.” 😉  (That’s what I was taught when I was a kid.  I think it’s different now, and both “limbo” and “purgatory” have been decommissioned.)

[Cults-r-us]

11 hours ago, feministxtian said:

 

I don't see Smuggar being that self aware that he fucked up but good.

Not only does he lack self-awareness, but I fear he lacks insight and the motivation to change. Therapy will only help if he is motivated to get well. Is he capable if comprehending that he "fucked up but good"?

On a different note, I've had some thoughts about Anna. She's not without job skills after all. She could send McKenzie, Marcus, Michael and Meredith to the ebil Tonitown public school, open the Windowless Warehouse Daycare, employ girl J-howlers and make.bank. There might be fencing left from the Reber fence job for her yard. Their experience homeschooling could help market early childhood education.

[SassyPants]

15 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

Not only does he lack self-awareness, but I fear he lacks insight and the motivation to change. Therapy will only help if he is motivated to get well. Is he capable if comprehending that he "fucked up but good"?

On a different note, I've had some thoughts about Anna. She's not without job skills after all. She could send McKenzie, Marcus, Michael and Meredith to the ebil Tonitown public school, open the Windowless Warehouse Daycare, employ girl J-howlers and make.bank. There might be fencing left from the Reber fence job for her yard. Their experience homeschooling could help market early childhood education.

IDK…I think Josh’s crimes (or alleged) might taint her prospects for having an in home daycare. Would you want your kids attending Duggar Daycare? Hard pass from me.

[Cults-r-us]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

IDK…I think Josh’s crimes (or alleged) might taint her prospects for having an in home daycare. Would you want your kids attending Duggar Daycare? Hard pass from me.

I guess I envisioned him long gone  she'll have to unbrand.

[zee_four]

7 hours ago, feministxtian said:

She has a BS and MS in Information technology and is currently the IT project manager for her company. She's finishing up the class for the project manager certification. So, yeah, she's definitely got her head on sorta straight...now if only they'd stop with the yard that looks like a junkyard...

 

I know a long time ago we talked a couple times about this topic, but the more you post I think your daughter and I have a lot in common. I never committed fraud, I fed my addiction at first by dating dealers or working st strip clubs, sometimes both. I managed to hold onto serving jobs and while I've been fired too many times to count, I lasted a lot longer than I had any right to at some places.

 

I want to give a shout out to your daughter for the life she's put back together. I don't think people understand how difficult it is as a convicted felon after you've completed sentencing and whatever jail time/probatoon/parole. People still won't hire you even if they're legally allowed to. Background checks are so common most entry level minimum wage crsppy service industry jobs at any big chain do Background checks and Google make everyone a click away from every sordid detail of your past making it sooo much harder to move on in a healthy successful way. I remember I went through a super morbid period about my life being completely over and having no hope, while on probation. The weird obsession the old creepy "reporter" for the only local "news" paper ensured that there were never ending, chock full of details that lacked any facts in a small town. I got death threats when I left my house went to the store etc. A lot by new seasonal arrivals who claimed the kid who died from multiple drug intoxication was their super bestest friend. He'd only lived there a couple months and we took the bus to amd from work together, hung out at the bar with the same friend after and rode together on our days off. I'd never seen any of these people in my life. Still it was impossible to find a job, the police made the violent rape I was victim of disappear so no matter how bad the stalking and threats got from others I was on my own.

 

Housing is hard to find, it used to be just big corporate type apartment complexes that did background now people subletting a room in their basement for a couple months run background checks. Forget anything for low income people even if you qualify on every requirement except the background check. 

 

It feels like you're not human anymore like you're lesser. I hate those MAGA idiots going on and on about their rights being taken. Try having your rights actually taken, some places you can't vote, you have no physical privacy having to strip naked, be watched while you pee, being strip searched whenever it was demanded of you. Then you get out and your experience is invalidated. Someone wants to complain in a group for assault victims about let's say the body scanners that shoe your physical form, they have that right. But if you try to join the conversation about observed UAs, strip searches, etc you hear, well you shouldn't have done ____ (whatever your charge was) so that's your fault. 

You come back to a community that by and large justifies how your rights were systemically stripped and degraded and while the tiniest violation of rights to a non convict is legit. What happens to you in the system, even in probation outside of jail, is legit, is excused and is blamed on you.

 

Im just trying to express that internal struggle when you're finally off paper thats just as horrifying and debilitating as the external factors and blocks put in place of people getting out of the system face just trying to live the most basic semblance of life post prison/parole.

I'm almost halfway through graduate school for social work now and my goal is to be a substance abuse and mental health counselor for underserved populations and design treatment tailored to these groups needs, women, other indigenous people, those with disabilities etc.

 

I won't make 6 figures and its been a battle, I was banned from doing my field experience in undergrad because I had 6 months left of probation after 7 1/3 years and they knew it when I enrolled and said it wouldn't be a problem but the teacher had major issues with me, she was very anti prison reform let's say, and I got kicked out of the social work program. I created my own human service type degree with women and gender studies, criminal justice, public health and other courses and prayed grad school would let me in sans actual BSW. After my few years break to make more money I applied and was accepted.

 

Your daughter is a freaking Rockstar and I really admire her to have come so far!!!

[Jackie3]

7 hours ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

Trial's supposed to start November 30. Criminal trials are typically fairly quick, a week or two at most, mostly. (Individual data points varying widely & all that.) This one seems like it'll be a week or less, there's not much to it. Should be done by Pearl Harbor Day, most like.

 

Even if the deadline passed on this offer, the feds could still put another offer on the table. So a trial is not inevitable.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, zee_four said:

Your daughter is a freaking Rockstar and I really admire her to have come so far!!!

Thank you. I am so proud of her (in case you can't tell). She's busted her ass to get to where she is. She and her dog lived in her car for awhile because she couldn't find a place that would take her with the felony record AND the dog. She still has the dog, sweet Jack. But, it's been a struggle for a good little while. She's an absolutely amazing person.

[AussieKrissy]

3 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

Not only does he lack self-awareness, but I fear he lacks insight and the motivation to change. Therapy will only help if he is motivated to get well. Is he capable if comprehending that he "fucked up but good"?

On a different note, I've had some thoughts about Anna. She's not without job skills after all. She could send McKenzie, Marcus, Michael and Meredith to the ebil Tonitown public school, open the Windowless Warehouse Daycare, employ girl J-howlers and make.bank. There might be fencing left from the Reber fence job for her yard. Their experience homeschooling could help market early childhood education.

Not a fucking chance would I send my child to a place with a women “who stood by her pedo man” no fucking way would I trust her to protect my child when she gives no fucks about her own. I don’t think I would be the only one who would feel the same. I Dunno if she would be successful. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by AussieKrissy
Edit to add. I see someone already said this lol

[zee_four]

13 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Not a fucking chance would I send my child to a place with a women “who stood by her pedo man” no fucking way would I trust her to protect my child when she gives no fucks about her own. I don’t think I would be the only one who would feel the same. I Dunno if she would be successful. 

Maybe in fellow IFB circles she would be. I mean it's way more important that she believes in biblical misogy- gender roles and has never touched let alone read a non KJV bible, than silly things like supporting her husband's violations of and sexual preference for pre-pubescent girls.

[AussieKrissy]

3 minutes ago, zee_four said:

Maybe in fellow IFB circles she would be. I mean it's way more important that she believes in biblical misogy- gender roles and has never touched let alone read a non KJV bible, than silly things like supporting her husband's violations of and sexual preference for pre-pubescent girls.

Sadly true but hopefully these families would only pay her in thoughts and prayers and she would go belly up. 

[Miranda]

21 minutes ago, zee_four said:

Maybe in fellow IFB circles she would be. I mean it's way more important that she believes in biblical misogy- gender roles and has never touched let alone read a non KJV bible, than silly things like supporting her husband's violations of and sexual preference for pre-pubescent girls.

Women in her IFB circles don't work outside the home, so they wouldn't be in need of daycare. 

[Nike]

7 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

Not only does he lack self-awareness, but I fear he lacks insight and the motivation to change. Therapy will only help if he is motivated to get well. Is he capable if comprehending that he "fucked up but good"?

On a different note, I've had some thoughts about Anna. She's not without job skills after all. She could send McKenzie, Marcus, Michael and Meredith to the ebil Tonitown public school, open the Windowless Warehouse Daycare, employ girl J-howlers and make.bank. There might be fencing left from the Reber fence job for her yard. Their experience homeschooling could help market early childhood education.

I wouldn’t wish for the younger duggar girls to be used for child minding, especially because JB would be taking the profits from that too.

[allyisyourpally5]

Anna in reality needs to put the oldest kids in school and get any kind of day job that ideally includes some level of health insurance. How is Arkansas for welfare? Would she qualify for any help towards housing? Or is their a property in her name under all these dealings? 
 

I know this won’t actually happen. I highly doubt she has made any sort of plan for a guilty verdict. I doubt any Duggar has.

[Tangy Bee]

Unpopular opinion, but I think public school would be hell for the older kids. Parents tend to talk around their kids and it won't take long before the bullying starts. I remember being tormented half my life because of bad decisions my dad made. Kids can be relentless & awful beings. Would a Christian school be better? I've never attended a private Christian school. Can anyone share any previous experiences? Or are there little bully farts there as well?

[Bassett Lady]

15 hours ago, ToriAmos said:

most peeps aren't so far out on the insane-o-meter.

Oh, they are looney bins nuts about almost everything from RABID Trumpism, to preparing for the coming fall and building survivalist facilities. There is no man made climate change and these new “rMna vaccines are dangerous.” (The misspelling of m-RNA was purposefully included from a text.) 

 

They are nuts about almost everything, but even they find Josh abhorrent.  They are worried about what he might have done to his children and want him locked away from civilization. They throw around words like unrepentant, degenerate, and quote Romans 1 and classify him as a reprobate.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 

So, when they start throwing around the word reprobate and unrepentant depravity along with an admission that he sought out, kept, and “used” child sexual assault material, then he is facing a larger fundamentalist community that is no longer “drinking the Josh Kool-aid. 

 

[Sullie06]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:36 PM, patsymae said:

One of my brothers became a fundie, He said the hardest thing for him to get his head past was that you could be the most horrible, evil person in this world if you accepted Jesus as your personal savior you would be saved, but if you were the most decent, kind, loving person in the world if you were a Buddhist you would go to hell for all eternity. He said it was hard for him to accept that. My response is it should be hard to accept that because it's ridiculous and disgusting.

Sigh,

OK I;m a dinosaur. Back in the dark ages the NJ prison system set aside a special unit for these kinds of abusers. It was the first of its kind.  The idea was well figure out how it happened and figure out what to do to make sure it doesn't happen again, And IIRC, what was learned is you just can't change these Mofos, You just cant.
People who work with that population here comment on therapy, etc., so is there really therapy that works.

It really is an offender to offender basis. We have people who complete the specialized treatment plan we have in our county and have no re-offending behavior and then we have offenders who can't even make it through the treatment without reoffending. 

On 10/26/2021 at 10:04 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Oh, I agree. But their whole circle has tons of kids, so he won’t be able to get even minimal social interactions. Maybe he won’t care, or maybe it’s a good excuse not to hang around being shunned. 

I know for our SO's we the court typically words it as he's allowed no voluntary unsupervised contact with anyone under 18. So he may be allowed to attend family events with other children but he cannot be unsupervised with them. 

[Alisamer]

39 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

Unpopular opinion, but I think public school would be hell for the older kids. Parents tend to talk around their kids and it won't take long before the bullying starts. I remember being tormented half my life because of bad decisions my dad made. Kids can be relentless & awful beings. Would a Christian school be better? I've never attended a private Christian school. Can anyone share any previous experiences? Or are there little bully farts there as well?

Honestly a Christian School might be worse. On top of regular bullying they'd get the "and your dad is going to hell!" proclamations and such. A public school will have a huge variety of kids from a variety of different backgrounds. A Christian school is going to have a higher percentage of holier-than-thou Bible thumpers who are likely to be a lot more judgy. 

 I don't think there is an option that would be "best" for the kids - every option has major drawbacks. I think in the long run a public school would be good for the kids educationally and in life experience - getting to personally know people different than you can only be a good thing IMO. There would probably be some bullying, but there's always the chance of that. 

Anna's probably just going to keep doing what she's doing now, just with visits less often than they likely are at the Rebers. It's what she's supposed to do. She'll get rewarded in heaven. No matter how hellish life on earth is. 

[Sullie06]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:59 PM, BensAllergies said:

My acquaintance from college who is currently serving time in federal prison for fraud has several years of “supervised release” when he gets out. I’ve also been curious how/if that is different from parole.

 

 

So parole involves release from incarceration before the end of a sentence where Supervised Release is an additional term of supervision that must be completed after a person completes his or her term of federal custody.

My understanding is anyone sentenced after November 1, 1987 to federal time is not eligible for Parole. 

As for the actual supervision, it's pretty similar. 

[SassyPants]

The thing is, according to Gothard and the Bible of JB, whose responsibility is it to provide for Anna and Josh’s quiver while Josh is away? 
We can all agree that instead of growing her family, Anna should have been expanding her education and earning potential. Maybe cosmology school or getting her real estate license would be a good fit? Maybe JB could employ her, like he did Ben. JB foisted Josh onto her, and no doubt encouraged the irresponsible reproduction. Wonder if he paid more per child produced?

Ann should also apply for all available family aid. I’m sure JB would be all over that. Probably would even pocket part of the money. What a mess. 

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Not a fucking chance would I send my child to a place with a women “who stood by her pedo man” no fucking way would I trust her to protect my child when she gives no fucks about her own. I don’t think I would be the only one who would feel the same. I Dunno if she would be successful. 

I think childcare is one area Anna should stay out of. She might be better off cleaning houses or getting a minimum wage retail job.

1 hour ago, Tangy Bee said:

Parents tend to talk around their kids and it won't take long before the bullying starts. I remember being tormented half my life because of bad decisions my dad made. 

No need to overhear parental conversations. Mack is 12, and Michael is around 10. Their peers have access to the internet, in fact, most 12-year olds around here have phones. Their classmates would have all the details about the CSA at their fingertips to torment the older Ms.

I'm really sorry you had to pay a price for your dad's bad decisions. That is so unfair.

[Bassett Lady]

The Springfield Arkansas community college has a Respiratory Therapist program. It is an associates degree that leads to full certification. 
 

My neighbor’s daughter just finished her associate’s degree in RT and she just got a job at $48,000 a year with no experience. Plus, it is regular hours, indoors, air conditioned, great insurance, matching the first 8% retirement plan, and starting with three weeks vacation. 
 

Anna could accomplish that degree if the family stepped up and helped take care of the kids.  They most likely won’t, but they could and they should.